It's still shocking to think about somebody being tortured who AGREED to give that crucial information.
Ok...I'm lost here...who was going to be tortured after agreeing to voluntarily give information ?:)
Haha, no one really - but Le Chiffre, assuming, just hypothetically, he had agreed to sanctuary in exchange for information. Somebody brought up the thought he might have been tortured during the interrogation. So it's a shocking thing to to think about in case he AGREED to tell them everything they want.
Ah...so you are shocked about something that wasn't ever going to happen ?:) )
Ok...I'm lost here...who was going to be tortured after agreeing to voluntarily give information ?:)
Haha, no one really - but Le Chiffre, assuming, just hypothetically, he had agreed to sanctuary in exchange for information. Somebody brought up the thought he might have been tortured during the interrogation. So it's a shocking thing to to think about in case he AGREED to tell them everything they want.
Ah...so you are shocked about something that wasn't ever going to happen ?:) )
yeah, that's pretty much it, it's a hypothetical scenario.
is it really THAT absurd? Is my English really THAT bad I can't make myself understood at all?
"You don’t make art out of good intentions." - Gustave Flaubert;
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,755Chief of Staff
Haha, no one really - but Le Chiffre, assuming, just hypothetically, he had agreed to sanctuary in exchange for information. Somebody brought up the thought he might have been tortured during the interrogation. So it's a shocking thing to to think about in case he AGREED to tell them everything they want.
Ah...so you are shocked about something that wasn't ever going to happen ?:) )
yeah, that's pretty much it, it's a hypothetical scenario.
is it really THAT absurd? Is my English really THAT bad I can't make myself understood at all?
I'm not saying it's absurd - but certainly illogical...
You're English is very good - but you kept going on about something that wasn't going to happen - or even in the script...so I did wonder...
I'm not saying it's absurd - but certainly illogical...
You're English is very good - but you kept going on about something that wasn't going to happen - or even in the script...so I did wonder...
Well, it was just a hypothetical thought. ^^
I think about hypothetical things like that all the time to be honest, mostly James Bond unrelated stuff. ?:) Didn't know it was that uncommon lol
Ah, ok...but the hypothetical thought came from nowhere...you didn't preface it in any way...which led to the confusion -{
No, it didn't come from nowhere. The main question was what "sanctuary" meant in the hypothetical context that Le Chiffre had accepted the deal (as stated in the very first post) After people explained it to me and/or brought up their thoughts, I wondered how exactly they'd go through the whole procedure. Somebody brought up Le Chiffre would have been "talked to", so I thought that didn't sound pleasant (due to those quotation marks), whereafter somebody else brought up that "talked to" probably meant torture. And sticking to the hypothetical discussion context mentioned before (= Le Chiffre accepting the offer of sanctuary), I just can't imagine somebody being tortured who agrees to give information voluntarely and out of fear in the first place (why make them even more scared?). The thought itself seems cruel and senseless, therefore shocking. It doesn't matter whether it's hypothetical or real. It's probably an ethical matter too.
So - you know, it's the whole discussion context. I didn't consider it necessary to repeat everything written before just to give a proper preface. From my perspective, the discussion itself IS the preface, i.e. the context itself.
Really, it was merely general interest and hypothetical thinking. I do that with all kinds of things all the time, sometimes all day long, as it's part of my actual job in real life (I practically earn money doing lots of hypothetical thinking in a professional way - but hypothetical thinking itself is very common too, isn't it? Might be an occupational habit though and I might be wrong about everybody doing it).
You can just close the thread now if it's such an annoyance and/or too confusing. I didn't want to cause any trouble or anything. I'm sorry.
"You don’t make art out of good intentions." - Gustave Flaubert;
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,755Chief of Staff
^ ah...I think you totally misunderstood my last post...
I wondered why you kept on referring to someone being torturred IF they were willing to cooperate - it was THAT thought that seemed to have no preface...you didn't reference that in your initial post at all - but afterwards it seemed to be the focal point...even though Le Chiffre wasn't threatened with torture if he handed himself him...
