She recognises his name as the British agent who had been sent to bring her father to justice, but who allowed him to "take the decent way out" rather than face a court martial. This is taken from Fleming.
Damn I forgot about that part, she converses with Bond about it after he sneaks into her room. Even so I can still understand why that would make her far more open to his advances.
That entire scene is brilliantly acted by Moore. Seduction is her aim, but he's still sticking to the job at hand.
Bond interrogating Orlov is a great scene, but the reaction of the soldier when Bond shoots him, ruins the scene.
You have got to be kidding me…. he gets shot in the head and falls back dead with that stunned look of surprise on his face. Poor kid…couldn't have been more than 19 years old and probably an honest Russian soldier. Bond whirled around and didn't hesitate to kill. One of the best and most startling cold blooded kills in the whole series. Also an excellent way to cap off the brilliant interrogation scene with Orlov.
...And they say that Roger Moore doesn't do serious/murderous acts in any of his movies. There, that was one of them which didn't count as the main villain.
So my Bond marathon continues with Octopussy. So it's a while since I've seen the film and I have to say I enjoyed it better than I thought I would. After the harder Bond in FYEO we are plunged back into a MR type Camp feeling, with the exceptions of some scenes which are both graphic and gritty. For Example the PTS is a great start to the movie with the death of 009. Virtually all of the train fight scenes especially Bond killing Russian soldiers one straight between the eyes. However if we compare those scenes to the fight sequences at the end of the film in Octopussy's palace, which for me felt more like fight sequences from the 1960's Batman TV series. All those fight sequences were missing was "Ker Pow", "thud" etc type exclamations.
The story to the film is really strong, I think the screenplay writers did a good job. This was released in 1983, then a year later Frederick Forsyth releases his Spy novel entitled "The Fourth Protocol" which fundamently is just the same story line as appears in Octopussy.
The film tips it's hat to Goldfinger in that the Villain is cheating in a game for high stakes. Also a very "Oddjob" moment when Gobinda crushes the loaded dice as opposed to a golf ball.
The whole auction scene is great, and how Bond follows the egg is also very good.
On the negative I loved FYEO as we saw a gritty Moore Bond, in this we are back to the humorous Moore Bond. Moore is starting to show his age, and looks every year of the 56 years he was at the time of release.
Not Moore's worst Bond movie, I've seen six of them at the moment and I would rate them in the following order with AVTAK still to come:
Pros:
.Very interesting plot. Little convoluted though.
.The locations in India and Germany.
.Cold War vibe.
.Entire cast.
.Vibrant cinematography.
.General Orlov.
.The twins.
.Bigger role for Q.
.Penelope Smallbone. :x
Cons:
.The finale is a little bloated.
.The gorilla costume.
PROS
-a bit more Fleming content, mostly Property of a Lady, and the Blades scene from Moonraker. The title story is there, but reduced to a couple lines of dialog establishing the title character's back-story.
-the PoaL adaptation is very loose, but that's ok, because Fleming's story was pretty thin stuff, and the character Maria Freudenstein had been described as so ugly and undesirable her only choice in life was to sell out to the Soviets. Cinematically a good choice to replace her with the sexy Magda, now there is a lady.
The extrapolations from this story make up most of the first half of the film.
-continues the stripped down cold war intrigues of the previous film. Sort of. In between other scenes.
-George McDonald Fraser (Flashman) is credited with the script, though Wikipedia claims he only wrote the first draft. Anybody know how much of the story is his?
-a lot of swashbuckling and exoticism, I think inspired by the recent Raiders of the Lost Ark
-India is a new setting, and adds much to the colourful palette of the film. Though it looks like a very romanticised, westerner's fantasy version of India, especially with the palaces, the barge, and the elephant hunt.
-whole lotta jiggling going on. Octopussy's island is much like Paradise Island from Wonder Woman, encouraging the same speculations as to what those women get up to, where no men are allowed.
-which reminds me: Magda wears a lot of skimpy flowing robes in the first half of the movie, which she always seems to be leaving in a trail behind her.
-...and, the octopus shaped bed. Its not just shaped like an octo-pussy: upon close inspection (we get several clear shots during the attempted assassination scene) it has a single round pillow mounted on the headboard, about a foot above the bed, in the centre. And is framed by long flowing drapes, almost like some type of hood. Certainly reminds me of something and its not a sea-creature?
-Gogol is back, and more or less a good guy again. His philosophical differences with Orlov forshadow similar debates we will see with Dench-M and war-hungry military types in later movies.
-I like the sequence of consecutive chase sequences we get in the later scenes. Especially the train and the circus. Very tense stuff, and unlike some films most of it is directly relevant to the plot.
-I like Moore in the clown costume. It really works, adds to the confusion. the circus scene is one of the best ticking timebomb sequences in the whole series, and would not work if Moore just showed up in his usual three piece suit.
