Pros and Cons: Thunderball

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  • FiremassFiremass AlaskaPosts: 1,910MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    That's interesting- if it's not too personal what do you do?
    (It played a strong part in getting me into music, which is my career)

    If you don't mind me speaking out of turn, he mentioned in an above post that he made a living as a commercial diver.

    They try to disguise the depth by clever camera angles but as every pro and maybe amateur diver knows, the underwater World becomes mostly black and white in relatively shallow water 55 feet. 

    Thanks for providing your unique perspective on the underwater scenes. Very interesting.
    My current 10 favorite:

    1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 37,861Chief of Staff
    Firemass wrote:
    If you don't mind me speaking out of turn, he mentioned in an above post that he made a living as a commercial diver.

    Thanks Firemass, I missed that! :)
  • UnderwaterBattle007UnderwaterBattle007 Posts: 284MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    That's interesting- if it's not too personal what do you do?

    (It played a strong part in getting me into music, which is my career)

    I became a Commercial Diver. Not as glamorous as diving in the Bahamas, but it paid well.
    FRWl, CR, OHMSS, TSWLM, SF, GF, TLD, LTK, TND, FYEO, OP,TWINE, GE, LALD, TB, SPECTRE, DN, YOLT, TMWTGG, QOS, MR, DAF, DAD, AVTAK, NTTD.

    "Do you expect me to talk? "No Mister Bond I expect you to die"
  • UnderwaterBattle007UnderwaterBattle007 Posts: 284MI6 Agent
    edited January 2017
    Firemass wrote:
    Barbel wrote:
    That's interesting- if it's not too personal what do you do?
    (It played a strong part in getting me into music, which is my career)

    If you don't mind me speaking out of turn, he mentioned in an above post that he made a living as a commercial diver.

    They try to disguise the depth by clever camera angles but as every pro and maybe amateur diver knows, the underwater World becomes mostly black and white in relatively shallow water 55 feet. 

    Thanks for providing your unique perspective on the underwater scenes. Very interesting.

    If you watch all the underwater sequences in both TB and YOLT you can clearly see the surface being only a few meters above the Divers/actors head.

    Also the Fin (flipper) that floats up in one sequence in TB is entirely wrong.

    If air had got into it, the Fin would have gone up with the heal part at the bottom, if that makes sense.

    They have either filmed that with fishing line attached lifting it up, or they have filmed it being dropped down and then just reversed the footage.

    I would have loved to have been a diver/actor in TB, what a blast that must have been for those guys, and getting paid as well.

    Now I've pointed some of this stuff out I hope it doesn't spoil your enjoyment of those scenes/films.
    FRWl, CR, OHMSS, TSWLM, SF, GF, TLD, LTK, TND, FYEO, OP,TWINE, GE, LALD, TB, SPECTRE, DN, YOLT, TMWTGG, QOS, MR, DAF, DAD, AVTAK, NTTD.

    "Do you expect me to talk? "No Mister Bond I expect you to die"
  • Mr SnowMr Snow Station "J" JamaicaPosts: 1,736MI6 Agent

    If you watch all the underwater sequences in both TB and YOLT you can clearly see the surface being only a few meters above the Divers/actors head.

    Also the Fin (flipper) that floats up in one sequence in TB is entirely wrong.

    If air had got into it, the Fin would have gone up with the heal part at the bottom, if that makes sense.

    They have either filmed that with fishing line attached lifting it up, or they have filmed it being dropped down and then just reversed the footage.

    I would have loved to have been a diver/actor in TB, what a blast that must have been for those guys, and getting paid as well.

    Now I've pointed some of this stuff out I hope it doesn't spoil your enjoyment of those scenes/films.

    Not at all, having scuba dived myself I believe it gives one more of an appreciation.

    Totally agree with you diver/actor - talk about a dream job.

    Interesting you mention Fin (flipper); when I did my scuba diving course the first thing the instructor said was fins are called fins and not flippers. And a mask is a mask and not goggles. A misquote from any of the 'students' would have costed you an alcoholic beverage (he was just joking of course but something I remembered).