I wondered why you kept on referring to someone being torturred IF they were willing to cooperate
Yes, in comparison to White who WAS threatened with torture because he was obviously NOT about to cooperate voluntarely (Silhouette Man referred to that scene when the possibility of Le Chiffre being tortured during a hypothetical interrogation was brought up). So, the "preface" was still the context itself (from my perspective) and I didn't think it necessary to repeat everything that was written before (I even quoted Silhouette Man several times to make it clear I was referring to him - my later thoughts after googling actual laws and some information on interrogation psychology obviously included that part of the conversation too while still sticking to the hypothetical context of the first post). Seriously, it was just a conversation going on and I was referring to everything that ha been said so far.
And frankly speaking, I'm starting to feel really stupid and dumb. You're really freaking me out lol
Does really no one understand where I was coming from?
"You don’t make art out of good intentions." - Gustave Flaubert;
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
I wondered why you kept on referring to someone being torturred IF they were willing to cooperate
Yes, in comparison to White who WAS threatened with torture because he was obviously NOT about to cooperate voluntarely (Silhouette Man referred to that scene when the possibility of Le Chiffre being tortured during a hypothetical interrogation was brought up). So, the "preface" was still the context itself (from my perspective) and I didn't think it necessary to repeat everything that was written before (I even quoted Silhouette Man several times to make it clear I was referring to him - my later thoughts after googling actual laws and some information on interrogation psychology obviously included that part of the conversation too).
Frankly speaking, I'm starting to feel really stupid and dumb.
Does really no one understand where I was coming from?
No, you're not dumb at all. It's simply that (like all of us) you're learning about real-life Intelligence techniques and those (obviously) cannot be gleaned adequately from Bond films or novels alone.
If someone agrees to tell you everything there is no need to torture them. If they don't want to talk, I suppose you could say there are ways of getting them to open up. Torture produces unreliable evidence (i.e. people will say anything so that you will stop torturing them). I'm opposed to MI6 being shown to torture people (as CR and QoS implied) as torture is the preserve of the villain in my view (see Le Chiffre in CR and Oberhauser/Blofeld in Spectre for instance).
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
I wondered why you kept on referring to someone being torturred IF they were willing to cooperate
Yes, in comparison to White who WAS threatened with torture because he was obviously NOT about to cooperate voluntarely (Silhouette Man referred to that scene when the possibility of Le Chiffre being tortured during a hypothetical interrogation was brought up). So, the "preface" was still the context itself (from my perspective) and I didn't think it necessary to repeat everything that was written before (I even quoted Silhouette Man several times to make it clear I was referring to him - my later thoughts after googling actual laws and some information on interrogation psychology obviously included that part of the conversation too).
Frankly speaking, I'm starting to feel really stupid and dumb.
Does really no one understand where I was coming from?
No, you're not dumb at all. It's simply that (like all of us) you're learning about real-life Intelligence techniques and those (obviously) cannot be gleaned adequately from Bond films or novels alone.
Yes, that is why I started looking up actual real life information. And that's why I was wondering regarding the whole sanctuary thing in the first place.
Really, it was just the dynamics and context of the discussion itself and I was referring to everything that had been said so far when considering torture in the hypothetical context mentioned in my first post as shocking (in comparison to that scene with White).
lol I feel the need to read over my posts a thousand times now
"You don’t make art out of good intentions." - Gustave Flaubert;
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
Yes, in comparison to White who WAS threatened with torture because he was obviously NOT about to cooperate voluntarely (Silhouette Man referred to that scene when the possibility of Le Chiffre being tortured during a hypothetical interrogation was brought up). So, the "preface" was still the context itself (from my perspective) and I didn't think it necessary to repeat everything that was written before (I even quoted Silhouette Man several times to make it clear I was referring to him - my later thoughts after googling actual laws and some information on interrogation psychology obviously included that part of the conversation too).
Frankly speaking, I'm starting to feel really stupid and dumb.
Does really no one understand where I was coming from?
No, you're not dumb at all. It's simply that (like all of us) you're learning about real-life Intelligence techniques and those (obviously) cannot be gleaned adequately from Bond films or novels alone.