CONS
-I've watched this film many times and still have no idea what the story is really all about.
-continues the rambling overlapping episodic plot structure of the previous film. But this time a bit too much, because I don't think this one makes any sense.
- a lot of stoopid Benny Hill level sex humour, which we haven't really seen for the last the last two films. Was this Fraser's contribution? He writes a lot of silly sex scenes in his novels, but they're usually a lot funnier and more original than this. Flashman getting laid inevitably sets up him up for some major unintended consequences.
-Vijay is very distracting and not funny. Maybe if I cared about tennis I'd care about the in-jokes? the market chase is much too silly already, following the change in tone of the previous film its a step backwards.
-Q in the field. I think to compensate for the absence of Bernard Lee (the new M hardly does the job of replacing him). I always like Llewelyn, but the added scenes are much too silly and do not add to the story.
-the hot air balloon. More stoopidity, and adds to the 19th century colonial-era fantasy version of India.
-the whole film is so literally colourful. Maybe the most brightly coloured of any Bond film. Not a bad thing in and of itself, but completely contradicts the gritty cold war tale that it wants to be. Even the Berlin scenes are dominated by the circus imagery. like the film is confused as to its own purpose.
in fact I'm not even sure all my observations count as pros or cons, the film seems so confused as to what it wants to be. Probably its just me who wants it to be something other than what it is.
The real question is how did he changed into that outfit in like 2 minutes?? ?
this is a very good question. I believe he has less than five minutes left when he arrives at the Circus, so he not only puts on a clown costume but applies the correct makeup? all he needed to do was change to a shirt that wasn't red!
-the whole film is so literally colourful. Maybe the most brightly coloured of any Bond film. Not a bad thing in and of itself, but completely contradicts the gritty cold war tale that it wants to be. Even the Berlin scenes are dominated by the circus imagery. like the film is confused as to its own purpose.
in fact I'm not even sure all my observations count as pros or cons, the film seems so confused as to what it wants to be. Probably its just me who wants it to be something other than what it is.
This is something I have wondered about. Who's bright idea was it to mix Cold War Berlin with exotic colorful India? Does it work?
(actually The Living Daylights follows a similar pattern too)
Even when I want OP to be grim, it still doesn't meet expectations due to most of the Berlin scenes being at the circus. It was only after I watched the German film Wings of Desire that I realized the circus actually was an integral part of life for the city.
You raise an interesting question, should the film be faulted for being something other than what we want it to be?
My current 10 favorite:
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
-I've watched this film many times and still have no idea what the story is really all about.
This is a can of worms that I'm hesitant to reopen, but I totally feel the same way.
At the very least, the film could have been more clear about IF Kamal even noticed the egg was a fake. (I don't think he ever did)
Or why Orlov was so sure the egg he smashed was fake? Because he was wrong! (Again confusing)
Or end the film with the genuine egg being returned to Gogol instead of the "Romanov Star"
My current 10 favorite:
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
I have to be in the right mood for OP because it has a LOT of dopey moments. But it's beautiful looking, the music is by Barry, and the bad guys are excellent. In the correct mood (and a Martini or two) it's grand fun.
can't believe I forgot this amongst my PROs. The Barry content outranks the Fleming content (because the Fleming content is very slight). It may not be so distinctive as his 60s scores, but it is lush and romantic, and he teases the main Bond theme with many variations. Always good to have Barry back.
You raise an interesting question, should the film be faulted for being something other than what we want it to be?
I should probably just accept it as the brightly coloured Bond film set in India with a palace full of scantily clad beauties ... then I would get exactly the film I want!
it may just be in retrospect that I, and others, go in expecting a followup to FYEO. Perhaps because the same director did the two Dalton films? But maybe at the time FYEO was seen as a one-off, and the filmmakers were inspired by other things in the meantime (specifically Raiders of the Lost Ark)
anyway, I'm reminded anecdotally Octopussy was where I checked out, until the hype of Goldeneye twelve years later. I was becoming an artfilm snob, and this film disappointed me at the time, and its followup looked even worse so I didn't bother. Ironic you should mention Wings of Desire, because that's exactly what I was watching in the late 80s, instead of giving Timothy Dalton a chance.
I see upthread people have been trying to explain the plot to one another, so I'll just shut up and read instead of complaining.
The plot of OP (I've seen this many many times):
The Faberge' egg is used to do something, but it gets copied and Octopussy has something to do with it. Kamel Khan is working with Orlov to help him strike at the West to help him take control of Russia from the more cool-headed dudes there. A bomb gets diffused in a pretty damn good tense scene. Bond has a fight outside a train (after Orlov gets karma-ized), and a small plane, and Q gets lots of hugs from Octopussy's attractive acrobatic girls.