    I've already given my pros and cons and rankings as to why Thunderball is my No.1 pick (not only the film and the soundtrack also) but the fact there is so much underwater action would have definitely had an influence on me.

    As for the camouflaging of the Vulcan, it may seem like it goes on for a while but it is one of the scenes I really enjoy. The accompanying music and the whole atmosphere just seems to blend in so well.
    "Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974; It's a scientific fact". - Homer J Simpson
  • DiabolikDiabolik TexasPosts: 117MI6 Agent
    Just finished Thunderball for the uh, 20th time or so?

    Some years ago I considered this my favorite film of the entire franchise, how things change. It's still entertaining, but damn does the final act drag. I can make the same complaint about several Bond movies, but at least they have dialogue to spice up the action. Nevertheless it has top-shelf Bond girls, Domino and Fiona are knockouts, some very iconic moments and pretty amazing dialogue. In the end I will call it a middle-of-the-road Bond movie, one that used to enchant me but that has gotten less interesting with each viewing.
    1.TSWLM 2.LTK 3.YOLT 4.OHMSS 5.TWINE 6.LALD 7.MR 8.GE 9.DN 10.FRWL
    Bond: Pierce Brosnan Villain: Hugo Drax Girl: Pam Bouvier
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 37,861Chief of Staff
    I suppose my view is coloured through rose-coloured glasses, since I first saw TB on the big screen in the 1960s (sorry, can't specify exactly which year, I was very young) and fell in love with it completely. It's one of the Bonds that work best on the big screen and suffer on home viewing, and my frequent viewings of it are inevitably filtered through my memories of seeing it in the cinema.
    I'm not blind to its faults, but believe its strengths outweigh them. I've listed them before http://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/45309/pros-and-cons-thunderball/page/2/ and stand by that. For those of us old enough to remember Bondmania at its peak, TB has a special place.
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    I suppose my view is coloured through rose-coloured glasses, since I first saw TB on the big screen in the 1960s (sorry, can't specify exactly which year, I was very young) and fell in love with it completely. It's one of the Bonds that work best on the big screen and suffer on home viewing, and my frequent viewings of it are inevitably filtered through my memories of seeing it in the cinema.
    I'm not blind to its faults, but believe its strengths outweigh them. I've listed them before http://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/45309/pros-and-cons-thunderball/page/2/ and stand by that. For those of us old enough to remember Bondmania at its peak, TB has a special place.

    "[O]ld enough to remember Bondmania at its peak...." Count me in! Still count TB as one of the best, in large part because of Connery's performance, the outstanding Bond Girls, and some pretty spectacular visuals. I realize there are some folks around here who will dismiss me as just an old fart stuck in his ways (hi Higgins!), but so be it!
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,619MI6 Agent
    You guys are just old farts stuck in your ways :D

    Who cares what happened in your youth ( before WWII) deal with the the spirit of the future :p
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • KabraxalKabraxal Posts: 104MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    I suppose my view is coloured through rose-coloured glasses, since I first saw TB on the big screen in the 1960s (sorry, can't specify exactly which year, I was very young) and fell in love with it completely. It's one of the Bonds that work best on the big screen and suffer on home viewing, and my frequent viewings of it are inevitably filtered through my memories of seeing it in the cinema.
    I'm not blind to its faults, but believe its strengths outweigh them. I've listed them before http://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/45309/pros-and-cons-thunderball/page/2/ and stand by that. For those of us old enough to remember Bondmania at its peak, TB has a special place.

    "[O]ld enough to remember Bondmania at its peak...." Count me in! Still count TB as one of the best, in large part because of Connery's performance, the outstanding Bond Girls, and some pretty spectacular visuals. I realize there are some folks around here who will dismiss me as just an old fart stuck in his ways (hi Higgins!), but so be it!