Yes, that is why I started looking up actual real life information. And that's why I was wondering regarding the whole sanctuary thing in the first place.
Really, it was just the dynamics and whole context of the discussion itself and I was referring to everything that had been said so far when considering torture in the hypothetical context mentioned in the first post as shocking (in comparison to White).
You're ok. It was just a slight misunderstanding, that's all. Sorry if I confused you in any way.
You're most welcome here. Stick around - we all had to start somewhere! -{ {[]
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
No, you're not dumb at all. It's simply that (like all of us) you're learning about real-life Intelligence techniques and those (obviously) cannot be gleaned adequately from Bond films or novels alone.
Yes, that is why I started looking up actual real life information. And that's why I was wondering regarding the whole sanctuary thing in the first place.
Really, it was just the dynamics and whole context of the discussion itself and I was referring to everything that had been said so far when considering torture in the hypothetical context mentioned in the first post as shocking (in comparison to White).
You're ok. It was just a slight misunderstanding, that's all. Sorry if I confused you in any way.
You didn't. But Sir Miles is somewhat freaking me out lol
You're most welcome here. Stick around - we all had to start somewhere! -{ {[]
I will. Thanks.
"You don’t make art out of good intentions." - Gustave Flaubert;
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
Yes, that is why I started looking up actual real life information. And that's why I was wondering regarding the whole sanctuary thing in the first place.
Really, it was just the dynamics and whole context of the discussion itself and I was referring to everything that had been said so far when considering torture in the hypothetical context mentioned in the first post as shocking (in comparison to White).
You're ok. It was just a slight misunderstanding, that's all. Sorry if I confused you in any way.
You didn't. But Sir Miles is somewhat freaking me out lol
You're most welcome here. Stick around - we all had to start somewhere! -{ {[]
I will. Thanks.
Don't worry - Sir Miles is actually very nice. You can take my word for that.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
It's just a complex topic I guess but I think you get the gist of how it works now?
Sure, I actually did before. I looked up some information as described above.
I was simply talking about the things I had learned because I wanted to discuss them with you guys, referring to the conversation as a whole... ^^
---
Please, if there's somebody out there - anybody - who understands where I was coming from, please support me in explaining what this was all about lol
PLEASE )
I think I'm right in saying that the confusion (understandably) came in the suggestion/implication that someone who proffered their full cooperation in a debriefing/interrogation would still be tortured. I think that this is the root of where the confusion started. I can understand why you may have thought that, actually. It doesn't seem all that strange to me. As I said, we all learn things about Bond/real Intelligence/whatever here on this forum. -{
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
It's just a complex topic I guess but I think you get the gist of how it works now?
Sure, I actually did before. I looked up some information as described above.
I was simply talking about the things I had learned because I wanted to discuss them with you guys, referring to the conversation as a whole... ^^
---
Please, if there's somebody out there - anybody - who understands where I was coming from, please support me in explaining what this was all about lol
PLEASE )
I think I'm right in saying that the confusion (understandably) came in the suggestion/implication that someone who proffered their full cooperation in a debriefing/interrogation would still be tortured. I think that this is the root of where the confusion started.
Defintely, as sniperUK put "talked to" in quotation marks whereupon Thunderpussy referred to waterboarding (as a torture method), even though the original context was the hypothetical thought of somebody proffering their full cooperation.
I can understand why you may have thought that, actually.
I didn't think so. Other people did. I, in fact, mentioned several times that it didn't make sense to me.
It doesn't seem all that strange to me.
I'm not sure. Referring back to the hypothetical context mentioned in the first post (Le Chiffre accepting the deal): I do think they (=MI6) might question him (=Le Chiffre) until he mightbe very worn out and tired and they might use that to their advantage (trying to find possible contradictions in case he'd be lying and such). It's illegal and it's probably torture in a psychological way, but interrogators turning a blind eye COULD be possible here as I do see how it COULD make sense (I'd oppose it though). So that doesn't sound very strange, yeah.
