So, Why is Denbigh Called [spoiler]?

Gassy Man · November 2015

I get the joke. What I mean is why that initial? Isn't "M" based on the first letter of the person's real name? How does C fit Denbigh? Did I not pay close enough attention to the scene dialogue?

scottbuster2000 · November 2015

Gassy Man wrote:

I get the joke. What I mean is why that initial? Isn't "M" based on the first letter of the person's real name? How does this fit Denbigh? Did I not pay close enough attention to the scene dialogue?

In real life, the head of MI6 is referred to as 'C'. 'M' is a Fleming creation. So my guess in the Bond film world they use 'C' for the head of MI5.

Gassy Man · November 2015

Ah. Something that went past me, as in Casino Royale, the point was made that the letter reflected M's real name, and, of course, "Mallory" and M.

Asp9mm · November 2015

scottbuster2000 wrote:

In real life, the head of MI6 is referred to as 'C'. 'M' is a Fleming creation. So my guess in the Bond film world they use 'C' for the head of MI5.

Fleming called the head of his Service 'M' based upon the fact that the head of SOE was also called 'M', a service that was a massive influence on Fleming. He got 'Q' from them also.

Lady Ice · November 2015

Gassy Man wrote:

I get the joke. What I mean is why that initial? Isn't "M" based on the first letter of the person's real name? How does C fit Denbigh? Did I not pay close enough attention to the scene dialogue?

I think it's just for the joke; didn't feel like there was anything more cerebral than that. I see the point about the head of MI5 being called C in life but the meaning doesn't fit with Bond's dismissive tone, sounding like he was calling him pondlife basically. To me it's because the initial so obviously leads to the insult and it fits with the codename practice of M and Q.

Asp9mm · November 2015

It was supposed to be in reference of all the cameras shown in the film. Which were cut in the final edit.

The head of MI:6 (in real life) is called C. Not MI:5. He is known as the DG.

Lady Ice · November 2015

Asp9mm wrote:

The head of MI:6 (in real life) is called C. Not MI:5. He is known as the DG.

Whoops- thanks for correction

am747 · November 2015

Gassy Man wrote:

I get the joke. What I mean is why that initial? Isn't "M" based on the first letter of the person's real name? How does C fit Denbigh? Did I not pay close enough attention to the scene dialogue?

C = Co-M (as in co-president)

Barbel · November 2015

This article on the original C may be of interest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansfield_Smith-Cumming

It includes references to Fleming's M, and to the C character from SP (though it doesn't mention that Judi Dench's M was named after him).

Gassy Man · November 2015

It is interesting, and I do appreciate the speculations people have offered, which are plausible. I wish the film had done a better job of clarifying this. It seems we're expected to make the connection from prior knowledge, but I can see where a deleted scene would make things challenging, as well.

Matt S · November 2015

Gassy Man wrote:

It is interesting, and I do appreciate the speculations people have offered, which are plausible. I wish the film had done a better job of clarifying this. It seems we're expected to make the connection from prior knowledge, but I can see where a deleted scene would make things challenging, as well.

The film doesn't necessarily need to explain why he is called C, but they would have needed to introduce him differently. It's what Bond says to him that makes us wonder why he should be called C. I took it that Denbigh's position comes with the title "C", and it was just poor dialogue that has made us confused.

Gassy Man · November 2015

The problem is that -- if we are to use the Craig films as a consistent arc -- the nomenclature has already been explained. In Casino Royale, Bond says he thought it was a random letter but then starts to say her name before being stopped. Later, Mallory becomes the new M, which seems to reinforce the idea of a name being the reason. Apparently, Olivia Mansfield is also visible somewhere when Bond is presented with the bulldog, but I didn't bother to look. If so, two M last names, which makes sense why they're referred to as M. All of this reinforces that the letter has something to do with a starting letter of the name of the agency leader being referenced, which is also in the novels. There's nothing about Max Denbigh to suggest that C would even be a possibility. Occam's Razor: If this is the pattern demonstrated, then C makes no sense. That's why dialogue would be necessary to clarify it.

Lady Ice · November 2015

Matt S wrote:

The film doesn't necessarily need to explain why he is called C, but they would have needed to introduce him differently. It's what Bond says to him that makes us wonder why he should be called C. I took it that Denbigh's position comes with the title "C", and it was just poor dialogue that has made us confused.