    Pssssh. It is one of my favourites and I certainly didn't see it live. You just have good taste ;)
    Top Ten Bond - 10:Goldfinger 9:Thunderball 8:The Spy who Loved Me 7:For Your Eyes Only 6: Casino Royale 5:The Man with the Golden Gun 4:Quantum of Solace 3:Licence to Kill 2:Goldeneye 1:The Living Daylights
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,610MI6 Agent
    Thunderball certainly has its weaknesses, but when it's good it's the best Bond can be. I've never understood complaints about Connery being bored in this film because he couldn't seem better (apart from the obvious toupee).
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 37,861Chief of Staff
    Higgins wrote:
    You guys are just old farts stuck in your ways :D

    Who cares what happened in your youth ( before WWII) deal with the the spirit of the future :p

    Somebody help me out of this rocking chair so I can fetch my walking stick and chase after this cheeky young rascal.
  • DiabolikDiabolik TexasPosts: 117MI6 Agent
    Matt S wrote:
    Thunderball certainly has its weaknesses, but when it's good it's the best Bond can be. I've never understood complaints about Connery being bored in this film because he couldn't seem better (apart from the obvious toupee).
    Dare I say that it's Connery's best performance in the role? Or at the very least his best written dialogue. The lines are killer.

    Also I doubt many can argue this isn't one of the best moments in the series:

    1463651407571.jpg
    1.TSWLM 2.LTK 3.YOLT 4.OHMSS 5.TWINE 6.LALD 7.MR 8.GE 9.DN 10.FRWL
    Bond: Pierce Brosnan Villain: Hugo Drax Girl: Pam Bouvier
  • Mr_OsatoMr_Osato Posts: 398MI6 Agent
    Absolutely! I love it when Bond is a total sexist bastard :D At least I admit it!! It is so politically incorrect, it's brilliant!
    OHMSS, FRWL, DN, GF, CR, GE, SP, YOLT, TB, TSWLM, LALD, TLD, TND, FYEO, SF, MR, TMWTGG, TWINE, OP, AVTAK, DAF, LTK, QOS, DAD

    1. Connery 2. Craig 3. Brosnan 4. Dalton 5. Lazenby 6. Moore
  • DiabolikDiabolik TexasPosts: 117MI6 Agent
    Mr_Osato wrote:
    Absolutely! I love it when Bond is a total sexist bastard :D At least I admit it!! It is so politically incorrect, it's brilliant!
    I miss chauvinist Bond so much, and I don't like how they've turned him into a mostly monogamous guy who respects women. I don't have to agree with his behavior to enjoy it, and boy do I love it. It cracks me up.

    But I suppose modern audiences would get too triggered and whine about it on Facebook so it's a no go. Thanks a lot feminists X-(
    1.TSWLM 2.LTK 3.YOLT 4.OHMSS 5.TWINE 6.LALD 7.MR 8.GE 9.DN 10.FRWL
    Bond: Pierce Brosnan Villain: Hugo Drax Girl: Pam Bouvier
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,610MI6 Agent
    Diabolik wrote:
    Mr_Osato wrote:
    Absolutely! I love it when Bond is a total sexist bastard :D At least I admit it!! It is so politically incorrect, it's brilliant!
    I miss chauvinist Bond so much, and I don't like how they've turned him into a mostly monogamous guy who respects women. I don't have to agree with his behavior to enjoy it, and boy do I love it. It cracks me up.