See, this is why I like the film so much- every time I watch it it's like seeing a new movie I've never seen before. )
-I've watched this film many times and still have no idea what the story is really all about.
This is a can of worms that I'm hesitant to reopen, but I totally feel the same way.
At the very least, the film could have been more clear about IF Kamal even noticed the egg was a fake. (I don't think he ever did)
Or why Orlov was so sure the egg he smashed was fake? Because he was wrong! (Again confusing)
Or end the film with the genuine egg being returned to Gogol instead of the "Romanov Star"
Bond switched the real egg at auction for the fake one 009 recovered, so Kamal buys the fake egg back without realising it. When Bond reveals his egg (the real one, now with a tracking device) to Kamal at the casino, Kamal wasn't sure which egg he has and orders Magda to steal Bond's egg. Or perhaps Kamal thinks it's the fake egg and still wants it back since it was stolen in the first place. Either way, he wants both eggs. It doesn't matter that Bond switched the eggs, since Kamal would have wanted to steal either. Kamal, now with both in his possession, is able to figure out which is the real egg and which is the fake egg. Orlov destroys the real egg, and Kamal's expression shows that he knows that Orlov destroyed the wrong egg. Bond could never have returned the genuine egg because it was destroyed. Bond would not have tried to recover the real egg because he could hear in the listening device that is was destroyed.
Bond could never have returned the genuine egg because it was destroyed. Bond would not have tried to recover the real egg because he could hear in the listening device that is was destroyed.
Right. I was actually suggesting a re-write of the film to allow Orlov to smash a fake and allow Bond to still recover the original.
Also, very true that Kamal would want both eggs. The audience expects him to notice the "switch" because it was such a great move by Bond. However, the "switch" really had no effect on Kamal whatsoever. In the end, it only resulted in the real egg being smashed because that's the one they planted the bug in. It's confusing to the audience how Orlov is so sure it's a fake, when he's actually wrong. The casual viewer is not going to take into account Kamal's reaction.
Then again, maybe it doesn't even matter. The egg is never mentioned again in the film. If none of the characters care, then why should I care? 8-)
My current 10 favorite:
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
I was becoming an artfilm snob, and this film disappointed me at the time,
I've heard a few fans refer to Octopussy as an artfilm or of high artistic quality. Any thoughts on that?
Maybe due to its complexity with the egg and the stark difference between Khan and Orlov?
I love OP. It's may be the easiest film for me to follow through and enjoy. They give Roger so much flack for wearing a Clown suit but thanks to the tension I didn't think much of it when I first saw it.
Roger played it brilliantly in that scene.
I've heard a few fans refer to Octopussy as an artfilm or of high artistic quality. Any thoughts on that?
???!!!!???
I would have to see the quotes to know what these fans are on about
this seems like production line committee written Bond to me, full of all the expected stoopid gags and adding in the latest (profitable) trends
not knowing what these other fans are thinking, here's what I might see as arty:
the bright, high contrast primary colour scheme, so notable from the first appearance of the clown costume, just keeps swirling round the screen right up til the final shot of the barge
if we take this as a purely abstract film, without a plot (and it may not have a plot), its like a brightly coloured painting in motion for two hours, very beautiful to look at
and of course has all those scantily clad beauties in every frame, always popular subject matter in fine art
and the bed, as I described above - that was one of the highlights of travelling Bond exhibit a couple of years back, that in and of itself is certainly a work of art
the other possible arty credential could be that it was (partially) written by the author of Flashman, though I'm not sure Flashman is considered fine art, Fraser is the first Bondfilm writer to have literary creds since Roald Dahl ... course, I wouldn't call Dahl's film an artfilm either
I still would like to know more precisely what Fraser's contribution was ... Barbel you must know, surely?
now some of the later Bondfilms do try to get arty, particularly the Craig films, what with their poetry readings and abstracted action sequences ... I think the younger Brocollis have been trying to make their new films something better than genre thrillers, but I for one don't need them to be
also the two Dalton films, with their conspicuous homages to The Third Man and Yojimbo respectively ... Wilson even insists the second half of Licence to Kill was based on Kurosawa, not Fleming (as it obviously is), why?? is he now ashamed of Fleming, he has to bolster his reputation by namedropping Kurosawa?
funnily enough, the Brosnan films in between, I see no effort at all to arty them up, so the temptation comes and goes
we should probably define artfilm, if we're going to meaningfully debate this, and whether a mainstream popcorn blockbuster can even qualify, even if there is a genuine artfilm director directing
I still would like to know more precisely what Fraser's contribution was ... Barbel you must know, surely?