But I don't think anybody cooperative would be tortured in a physical way in any case (like the mentioned waterboarding). As said, it doesn't make sense to me. Especially in the case of Le Chiffre. He would accept the offer of sanctuary in exchange for information out of fear for his life probably, so he already would be very scared and without any choice but to cooperate. Why make him even more scared through torture then? That does seem strange and illogical to me. And there are studies that show that torture correlates with lies because victims just want the torture to stop as you already mentioned too. So he'd probably start to lie and make up stuff out of fear and pain according to statistics.
As I said, we all learn things about Bond/real Intelligence/whatever here on this forum. -{
I guess. -{
"You don’t make art out of good intentions." - Gustave Flaubert;
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
No, sorry, I simply meant it didn't seem strange that one could get confused. I agree that it would be very strange indeed if they were to torture Le Chiffre when he was coming willingly.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
No, sorry, I simply meant it didn't seem strange that one could get confused. I agree that it would be very strange indeed if they were to torture Le Chiffre when he was coming willingly.
Ah!
I completely agree. -{
"You don’t make art out of good intentions." - Gustave Flaubert;
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
No, sorry, I simply meant it didn't seem strange that one could get confused. I agree that it would be very strange indeed if they were to torture Le Chiffre when he was coming willingly.
Ah!
I completely agree. -{
Great. -{
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,755Chief of Staff
I just wondered why you were asking about Le Chiffre being tortured when it's never alluded too - that's all...I just thought you had misunderstood the film...
I just wondered why you were asking about Le Chiffre being tortured when it's never alluded too - that's all...I just thought you had misunderstood the film...
I freak everybody out - it's my job here
Ah, okay, now I understand what you meant. You're okay! I just didn't get what you were talking about haha
off topic: Gonna be watching Spectre (English version of course) for the second time in a few hours. Can't wait haha -{
"You don’t make art out of good intentions." - Gustave Flaubert;
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,755Chief of Staff
Comments
Ah...so you are shocked about something that wasn't ever going to happen ?:)
yeah, that's pretty much it, it's a hypothetical scenario.
is it really THAT absurd?
I'm not saying it's absurd - but certainly illogical...
You're English is very good - but you kept going on about something that wasn't going to happen - or even in the script...so I did wonder...
Well, it was just a hypothetical thought. ^^
I think about hypothetical things like that all the time to be honest, mostly James Bond unrelated stuff. ?:) Didn't know it was that uncommon lol
Ah, ok...but the hypothetical thought came from nowhere...you didn't preface it in any way...which led to the confusion
No, it didn't come from nowhere. The main question was what "sanctuary" meant in the hypothetical context that Le Chiffre had accepted the deal (as stated in the very first post) After people explained it to me and/or brought up their thoughts, I wondered how exactly they'd go through the whole procedure. Somebody brought up Le Chiffre would have been "talked to", so I thought that didn't sound pleasant (due to those quotation marks), whereafter somebody else brought up that "talked to" probably meant torture. And sticking to the hypothetical discussion context mentioned before (= Le Chiffre accepting the offer of sanctuary), I just can't imagine somebody being tortured who agrees to give information voluntarely and out of fear in the first place (why make them even more scared?). The thought itself seems cruel and senseless, therefore shocking. It doesn't matter whether it's hypothetical or real. It's probably an ethical matter too.
So - you know, it's the whole discussion context. I didn't consider it necessary to repeat everything written before just to give a proper preface. From my perspective, the discussion itself IS the preface, i.e. the context itself.
Really, it was merely general interest and hypothetical thinking. I do that with all kinds of things all the time, sometimes all day long, as it's part of my actual job in real life (I practically earn money doing lots of hypothetical thinking in a professional way - but hypothetical thinking itself is very common too, isn't it? Might be an occupational habit though and I might be wrong about everybody doing it).
You can just close the thread now if it's such an annoyance and/or too confusing.
I wondered why you kept on referring to someone being torturred IF they were willing to cooperate - it was THAT thought that seemed to have no preface...you didn't reference that in your initial post at all - but afterwards it seemed to be the focal point...even though Le Chiffre wasn't threatened with torture if he handed himself him...
I apologise if you didn't understand my meaning.