It was confusing when other people started calling him C; I'm trying to remember the scene where he is introduced. I don't think he's introduced as C; Bond calls him that but in a way that makes it sound like a nickname that he's giving Denbigh rather than Denbigh's code name. It sounded like the contrivance of Christmas Jones in TWINE; you can see that there's going to be a punchline at some point in the film. Maybe on a rewatch it will make more sense.

As for M being the initial of the surname, Q isn't so there's no reason why C needed to be the initial of his surname. But yeah, I think the point of it is confused.

IanT · November 2015

The original M was Sir Miles Messervey. Which follows the surname tradition. But maybe it's just a coincidence that all M characters have a surname ending M (except Admiral Hargreaves).

Q is short for Quartermaster.

C is the correct cipher for the head of MI6. I think we are to believe that M has taken command of the 00 section and C is a newly appointed cipher that is short for Controller or something for the new merged organisation.

MajorBoothroyd · November 2015

CNS is the name of the building c runs.

Matt S · November 2015

IanT wrote:

The original M was Sir Miles Messervey. Which follows the surname tradition. But maybe it's just a coincidence that all M characters have a surname ending M (except Admiral Hargreaves).

There's no proof that Robert Brown was playing Admiral Hargreaves as M and not Messervy. A number of actors have played multiple roles in the Bond films.

Gassy Man · November 2015

Lady Ice wrote:

Matt S wrote:

The film doesn't necessarily need to explain why he is called C, but they would have needed to introduce him differently. It's what Bond says to him that makes us wonder why he should be called C. I took it that Denbigh's position comes with the title "C", and it was just poor dialogue that has made us confused.

It was confusing when other people started calling him C; I'm trying to remember the scene where he is introduced. I don't think he's introduced as C; Bond calls him that but in a way that makes it sound like a nickname that he's giving Denbigh rather than Denbigh's code name. It sounded like the contrivance of Christmas Jones in TWINE; you can see that there's going to be a punchline at some point in the film. Maybe on a rewatch it will make more sense.

As for M being the initial of the surname, Q isn't so there's no reason why C needed to be the initial of his surname. But yeah, I think the point of it is confused.

But Q is not the head of the service, and arguably, we don't know what Boothroyd's first name is. It could well be Quentin. But Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is the M comes from the name of the person, as Bond all but says in Casino Royale. If that's the tradition, "C" doesn't make sense with Max Denbigh.

Gassy Man · November 2015

Matt S wrote:

IanT wrote:

The original M was Sir Miles Messervey. Which follows the surname tradition. But maybe it's just a coincidence that all M characters have a surname ending M (except Admiral Hargreaves).

There's no proof that Robert Brown was playing Admiral Hargreaves as M and not Messervy. A number of actors have played multiple roles in the Bond films.

It wouldn't matter anyway since the reboot does not necessarily follow with the traditions of the previous films.

Lady Ice · December 2015

Gassy Man wrote:

Lady Ice wrote:

Matt S wrote:

The film doesn't necessarily need to explain why he is called C, but they would have needed to introduce him differently. It's what Bond says to him that makes us wonder why he should be called C. I took it that Denbigh's position comes with the title "C", and it was just poor dialogue that has made us confused.

It was confusing when other people started calling him C; I'm trying to remember the scene where he is introduced. I don't think he's introduced as C; Bond calls him that but in a way that makes it sound like a nickname that he's giving Denbigh rather than Denbigh's code name. It sounded like the contrivance of Christmas Jones in TWINE; you can see that there's going to be a punchline at some point in the film. Maybe on a rewatch it will make more sense.

As for M being the initial of the surname, Q isn't so there's no reason why C needed to be the initial of his surname. But yeah, I think the point of it is confused.

But Q is not the head of the service, and arguably, we don't know what Boothroyd's first name is. It could well be Quentin. But Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is the M comes from the name of the person, as Bond all but says in Casino Royale. If that's the tradition, "C" doesn't make sense with Max Denbigh.

I don't think the explanation that M comes from the surname is completely satisfactory; I think the audience accept that whoever occupies that position is referred to as M. It makes it easier for an audience if the surname matches the initial, so we could put two and two together in SF and pinpoint Mallory as new M, but I don't think that if the new head was called Bob Jenkins that the audience would expect him to be referred to as J. If Q followed the rule of initial of the name (and it would be simplest that all code names followed the same code), what if his successor was called John- are they both 'J'?