Fraser wrote the early draft(s) of the screenplay, starting on it in 1981, with part of his brief being to incorporate Fleming's "Property Of A Lady" and the title story. It had long been planned to set a Bond film in India, the idea having started back in Harry Saltzman's day, and Fraser's background made him a good choice. The clown and gorilla disguises were both his ideas (among others, of course- Kamal and Gobinda are his, as is the climax on top of the plane.). There were a few rough patches in his relationship with Broccoli & co, and Fraser wasn't pleased when Richard Maibaum & MGW began revising his screenplay. The unusual screen credit was, IMHO, a result of this.
I saw Octopussy for the first time not very long ago. I liked it as a film. It was a bit silly in partsv but I think no more than Roger Moores other James Bond films.
Fraser wrote the early draft(s) of the screenplay, starting on it in 1981, with part of his brief being to incorporate Fleming's "Property Of A Lady" and the title story. It had long been planned to set a Bond film in India, the idea having started back in Harry Saltzman's day, and Fraser's background made him a good choice. The clown and gorilla disguises were both his ideas (among others, of course- Kamal and Gobinda are his, as is the climax on top of the plane.). There were a few rough patches in his relationship with Broccoli & co, and Fraser wasn't pleased when Richard Maibaum & MGW began revising his screenplay. The unusual screen credit was, IMHO, a result of this.
awesome, Barbel, I knew you'd have the facts safely stored in one of those braincells of yours!
I've seen some reviews blaming the increased sex-comedy content on Fraser ... but Fraser's own silly sex scenes (approx. once every 50 pages in each Flashman adventure) are much funnier and more inventive, advancing the plot, and making the narrator/hero often look worse than he already does ... whereas in Octopussy its just the usual repressed nudge nudge wink wink type stuff
CP not sure what you're going on about with the colours.
Most of the Bond films take advantage of the settings and scenes which require a bright usage of colour and I would say India and a circus - and jewellery - would require brighter colours and contrast in situations to prove a point (i.e. freedom of the west, oppression elsewhere).
CP not sure what you're going on about with the colours.
Most of the Bond films take advantage of the settings and scenes which require a bright usage of colour and I would say India and a circus - and jewellery - would require brighter colours and contrast in situations to prove a point (i.e. freedom of the west, oppression elsewhere).
as you say the subject matter itself suggests bright colours. I just really notice them with this movie. Watching it again the other night, the bright colours impressed me as soon as the first clown appeared. And I recall thinking the same thing watching it in the theatre upon first release. With the continuous use of bright high contrast colours, it looks almost like the old Batman tv series.
I actually never thought that much about colour schemes in Bond movies before. Never noticed these filters used in recent Craig films that others worry about. Well, maybe I noticed From Russia... was darker and more mysterious than the other sixties films. But to my eye, the colour scheme of Octopussy is one of its distinguishing features. No value judgement intended. (though I do like the old Batman tv series)
Watched this again over a period of a couple of days, and it's better than I remember.
Pros--
I like the fact that this is almost one of those "serious" Bond movies, the moments of silliness kind of feel like weird aberrations that don't really belong.
There's some good funny moments throughout, that are not necessarily in the silly spectrum. I love when Kamal Khan and his henchman are starting up their getaway car to get out of range of their own nuclear bomb...and it doesn't turn over. And there's this quiet moment between them, before trying to turn it on again. I rewound that a couple times and laughed my head off. Along the same lines, I love it when Khan tells him to go outside the airplane and fight Bond off while in midair. "Out there?!" Some of my favorite Bond movie moments are the ones where Bond taunts these monster-man henchmen; the guy in this movie getting all wound up is as funny as seeing Oddjobb seething in Goldfinger. "Nightcap?"
I loved the train sequence, leading into the defusing of the bomb at the circus. Great suspense, satisfying action, nice build-up with the countdown.
Octopussy gets one hell of an introduction in her first scene, where she's talking with Kamal Khan. Eerie and mysterious. "A no from you is unlikely to become a yes," I love all the dialogue from that sequence.
Bond being confronted with a situation from his past, with Octopussy's father. Moore does well with it, and it's the kind of thing I wish we could have seen Dalton, Brosnan, or Craig react to (it's not too late with Craig, I suppose there's at least one more opportunity).
Octopussy during her business trip with the circus, and on the train. Professional, elegant, classy. She looks great and convincing as a formidable, regal, respectable business lady. An aristocrat of international organizations, legal and otherwise.
Even though I'm not a fan of the clown thing, Roger Moore owns it. We see a short second or two of him doing the body language of clowns or mimes, which I didn't expect.
The sincerity of his confrontation with Orlov. He understands the scheme, and questions Orlov about the loss of life, which he is outraged about.
Orlov told to sit down in the Soviet strategy conference at the beginning. And he wriggles in his seat like a wiggle worm, like a naught boy sent to detention. Its over the top, but funny.
It's kind of stupid, but Bond telling the snake to "Hiss off!" At least it's not swinging on vines and yelling like Tarzan...