    But I suppose modern audiences would get too triggered and whine about it on Facebook so it's a no go. Thanks a lot feminists X-(

    Daniel Craig still thinks Bond is a misogynist, so you can't please everyone.
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • DiabolikDiabolik TexasPosts: 117MI6 Agent
    Matt S wrote:
    Daniel Craig still thinks Bond is a misogynist, so you can't please everyone.
    One of many reasons he's my least favorite Bond. I remember reading about him saying things like there need to be more "empowering roles for women" in the series, as if there haven't been any before. He sure is one indoctrina-, uh, I mean educated man
    1.TSWLM 2.LTK 3.YOLT 4.OHMSS 5.TWINE 6.LALD 7.MR 8.GE 9.DN 10.FRWL
    Bond: Pierce Brosnan Villain: Hugo Drax Girl: Pam Bouvier
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,610MI6 Agent
    Diabolik wrote:
    Matt S wrote:
    Daniel Craig still thinks Bond is a misogynist, so you can't please everyone.
    One of many reasons he's my least favorite Bond. I remember reading about him saying things like there need to be more "empowering roles for women" in the series, as if there haven't been any before. He sure is one indoctrina-, uh, I mean educated man

    I'm all for empowering roles for females, but those indeed go back a long way, starting with Amasova in TSWLM. Dr Goodhead in MR is one of my favourite Bond girls because of how she is even more skilled than Bond is in many ways. These days the more empowered female characters tend to always come across as annoying, like all of the women in the Brosnan films who aren't villains.
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • DiabolikDiabolik TexasPosts: 117MI6 Agent
    Matt S wrote:
    I'm all for empowering roles for females, but those indeed go back a long way, starting with Amasova in TSWLM. Dr Goodhead in MR is one of my favourite Bond girls because of how she is even more skilled than Bond is in many ways. These days the more empowered female characters tend to always come across as annoying, like all of the women in the Brosnan films who aren't villains.
    I think what screenwriters and producers have forgotten is that a good strong woman should also be feminine. Most of these tough chick characters nowadays just act like men stuck in attractive female bodies, or are so insecure that they must constantly remind the male characters how awesome and independent they are. Take Rey in the recent Star Wars movie, getting mad because a man would dare grab her hand while running away. How dare he presume to help her, my soggy knees!
    1.TSWLM 2.LTK 3.YOLT 4.OHMSS 5.TWINE 6.LALD 7.MR 8.GE 9.DN 10.FRWL
    Bond: Pierce Brosnan Villain: Hugo Drax Girl: Pam Bouvier
  • Mr_OsatoMr_Osato Posts: 398MI6 Agent
    Goodhead and Amasova where great Bond girls. Nothing wrong with that. But don't make Bond so politically correct. Let him smoke like a chimney, drink his booze and come up with hilarious one liners. One of the best was actually with Dr Goodhead: 'a woman(!).' Brilliant and hilarious, and so was Dr Goodhead's snappy comeback. :D More of that please...
    OHMSS, FRWL, DN, GF, CR, GE, SP, YOLT, TB, TSWLM, LALD, TLD, TND, FYEO, SF, MR, TMWTGG, TWINE, OP, AVTAK, DAF, LTK, QOS, DAD

    1. Connery 2. Craig 3. Brosnan 4. Dalton 5. Lazenby 6. Moore
  • DiabolikDiabolik TexasPosts: 117MI6 Agent
    Mr_Osato wrote:
    Goodhead and Amasova where great Bond girls. Nothing wrong with that. But don't make Bond so politically correct. Let him smoke like a chimney, drink his booze and come up with hilarious one liners. One of the best was actually with Dr Goodhead: 'a woman(!).' Brilliant and hilarious, and so was Dr Goodhead's snappy comeback. :D More of that please...
    Political correctness and social justice propaganda is everywhere in Western cinema these days, it's really annoying. Television is even worse

    Anyway, Goodhead is indeed a great Bond girl, and I really love the scene where Bond is going through all of her gadgets. Her expressions and witty replies are wonderful. That's something Christopher Wood really excels at, writing repartee.
    1.TSWLM 2.LTK 3.YOLT 4.OHMSS 5.TWINE 6.LALD 7.MR 8.GE 9.DN 10.FRWL
    Bond: Pierce Brosnan Villain: Hugo Drax Girl: Pam Bouvier
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,610MI6 Agent
    Diabolik wrote:
    Anyway, Goodhead is indeed a great Bond girl, and I really love the scene where Bond is going through all of her gadgets. Her expressions and witty replies are wonderful. That's something Christopher Wood really excels at, writing repartee.