I guess it's similar to the double 0 names- not sure how many double 0 agents there are but I imagine over the years there will have been a turnover. However there are a finite amount of code names; other agents have been 007 before Bond I think and other agents will be afterwards. There's not a unique number for every double 00 agent so I don't think Q, M and C would be unique.

The simplest answer I think would be that C is a rank that just hasn't been explained to us (maybe they had some exposition but chose to cut it), just as we accept M and Q are ranks.

MilleniumForce · December 2015

I think, just to clear up the name issue, the dialogue could have been tweaked like this:

M: Bond, this is Max Denbigh, C.
Bond: So you're the new C.
C: I'd prefer it if you'd call me Denbigh.
Bond: No, I'm going to call you C.

See, now it's as if Bond chooses to call him C, his code name, rather than making C up for him.

Gassy Man · December 2015

Lady Ice wrote:

Gassy Man wrote:

Lady Ice wrote:

It was confusing when other people started calling him C; I'm trying to remember the scene where he is introduced. I don't think he's introduced as C; Bond calls him that but in a way that makes it sound like a nickname that he's giving Denbigh rather than Denbigh's code name. It sounded like the contrivance of Christmas Jones in TWINE; you can see that there's going to be a punchline at some point in the film. Maybe on a rewatch it will make more sense.

As for M being the initial of the surname, Q isn't so there's no reason why C needed to be the initial of his surname. But yeah, I think the point of it is confused.

But Q is not the head of the service, and arguably, we don't know what Boothroyd's first name is. It could well be Quentin. But Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is the M comes from the name of the person, as Bond all but says in Casino Royale. If that's the tradition, "C" doesn't make sense with Max Denbigh.

I don't think the explanation that M comes from the surname is completely satisfactory; I think the audience accept that whoever occupies that position is referred to as M. It makes it easier for an audience if the surname matches the initial, so we could put two and two together in SF and pinpoint Mallory as new M, but I don't think that if the new head was called Bob Jenkins that the audience would expect him to be referred to as J. If Q followed the rule of initial of the name (and it would be simplest that all code names followed the same code), what if his successor was called John- are they both 'J'?

I guess it's similar to the double 0 names- not sure how many double 0 agents there are but I imagine over the years there will have been a turnover. However there are a finite amount of code names; other agents have been 007 before Bond I think and other agents will be afterwards. There's not a unique number for every double 00 agent so I don't think Q, M and C would be unique.

The simplest answer I think would be that C is a rank that just hasn't been explained to us (maybe they had some exposition but chose to cut it), just as we accept M and Q are ranks.

Though I don't hold to it, I could see that argument being made for the original series, where several people (assuming Robert Brown isn't literally supposed to be the same man as played by Bernard Lee) occupied the position and somehow coincidentally were all called M. But the reboot doesn't hold to the old traditions necessarily, and then there's the dialogue in Casino Royale:

James Bond: The same way I found out your name. I always thought "M" was a randomly assigned letter. I had no idea it stood for...
M: Utter one more syllable and I'll have you killed.

The fact that Judi Dench's M is named Olivia Mansfield, now canonical, and Ralph Fiennes' is named Gareth Mallory is just too much of a coincidence for the initial to simply be a standard code name. And if it was simply a code name, why would M be so upset that Bond was about to say it? After all, would "Quartermaster" ellicit the same consternation?

To me, the problem isn't with M. That's easy to reconcile using Occam's Razor and common sense. The problem is with C. The writers of Spectre just did a lousy job with it, and the result is confusion. It's just another example of how lame the filmmaking is in this regard. Even if it turns out there was a line or scene cut from the film to explain it, that choice was a dumb one on the part of the editor, and the writer should have written the scene so that it was impossible to cut the reference. You know, like:

Bond: So you want to be the big chief? I guess that makes you C.

Or, MilleniumForce's excellent dialogue exchange.

writingsonthewall · December 2015

I really don't see the problem.

The fact that in CR Bond assumes M to stand for the initial of the late Ms. Manfield doesn't really mean that his assumption is correct. She doesn't confirm anything, simply shows her ire at having her household entered so easily by a novice agent. Now yes, with SF, two consecutive persons in the position having the same initial IS a bit too much of a coincidence, but not totally impossible. Clearly the writers thought it would be a nice touch (to me, it simply telegraphed the ending of the movie from miles away) and, in-universe, clearly someone in the committee responsible for appointments had a chuckle with it.