Cons--
Tarzan yell. Christ, why do that? I like the idea of Bond as the target of a game hunt, that's interesting. But there's a lot of little shenanigans that diminish it, one moment after the other. Half the stuff in that obstacle course could do with being cut, and maybe trade it off for a little extra suspense. Ah, well.
This movie plays with icky moments. Kamal Khan taking an eyeball off his stuffed sheeps head, the spider Bond squishes during the game hunt/obstacle course. Gross out. Not my cuppa.
Mixed--
Octopussy's army vs. Kamal Khan's army. Nice idea. It's a little outlandish, particularly after the length train sequence and defusing the bomb at the circus, which feels pretty grounded, action-wise. The action with Octopussy's troops (troupe?) invading the Monsoon Palace is at least trying for something different. At least it's quick and not drawn out.
Bond vs. Gobinda on the outside of the plane. Great idea, in terms of combat in circumstances of heightened danger. It's over so quickly, though. Yet, it nice to not have a fight drawn out for too long.
A lot of people complain about Bond's clown costume, but the costume is what got him past everyone and to the bomb, so it made sense. It's certainly a lot better than Bond's Japanese disguise in You Only Live Twice, and that disguise was so bad, I don't see how it often gets a free pass in comparison.
A lot of people complain about Bond's clown costume, but the costume is what got him past everyone and to the bomb, so it made sense. It's certainly a lot better than Bond's Japanese disguise in You Only Live Twice, and that disguise was so bad, I don't see how it often gets a free pass in comparison.
It's not about the disguise, it's about the actor in the disguise.
A lot of people complain about Bond's clown costume, but the costume is what got him past everyone and to the bomb, so it made sense. It's certainly a lot better than Bond's Japanese disguise in You Only Live Twice, and that disguise was so bad, I don't see how it often gets a free pass in comparison.
It's not about the disguise, it's about the actor in the disguise.
A lot of people complain about Bond's clown costume, but the costume is what got him past everyone and to the bomb, so it made sense. It's certainly a lot better than Bond's Japanese disguise in You Only Live Twice, and that disguise was so bad, I don't see how it often gets a free pass in comparison.
It's not about the disguise, it's about the actor in the disguise.
Well what's wrong with the actor?
Nothing at all. And that scene was riveting, the juxtaposition of the silly clown costume with the deadly serious situation was incredibly effective IMHO.
the fact that children and generals are laughing at him while there's thirty seconds left really twists the suspense round and round, adds a macabre black humour ... its very much like a Hitchcock situation
the final showdown in the middle of a crowded theatre in itself is a recurring Hitchcock setpiece (eg The 39 Steps, The Man Who Knew Too Much, or Torn Curtain), theres a lot of chaos added by the audience, the ability of the pursuers and the pursued to blend into the crowd, the breakdown of the stage show and the audience not knowing the difference, and those inadequate fire escapes when the panic starts ... Octopussy adds to that by putting Bond on stage, in costume as one of the performers, specifically the one the audience is conditioned to laugh at
still, all he needed to do was change to a shirt that wasn't red
Comments
That entire scene is brilliantly acted by Moore. Seduction is her aim, but he's still sticking to the job at hand.
"Better make that two."
...And they say that Roger Moore doesn't do serious/murderous acts in any of his movies. There, that was one of them which didn't count as the main villain.
1. Dalton 2. Moore 3. Connery 4. Lazenby 5. Craig 6. Brosnan
The story to the film is really strong, I think the screenplay writers did a good job. This was released in 1983, then a year later Frederick Forsyth releases his Spy novel entitled "The Fourth Protocol" which fundamently is just the same story line as appears in Octopussy.
The film tips it's hat to Goldfinger in that the Villain is cheating in a game for high stakes. Also a very "Oddjob" moment when Gobinda crushes the loaded dice as opposed to a golf ball.
The whole auction scene is great, and how Bond follows the egg is also very good.
On the negative I loved FYEO as we saw a gritty Moore Bond, in this we are back to the humorous Moore Bond. Moore is starting to show his age, and looks every year of the 56 years he was at the time of release.
Not Moore's worst Bond movie, I've seen six of them at the moment and I would rate them in the following order with AVTAK still to come:
1 FYEO
2 TSWLM
3 LALD
4 OP
5 TMWTGG
6 MR
"Do you expect me to talk? "No Mister Bond I expect you to die"
This is even more of an insult to his looks than you think, since he was only 55 at the time of the film's release.
Mind you he looks far better than I did when I was 55...lol
"Do you expect me to talk? "No Mister Bond I expect you to die"
Pros:
.Very interesting plot. Little convoluted though.
.The locations in India and Germany.
.Cold War vibe.
.Entire cast.
.Vibrant cinematography.
.General Orlov.
.The twins.
.Bigger role for Q.