    I fully agree. The new Bond films could have used a lot more of that, Casino Royale especially.
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • Mr_OsatoMr_Osato Posts: 398MI6 Agent
    Diabolik wrote:
    Mr_Osato wrote:
    Goodhead and Amasova where great Bond girls. Nothing wrong with that. But don't make Bond so politically correct. Let him smoke like a chimney, drink his booze and come up with hilarious one liners. One of the best was actually with Dr Goodhead: 'a woman(!).' Brilliant and hilarious, and so was Dr Goodhead's snappy comeback. :D More of that please...
    Political correctness and social justice propaganda is everywhere in Western cinema these days, it's really annoying. Television is even worse

    Anyway, Goodhead is indeed a great Bond girl, and I really love the scene where Bond is going through all of her gadgets. Her expressions and witty replies are wonderful. That's something Christopher Wood really excels at, writing repartee.

    I actually think TV is getting better, movies worse. Mad Men for example is more realistic than most of the movies they make these days. But yeah, in general agree: that is why I will always enjoy the older movies over the new Bond movies, despite that they are in general well made: I am just lacking a lot of 'fun' in them. I want to be Connery, I want to be Brosnan and on occasion I want to be Moore. I never want to be Craig, although he does a good job: it is not the way I want to see Bond.
    OHMSS, FRWL, DN, GF, CR, GE, SP, YOLT, TB, TSWLM, LALD, TLD, TND, FYEO, SF, MR, TMWTGG, TWINE, OP, AVTAK, DAF, LTK, QOS, DAD

    1. Connery 2. Craig 3. Brosnan 4. Dalton 5. Lazenby 6. Moore
  • DiabolikDiabolik TexasPosts: 117MI6 Agent
    Mr_Osato wrote:
    I actually think TV is getting better, movies worse. Mad Men for example is more realistic than most of the movies they make these days.
    Mad Men is great, but it's an exception. In my opinion, TV peaked in the 90s, a time when writing and acting in television shows had vastly improved but before the rise of Reality TV and "grim," "edgy" shows that HBO popularized. I suppose some people like that kind of stuff, but I'll take a fun escapist adventure over a dark realistic thriller any day. The problem is that escapism has become something of a lost art, all there is now are superhero shows/movies about boring cardboard characters running/flying around in latex. No thank you
    Mr_Osato wrote:
    But yeah, in general agree: that is why I will always enjoy the older movies over the new Bond movies, despite that they are in general well made: I am just lacking a lot of 'fun' in them. I want to be Connery, I want to be Brosnan and on occasion I want to be Moore. I never want to be Craig, although he does a good job: it is not the way I want to see Bond.
    I'll make no secret of it, I dislike Craig's Bond and am indifferent to the last four films. For all the hate it gets, I'd rather have another Die Another Day than another Craig outing. As stupid as it was, at least it was fun. I think Spectre was a big improvement over Craig's first three movies but still it seemed like something was missing.

    But back on topic, it's like night and day watching one of the new films and then going back and seeing Connery blackmail a woman for sex in Thunderball. It's damn refreshing on top of being really funny, and the film's greatest strengths are these moments with the Bond girls.
    1.TSWLM 2.LTK 3.YOLT 4.OHMSS 5.TWINE 6.LALD 7.MR 8.GE 9.DN 10.FRWL
    Bond: Pierce Brosnan Villain: Hugo Drax Girl: Pam Bouvier
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    Diabolik wrote:
    Mr_Osato wrote:
    Goodhead and Amasova where great Bond girls. Nothing wrong with that. But don't make Bond so politically correct. Let him smoke like a chimney, drink his booze and come up with hilarious one liners. One of the best was actually with Dr Goodhead: 'a woman(!).' Brilliant and hilarious, and so was Dr Goodhead's snappy comeback. :D More of that please...
    Political correctness and social justice propaganda is everywhere in Western cinema these days, it's really annoying. Television is even worse

    Anyway, Goodhead is indeed a great Bond girl, and I really love the scene where Bond is going through all of her gadgets. Her expressions and witty replies are wonderful. That's something Christopher Wood really excels at, writing repartee.