Yes, in comparison to White who WAS threatened with torture because he was obviously NOT about to cooperate voluntarely (Silhouette Man referred to that scene when the possibility of Le Chiffre being tortured during a hypothetical interrogation was brought up). So, the "preface" was still the context itself (from my perspective) and I didn't think it necessary to repeat everything that was written before (I even quoted Silhouette Man several times to make it clear I was referring to him - my later thoughts after googling actual laws and some information on interrogation psychology obviously included that part of the conversation too while still sticking to the hypothetical context of the first post). Seriously, it was just a conversation going on and I was referring to everything that ha been said so far.
And frankly speaking, I'm starting to feel really stupid and dumb.
Does really no one understand where I was coming from?
No, you're not dumb at all. It's simply that (like all of us) you're learning about real-life Intelligence techniques and those (obviously) cannot be gleaned adequately from Bond films or novels alone.
If someone agrees to tell you everything there is no need to torture them. If they don't want to talk, I suppose you could say there are ways of getting them to open up. Torture produces unreliable evidence (i.e. people will say anything so that you will stop torturing them). I'm opposed to MI6 being shown to torture people (as CR and QoS implied) as torture is the preserve of the villain in my view (see Le Chiffre in CR and Oberhauser/Blofeld in Spectre for instance).
Yes, that is why I started looking up actual real life information.
Really, it was just the dynamics and context of the discussion itself and I was referring to everything that had been said so far when considering torture in the hypothetical context mentioned in my first post as shocking (in comparison to that scene with White).
lol I feel the need to read over my posts a thousand times now
You're ok. It was just a slight misunderstanding, that's all. Sorry if I confused you in any way.
You're most welcome here. Stick around - we all had to start somewhere!
You didn't. But Sir Miles is somewhat freaking me out lol
I will.
Don't worry - Sir Miles is actually very nice. You can take my word for that.
He seems nice, it's just - I'm starting to doubt my ability to think and write coherently by now haha
I guess that's how Le Chiffre would feel during de-briefing.
Sure, I actually did before.
I was simply talking about the things I had learned because I wanted to discuss them with you guys, referring to the conversation as a whole...
---
Please, if there's somebody out there - anybody - who understands where I was coming from, please support me in explaining what this was all about lol
PLEASE
I think I'm right in saying that the confusion (understandably) came in the suggestion/implication that someone who proffered their full cooperation in a debriefing/interrogation would still be tortured. I think that this is the root of where the confusion started. I can understand why you may have thought that, actually. It doesn't seem all that strange to me. As I said, we all learn things about Bond/real Intelligence/whatever here on this forum.
Defintely, as sniperUK put "talked to" in quotation marks whereupon Thunderpussy referred to waterboarding (as a torture method), even though the original context was the hypothetical thought of somebody proffering their full cooperation.
I didn't think so. Other people did. I, in fact, mentioned several times that it didn't make sense to me.
I'm not sure. Referring back to the hypothetical context mentioned in the first post (Le Chiffre accepting the deal): I do think they (=MI6) might question him (=Le Chiffre) until he mightbe very worn out and tired and they might use that to their advantage (trying to find possible contradictions in case he'd be lying and such). It's illegal and it's probably torture in a psychological way, but interrogators turning a blind eye COULD be possible here as I do see how it COULD make sense (I'd oppose it though). So that doesn't sound very strange, yeah.
But I don't think anybody cooperative would be tortured in a physical way in any case (like the mentioned waterboarding). As said, it doesn't make sense to me. Especially in the case of Le Chiffre. He would accept the offer of sanctuary in exchange for information out of fear for his life probably, so he already would be very scared and without any choice but to cooperate. Why make him even more scared through torture then? That does seem strange and illogical to me. And there are studies that show that torture correlates with lies because victims just want the torture to stop as you already mentioned too. So he'd probably start to lie and make up stuff out of fear and pain according to statistics.
I guess.
Ah!
I completely agree. -{
Great.
I freak everybody out - it's my job here
Ah, okay, now I understand what you meant. You're okay! I just didn't get what you were talking about haha
off topic: Gonna be watching Spectre (English version of course) for the second time in a few hours. Can't wait haha