.Penelope Smallbone. :x
Cons:
.The finale is a little bloated.
.The gorilla costume.
No real flaws here.
9/10 -{
-a bit more Fleming content, mostly Property of a Lady, and the Blades scene from Moonraker. The title story is there, but reduced to a couple lines of dialog establishing the title character's back-story.
-the PoaL adaptation is very loose, but that's ok, because Fleming's story was pretty thin stuff, and the character Maria Freudenstein had been described as so ugly and undesirable her only choice in life was to sell out to the Soviets. Cinematically a good choice to replace her with the sexy Magda, now there is a lady.
The extrapolations from this story make up most of the first half of the film.
-continues the stripped down cold war intrigues of the previous film. Sort of. In between other scenes.
-George McDonald Fraser (Flashman) is credited with the script, though Wikipedia claims he only wrote the first draft. Anybody know how much of the story is his?
-a lot of swashbuckling and exoticism, I think inspired by the recent Raiders of the Lost Ark
-India is a new setting, and adds much to the colourful palette of the film. Though it looks like a very romanticised, westerner's fantasy version of India, especially with the palaces, the barge, and the elephant hunt.
-whole lotta jiggling going on. Octopussy's island is much like Paradise Island from Wonder Woman, encouraging the same speculations as to what those women get up to, where no men are allowed.
-which reminds me: Magda wears a lot of skimpy flowing robes in the first half of the movie, which she always seems to be leaving in a trail behind her.
-...and, the octopus shaped bed. Its not just shaped like an octo-pussy: upon close inspection (we get several clear shots during the attempted assassination scene) it has a single round pillow mounted on the headboard, about a foot above the bed, in the centre. And is framed by long flowing drapes, almost like some type of hood. Certainly reminds me of something and its not a sea-creature?
-Gogol is back, and more or less a good guy again. His philosophical differences with Orlov forshadow similar debates we will see with Dench-M and war-hungry military types in later movies.
-I like the sequence of consecutive chase sequences we get in the later scenes. Especially the train and the circus. Very tense stuff, and unlike some films most of it is directly relevant to the plot.
-I like Moore in the clown costume. It really works, adds to the confusion. the circus scene is one of the best ticking timebomb sequences in the whole series, and would not work if Moore just showed up in his usual three piece suit.
CONS
-I've watched this film many times and still have no idea what the story is really all about.
-continues the rambling overlapping episodic plot structure of the previous film. But this time a bit too much, because I don't think this one makes any sense.
- a lot of stoopid Benny Hill level sex humour, which we haven't really seen for the last the last two films. Was this Fraser's contribution? He writes a lot of silly sex scenes in his novels, but they're usually a lot funnier and more original than this. Flashman getting laid inevitably sets up him up for some major unintended consequences.
-Vijay is very distracting and not funny. Maybe if I cared about tennis I'd care about the in-jokes? the market chase is much too silly already, following the change in tone of the previous film its a step backwards.
-Q in the field. I think to compensate for the absence of Bernard Lee (the new M hardly does the job of replacing him). I always like Llewelyn, but the added scenes are much too silly and do not add to the story.
-the hot air balloon. More stoopidity, and adds to the 19th century colonial-era fantasy version of India.
-the whole film is so literally colourful. Maybe the most brightly coloured of any Bond film. Not a bad thing in and of itself, but completely contradicts the gritty cold war tale that it wants to be. Even the Berlin scenes are dominated by the circus imagery. like the film is confused as to its own purpose.
in fact I'm not even sure all my observations count as pros or cons, the film seems so confused as to what it wants to be. Probably its just me who wants it to be something other than what it is.
This is something I have wondered about. Who's bright idea was it to mix Cold War Berlin with exotic colorful India? Does it work?
(actually The Living Daylights follows a similar pattern too)
Even when I want OP to be grim, it still doesn't meet expectations due to most of the Berlin scenes being at the circus. It was only after I watched the German film Wings of Desire that I realized the circus actually was an integral part of life for the city.
You raise an interesting question, should the film be faulted for being something other than what we want it to be?
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
This is a can of worms that I'm hesitant to reopen, but I totally feel the same way.
At the very least, the film could have been more clear about IF Kamal even noticed the egg was a fake. (I don't think he ever did)
Or why Orlov was so sure the egg he smashed was fake? Because he was wrong! (Again confusing)
Or end the film with the genuine egg being returned to Gogol instead of the "Romanov Star"
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#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
it may just be in retrospect that I, and others, go in expecting a followup to FYEO. Perhaps because the same director did the two Dalton films? But maybe at the time FYEO was seen as a one-off, and the filmmakers were inspired by other things in the meantime (specifically Raiders of the Lost Ark)
anyway, I'm reminded anecdotally Octopussy was where I checked out, until the hype of Goldeneye twelve years later. I was becoming an artfilm snob, and this film disappointed me at the time, and its followup looked even worse so I didn't bother. Ironic you should mention Wings of Desire, because that's exactly what I was watching in the late 80s, instead of giving Timothy Dalton a chance.