    I think there are a number of things that make many of today's films somewhat less enjoyable than films of the past - over-reliance on special effects, lame sex jokes, too many sequels, prequels and remakes, stunt-casting. But I don't have a problem at all with injecting a little "social justice " every now and then. About time if you ask me.
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • IcePakIcePak Perth, Western AustraliaPosts: 177MI6 Agent
    I just rewatched Thunderball and it has risen in my opinion, like Goldfinger recently. Sure, the film has it's problems - the underwater sequences are slow and dull (they kind of mirror the space laser battle in Moonraker - grandiosity for grandiosity's sake), the story lacks tension, the film's pace is erratic in places, especially in the second act, most of the secondary cast is one dimensional, Domino is underdeveloped, and the climax borders on the ridiculous. Still, as one reviewer put it, the film is basically about Bond being Bond. And there's nothing wrong with that. The slow unfolding of the story while Bond is at Shrublands echoes the slower pace of the earlier films, which I love, and is fun to watch. Connery is on fine form and he is really enjoying himself here. He's such a joy to watch as Bond. Fiona Volpe is a great villain, even if she is underused, and the locations are beautiful and exotic. Importantly the film oozes with the same style Terrance Young introduced in Dr No. It might lack the appeal of some of the series' other films, but I'm beginning to understand why many view it as a classic.
    1. CR 2. OHMSS 3. GE 4. TLD 5. OP 6. FRwL 7. FYEO
    8. TMwtGG 9. AVtaK 10. TSWLM 11. SF 12. LtK 13. TND 14. YOLT
    15. NTtD 16. MR 17. LaLD 18. GF 19. SP 20. DN 21. TB
    22. TWiNE 23. DAD 24. QoS 25. DaF
  • Sword Of DamoclesSword Of Damocles Posts: 17MI6 Agent
    'Thunderball' is a nightmare of poor editing, poor dubbing and poor pacing. Yet because of Connery, the brilliant dialogue and the sheer beauty of the whole film it stands up as an incomplete success
    Diabolik wrote:
    Mr_Osato wrote:
    Goodhead and Amasova where great Bond girls. Nothing wrong with that. But don't make Bond so politically correct. Let him smoke like a chimney, drink his booze and come up with hilarious one liners. One of the best was actually with Dr Goodhead: 'a woman(!).' Brilliant and hilarious, and so was Dr Goodhead's snappy comeback. :D More of that please...
    Political correctness and social justice propaganda is everywhere in Western cinema these days, it's really annoying. Television is even worse

    Anyway, Goodhead is indeed a great Bond girl, and I really love the scene where Bond is going through all of her gadgets. Her expressions and witty replies are wonderful. That's something Christopher Wood really excels at, writing repartee.

    Interesting what people have said about strong female characters, sexism and political correctness. The 'good old days' of Bond seducing a woman (Pam) to buy his silence are still with us. As late as 'Spectre' Bond prays on a vulnerable woman who expects to die any time soon. He doesn't really have time to bed her, but does so anyway.
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    Diabolik wrote:
    Mr_Osato wrote:
    Goodhead and Amasova where great Bond girls. Nothing wrong with that. But don't make Bond so politically correct. Let him smoke like a chimney, drink his booze and come up with hilarious one liners. One of the best was actually with Dr Goodhead: 'a woman(!).' Brilliant and hilarious, and so was Dr Goodhead's snappy comeback. :D More of that please...
    Political correctness and social justice propaganda is everywhere in Western cinema these days, it's really annoying. Television is even worse

    Anyway, Goodhead is indeed a great Bond girl, and I really love the scene where Bond is going through all of her gadgets. Her expressions and witty replies are wonderful. That's something Christopher Wood really excels at, writing repartee.