Now, though the dialogue in Sp COULD have been better, Bond's "So you're the new C" simply sounds to me like Bond being aware of the codename assigned to Denbigh's position and casually showing it in the position. And the "You can call me Max" bit is meant to show the character's that type of bogus friendly new boss who's actually hiding an S.O.B. behind the facade. Course, being a good judge of character, Bond sees through it and distances himself via the "No, I think I'll call you C" which ALSO telegraphs the joke miles before its delivery. Poor writing, yes, but not especially confusing.

IMHO, of course.

Sir Miles · December 2015

MilleniumForce wrote:

I think, just to clear up the name issue, the dialogue could have been tweaked like this:

M: Bond, this is Max Denbigh, C.
Bond: So you're the new C.
C: I'd prefer it if you'd call me Denbigh.
Bond: No, I'm going to call you C.

See, now it's as if Bond chooses to call him C, his code name, rather than making C up for him.

As it's been explained before...it's from a deleted scene...about all the cameras that have been installed...too late to go back and change dialogue...

Unknown007 · December 2015

Reminds me of the joke in The World Is Not Enough when Brosnan's Bond turns to Llewelyns Q and remarks about Cleese's Character - "If you'r Q does that make him R?"..........

Ah yes the famous 007 wit, or at least half of it........

Gassy Man · December 2015

writingsonthewall wrote:

I really don't see the problem.

The fact that in CR Bond assumes M to stand for the initial of the late Ms. Manfield doesn't really mean that his assumption is correct. She doesn't confirm anything, simply shows her ire at having her household entered so easily by a novice agent. Now yes, with SF, two consecutive persons in the position having the same initial IS a bit too much of a coincidence, but not totally impossible. Clearly the writers thought it would be a nice touch (to me, it simply telegraphed the ending of the movie from miles away) and, in-universe, clearly someone in the committee responsible for appointments had a chuckle with it.

Now, though the dialogue in Sp COULD have been better, Bond's "So you're the new C" simply sounds to me like Bond being aware of the codename assigned to Denbigh's position and casually showing it in the position. And the "You can call me Max" bit is meant to show the character's that type of bogus friendly new boss who's actually hiding an S.O.B. behind the facade. Course, being a good judge of character, Bond sees through it and distances himself via the "No, I think I'll call you C" which ALSO telegraphs the joke miles before its delivery. Poor writing, yes, but not especially confusing.

IMHO, of course.

Occams' Razor. The somersaults you must go through in order to explain away the obvious is why it's a less plausible explanation.

Gassy Man · December 2015

Unknown007 wrote:

Reminds me of the joke in The World Is Not Enough when Brosnan's Bond turns to Llewelyns Q and remarks about Cleese's Character - "If you'r Q does that make him R?"..........

Ah yes the famous 007 wit, or at least half of it........

Does C follow M?

writingsonthewall · December 2015

Gassy Man wrote:

Occams' Razor. The somersaults you must go through in order to explain away the obvious is why it's a less plausible explanation.

Afraid I see more leaps of faith in your belief that the M corresponds to the name of the person that occupies the position. It was a statement by Bond, never confirmed but for a happy coincidence. You're using circumstancial evidence as support for your theory.

Anyway, it's a minor point, doesn't really worry me, so whatever explanation works best for you (mine does for me, so to each his/her own!).

Thunderpussy · December 2015

Leaps and somersaults, looks like the AJB gymnastics team will
Do well in the medals table this year !

All opinions are valid

even my crazy off the wall ones.

writingsonthewall · December 2015

TP, leaps and somersaults are what the doctor ordered to get rid of my pot belly!

Thunderpussy · December 2015

) my belly has gone from a pot to a whole cooker !

)

Matt S · December 2015

Sir Miles wrote:

MilleniumForce wrote:

I think, just to clear up the name issue, the dialogue could have been tweaked like this:

M: Bond, this is Max Denbigh, C.
Bond: So you're the new C.
C: I'd prefer it if you'd call me Denbigh.
Bond: No, I'm going to call you C.

See, now it's as if Bond chooses to call him C, his code name, rather than making C up for him.

As it's been explained before...it's from a deleted scene...about all the cameras that have been installed...too late to go back and change dialogue...

Can you explain how the deleted scene explains it? I don't think anyone did.

So, Why is Denbigh Called [spoiler]?

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