I see upthread people have been trying to explain the plot to one another, so I'll just shut up and read instead of complaining.
The Faberge' egg is used to do something, but it gets copied and Octopussy has something to do with it. Kamel Khan is working with Orlov to help him strike at the West to help him take control of Russia from the more cool-headed dudes there. A bomb gets diffused in a pretty damn good tense scene. Bond has a fight outside a train (after Orlov gets karma-ized), and a small plane, and Q gets lots of hugs from Octopussy's attractive acrobatic girls.
See, this is why I like the film so much- every time I watch it it's like seeing a new movie I've never seen before.
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Bond switched the real egg at auction for the fake one 009 recovered, so Kamal buys the fake egg back without realising it. When Bond reveals his egg (the real one, now with a tracking device) to Kamal at the casino, Kamal wasn't sure which egg he has and orders Magda to steal Bond's egg. Or perhaps Kamal thinks it's the fake egg and still wants it back since it was stolen in the first place. Either way, he wants both eggs. It doesn't matter that Bond switched the eggs, since Kamal would have wanted to steal either. Kamal, now with both in his possession, is able to figure out which is the real egg and which is the fake egg. Orlov destroys the real egg, and Kamal's expression shows that he knows that Orlov destroyed the wrong egg. Bond could never have returned the genuine egg because it was destroyed. Bond would not have tried to recover the real egg because he could hear in the listening device that is was destroyed.
Right. I was actually suggesting a re-write of the film to allow Orlov to smash a fake and allow Bond to still recover the original.
Also, very true that Kamal would want both eggs. The audience expects him to notice the "switch" because it was such a great move by Bond. However, the "switch" really had no effect on Kamal whatsoever. In the end, it only resulted in the real egg being smashed because that's the one they planted the bug in. It's confusing to the audience how Orlov is so sure it's a fake, when he's actually wrong. The casual viewer is not going to take into account Kamal's reaction.
Then again, maybe it doesn't even matter. The egg is never mentioned again in the film. If none of the characters care, then why should I care? 8-)
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Unfortunately it sure does! However, I can be in almost any mood because it's such an entertaining film.
I've heard a few fans refer to Octopussy as an artfilm or of high artistic quality. Any thoughts on that?
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I love OP. It's may be the easiest film for me to follow through and enjoy. They give Roger so much flack for wearing a Clown suit but thanks to the tension I didn't think much of it when I first saw it.
Roger played it brilliantly in that scene.
I would have to see the quotes to know what these fans are on about
this seems like production line committee written Bond to me, full of all the expected stoopid gags and adding in the latest (profitable) trends
not knowing what these other fans are thinking, here's what I might see as arty:
the bright, high contrast primary colour scheme, so notable from the first appearance of the clown costume, just keeps swirling round the screen right up til the final shot of the barge
if we take this as a purely abstract film, without a plot (and it may not have a plot), its like a brightly coloured painting in motion for two hours, very beautiful to look at
and of course has all those scantily clad beauties in every frame, always popular subject matter in fine art
and the bed, as I described above - that was one of the highlights of travelling Bond exhibit a couple of years back, that in and of itself is certainly a work of art
the other possible arty credential could be that it was (partially) written by the author of Flashman, though I'm not sure Flashman is considered fine art, Fraser is the first Bondfilm writer to have literary creds since Roald Dahl ... course, I wouldn't call Dahl's film an artfilm either
I still would like to know more precisely what Fraser's contribution was ... Barbel you must know, surely?
now some of the later Bondfilms do try to get arty, particularly the Craig films, what with their poetry readings and abstracted action sequences ... I think the younger Brocollis have been trying to make their new films something better than genre thrillers, but I for one don't need them to be
also the two Dalton films, with their conspicuous homages to The Third Man and Yojimbo respectively ... Wilson even insists the second half of Licence to Kill was based on Kurosawa, not Fleming (as it obviously is), why?? is he now ashamed of Fleming, he has to bolster his reputation by namedropping Kurosawa?
funnily enough, the Brosnan films in between, I see no effort at all to arty them up, so the temptation comes and goes
we should probably define artfilm, if we're going to meaningfully debate this, and whether a mainstream popcorn blockbuster can even qualify, even if there is a genuine artfilm director directing
Fraser wrote the early draft(s) of the screenplay, starting on it in 1981, with part of his brief being to incorporate Fleming's "Property Of A Lady" and the title story. It had long been planned to set a Bond film in India, the idea having started back in Harry Saltzman's day, and Fraser's background made him a good choice. The clown and gorilla disguises were both his ideas (among others, of course- Kamal and Gobinda are his, as is the climax on top of the plane.). There were a few rough patches in his relationship with Broccoli & co, and Fraser wasn't pleased when Richard Maibaum & MGW began revising his screenplay. The unusual screen credit was, IMHO, a result of this.