    I think there are a number of things that make many of today's films somewhat less enjoyable than films of the past - over-reliance on special effects, lame sex jokes, too many sequels, prequels and remakes, stunt-casting. But I don't have a problem at all with injecting a little "social justice " every now and then. About time if you ask me.
    I agree. The problem is two-fold: PC is an umbrella term that has lost much meaning because it gets tossed around for any social or political issue someone doesn't agree with; people often lose sight of what is happening contextually when they apply it.

    In the case of Bond's chauvinism, for instance, the women can be just as chauvinistic in TB. Fiona sees herself superior to men, for instance, and uses her sexuality to manipulate and murder them. For all the ballyhoo about Bond and Fearing, she, too, uses her sexuality to buy Bond's silence, in addition to being attracted to him in the first place and even more so after their conjugation. In the context of the storytelling, Bond isn't a sexist pig so much as savvy enough to work his own environment. He exists in a world of beautiful women whose sexuality is their power and who are used to using it to control men (or women).

    But Bond turns this around. Notice that his behavior is never so among women who don't exhibit such as their primary attribute. The best example is Moneypenny, to whom he is quite kind and protective, despite her school girl crush. If he were the sexist pig as too often simplistically claimed, his behavior toward her would be no different than to other women. In fact, he'd likely take advantage of her sexually, regardless of whether he found her attractive. All women would be treated with equal contempt.

    The scenes in both the Mustang and with the slippers in TB are therefore important for their context. Fiona sees herself as Bond's superior, while the film treats them as equals. That's why their one-upping each other is so amusing. They are the same person but on opposite sides, with one essential difference. The film makes it clear that Fiona has a strong resentment toward men, for which Bond becomes the primary focus. (In the olden days, this often would be construed as she is a lesbian.) But Bond doesn't resent women. He plays them to his advantage no differently than they would him. But he doesn't resent them.

    In order to support some political or intellectual argument, rhetoricians have to be reductive, often oversimplifying things to fit an agenda. Unless you've been living under a rock, certainly by the time you reach your teen years, you've noticed that people use their sexuality to get what they want -- both men and women. Those that have this strength can use it kindly or maliciously. Bond lives in a world of liars, killers, and manipulators. It's rather silly to assume that he's going to play nice with them -- and vice versa -- regardless of the fantasy nature of the stories. Yet, as the hero, he has the good judgment to know when to use it and when not to. To apply to Bond or the other characters the same expectations of such things as sexual politics is equally silly. They're not representative of average people, even if average people, too, can behave in this way. That's one reason why the various PC arguments about Bond often seem trite. Bond isn't the average guy on the street, nor does he live in that world, even if as a flesh-and-blood character in the best of the stories he loves, hurts, and bleeds like the rest of us.

    Other "PC" elements can get more grounding, though, because there may not be contextual parity. For instance, we can make something of the racism in Bond because we rarely if ever see the non-white characters exhibiting the same expectations and behaviors nor do they operate at the same station. This is often more clear in the books than the films. Bond is outright racist in the book Goldfinger, for instance, demonstrating pathologically hateful attitudes toward all Koreans, with almost no context for why. There are hints of this in the film, but they are largely scrubbed. We don't get an analog Korean character who goes on about the inherent ugliness, stupidity, and inferiority of the white characters, though. In the book, it's just accepted as the natural order of things for whites to be superior and for Bond to assume this role as a privileged white male. He has similar attitudes about the "Chigroes" in the book Dr. No.

    So, some PC elements can still be explored because the structure of the narrative treats them very differently than the "sexism" issues. In addition, there's a long history of such discussed in both the academic and popular literature. To some degree we see this as the Bond films have evolved over the years -- the casting of non-white Leiter and Moneypenny characters, for instance, though as with many western conceits, it goes to the cliche of focusing only on Black and White for race.
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 37,861Chief of Staff
    Wonderful post, GM. As ever, of course.
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    You're a good man, sir.
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