I've seen some reviews blaming the increased sex-comedy content on Fraser ... but Fraser's own silly sex scenes (approx. once every 50 pages in each Flashman adventure) are much funnier and more inventive, advancing the plot, and making the narrator/hero often look worse than he already does ... whereas in Octopussy its just the usual repressed nudge nudge wink wink type stuff
Most of the Bond films take advantage of the settings and scenes which require a bright usage of colour and I would say India and a circus - and jewellery - would require brighter colours and contrast in situations to prove a point (i.e. freedom of the west, oppression elsewhere).
"Better make that two."
I actually never thought that much about colour schemes in Bond movies before. Never noticed these filters used in recent Craig films that others worry about. Well, maybe I noticed From Russia... was darker and more mysterious than the other sixties films. But to my eye, the colour scheme of Octopussy is one of its distinguishing features. No value judgement intended. (though I do like the old Batman tv series)
Pros--
I like the fact that this is almost one of those "serious" Bond movies, the moments of silliness kind of feel like weird aberrations that don't really belong.
There's some good funny moments throughout, that are not necessarily in the silly spectrum. I love when Kamal Khan and his henchman are starting up their getaway car to get out of range of their own nuclear bomb...and it doesn't turn over. And there's this quiet moment between them, before trying to turn it on again. I rewound that a couple times and laughed my head off. Along the same lines, I love it when Khan tells him to go outside the airplane and fight Bond off while in midair. "Out there?!" Some of my favorite Bond movie moments are the ones where Bond taunts these monster-man henchmen; the guy in this movie getting all wound up is as funny as seeing Oddjobb seething in Goldfinger. "Nightcap?"
I loved the train sequence, leading into the defusing of the bomb at the circus. Great suspense, satisfying action, nice build-up with the countdown.
Octopussy gets one hell of an introduction in her first scene, where she's talking with Kamal Khan. Eerie and mysterious. "A no from you is unlikely to become a yes," I love all the dialogue from that sequence.
Bond being confronted with a situation from his past, with Octopussy's father. Moore does well with it, and it's the kind of thing I wish we could have seen Dalton, Brosnan, or Craig react to (it's not too late with Craig, I suppose there's at least one more opportunity).
Octopussy during her business trip with the circus, and on the train. Professional, elegant, classy. She looks great and convincing as a formidable, regal, respectable business lady. An aristocrat of international organizations, legal and otherwise.
Even though I'm not a fan of the clown thing, Roger Moore owns it. We see a short second or two of him doing the body language of clowns or mimes, which I didn't expect.
The sincerity of his confrontation with Orlov. He understands the scheme, and questions Orlov about the loss of life, which he is outraged about.
Orlov told to sit down in the Soviet strategy conference at the beginning. And he wriggles in his seat like a wiggle worm, like a naught boy sent to detention. Its over the top, but funny.
It's kind of stupid, but Bond telling the snake to "Hiss off!" At least it's not swinging on vines and yelling like Tarzan...
Cons--
Tarzan yell. Christ, why do that? I like the idea of Bond as the target of a game hunt, that's interesting. But there's a lot of little shenanigans that diminish it, one moment after the other. Half the stuff in that obstacle course could do with being cut, and maybe trade it off for a little extra suspense. Ah, well.
This movie plays with icky moments. Kamal Khan taking an eyeball off his stuffed sheeps head, the spider Bond squishes during the game hunt/obstacle course. Gross out. Not my cuppa.
Mixed--
Octopussy's army vs. Kamal Khan's army. Nice idea. It's a little outlandish, particularly after the length train sequence and defusing the bomb at the circus, which feels pretty grounded, action-wise. The action with Octopussy's troops (troupe?) invading the Monsoon Palace is at least trying for something different. At least it's quick and not drawn out.
Bond vs. Gobinda on the outside of the plane. Great idea, in terms of combat in circumstances of heightened danger. It's over so quickly, though. Yet, it nice to not have a fight drawn out for too long.
It's not about the disguise, it's about the actor in the disguise.
Well what's wrong with the actor?
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the final showdown in the middle of a crowded theatre in itself is a recurring Hitchcock setpiece (eg The 39 Steps, The Man Who Knew Too Much, or Torn Curtain), theres a lot of chaos added by the audience, the ability of the pursuers and the pursued to blend into the crowd, the breakdown of the stage show and the audience not knowing the difference, and those inadequate fire escapes when the panic starts ... Octopussy adds to that by putting Bond on stage, in costume as one of the performers, specifically the one the audience is conditioned to laugh at
still, all he needed to do was change to a shirt that wasn't red