Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
The latest from Twitter on the indicative votes in Parliament:
@tnewtondunn
The Indicative Vote result on an alternative Brexit - NOTHING wins:
Common Market 2.0 (Boles) - 188 v 283
EFTA (Norway option) – 65 v 377
Customs union – 264 v 272
Labour's soft Brexit – 237 v 307
Revoking – 184 v 293
Confirmatory vote - 268 v 295
Managed No Deal – 139 v 422
9:44 PM - Mar 27, 2019
So much for leaving it to Parliament to sort out the "Brexit mess". 8-)
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
It goes both ways.
I can‘t see much listening to my arguments from the fellow Brexiteers - and rest assured that I am reading everything and am aware of the arguments of the Brexiteers.
What you say is incorrect and not judging me right.
And what you are asking of others, also applies to you. Please respect that people have a different opinion than you without being undemocratic or want to path the way to dictatorship.
Still love you in a strict heterosexual way
I did not ever said any where that I disagree with you. I am not sure if you have read my posts but I said I have no feeling either way on the Brexit issue so I am not sure how you come to the understanding that I oppose you?
I do agree that some people here seem to be making a sport of bating (is this the correct word?) but you make it so easy for them by seeming to lose your temper all the time. I think your last paragraph is just an attempt to put words into my mouth which you know I have not said just to simply be defensive.
I think I must make this last point clear. I do not think you are being deliberate in helping dictatorship and it hurts for me to think that you might think you are doing this on purpose, but I actually think you do this without knowing. Just as I think people who are trying to stop Brexit are helping to redicalise people and turn them to far right parties who they think will listen when the 'ordinary' politicians will not or go directly against them.
It is a dangerous path. You have not walked it yet. I have and that is why i try to warn you. And when I say 'you' I mean all people in England and Europe who are seen to put there opinions above the majority of the British voters.
Oh and before any body here thinks other wise. Higgins and me are JUST FRIENDS!
The latest from Twitter on the indicative votes in Parliament:
@tnewtondunn
The Indicative Vote result on an alternative Brexit - NOTHING wins:
Common Market 2.0 (Boles) - 188 v 283
EFTA (Norway option) – 65 v 377
Customs union – 264 v 272
Labour's soft Brexit – 237 v 307
Revoking – 184 v 293
Confirmatory vote - 268 v 295
Managed No Deal – 139 v 422
9:44 PM - Mar 27, 2019
So much for leaving it to Parliament to sort out the "Brexit mess". 8-)
At least it gives us an actual idea of what they want. I'm glad there is so little support for the EFTA option, because that would have messed with our agreement with the EU. A soft Brexit or a customs union has the most support, and they look like realsitic options to me. If only they had done this vote two years ago. Ideally the UK would leave before the election in the EU in May, because Britain taking part in that will be unfair to everyone. Negotiating a soft Brexit or a customs union is impossible in that time is impossible, but if the other options are taken off the table now the House can hopfully get behind one of the two options with the most votes. That would be a basis for getting a longer delay of Brexit with the EU.
I have copied the article I linked to because I think no body even bothered to read it.
Joolz Gale
24 March 2019
9:00 AM
What makes me chuckle about the Brexiteers is how little they understand the German mindset. Here in Germany, the European Union is a religion. It is ingrained so heavily in the DNA of nearly every German citizen that any reasoned argument to counter its domination, or challenge its direction, is swiftly dismissed. The integrity of the EU – its unity, identity, money and rules – is central to German identity. That’s why they’ve maintained such a tough stance over Brexit.
The Germans have been very good to me as a musician in Berlin over the past decade. But on Brexit, I am reminded that I am still deeply British. In recent weeks I have had a series of informal meetings and discussions with parliamentarians and officials on all political sides in Berlin. From those conversations, what’s clear is that the Germans think the British people want to remain in the EU but they just do not realise it yet. This explains the messy negotiations, the chaos of which (the Germans hope) will persuade the UK to change its mind. There is zero respect for the British position right now (although Theresa May’s embarrassing antics are not exactly helping) and zero understanding of why Brits might vote to leave.
But we have to see where this approach comes from. First, the culture of discourse and debate in Germany is not like in the UK (which is why people here view the mess of the House of Commons with contempt rather than with admiration for a healthy democracy). Germans fear that the forceful expression of opinion can be deemed dangerously persuasive, especially when charismatic rhetoric can so easily manipulate the emotions of listeners. Second, nationalism is a dirty and often misunderstood word (thanks to National Socialism). Generations of school children have been brainwashed into thinking that the EU project is integral to German national identity, thankful for the role Europe has played in uniting a new and prosperous Germany. Putting the two together, one begins to understand that the EU project has replaced national love.
I call this a religion because there is no tolerance for an alternative political vision. The groupthink mentality of liberal Germany means that EU loyalty is unquestioned. The rise of extremist parties (such as the AfD) is evidence of the Germans’ reluctance to debate this.
Indeed, this EU piety has made Germans so blind to the causes of Brexit that they now risk the whole EU project falling apart.
No one that I’ve met here actually wants to know why Brexit happened. They prefer to think of Brexiteers as crazy, delusional, far-right radicals who want to go back to the old days of Empire (and believe me, the Empire is brought up – no joke – by every single German I speak to about Brexit), or simply as idiots believing the lies of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage (the two are usually mentioned in the same sentence, with no awareness from the utterer that the two men ran different campaigns). There is no sense here of humility or responsibility for what has happened, nor an idea of how sophisticated the motivations behind Brexit are.
Everyday I hear how Brexit can only be a mess. Yet my Berliner friends forget that 40 years of laws and regulations will always be difficult to break free from – it is precisely this mess that proves just how deeply ingrained the EU is in nearly everything Brits do. My friends also cannot understand how, to properly represent voters, there might be a limit to the institutional layers placed between the voters and those in power, of which the EU adds many. This is because the idea of nationhood and federalism in Germany is – and has been ever since WW2 – wholly different to that of the seafaring British.
Today, it is easy to understand what the EU does for Germany, especially economically. In their Nietzschean nature, the Germans are fiercely competitive. It’s something I like about them very much. When it comes to global politics, the EU allows Germany to call the shots while masking the country’s true power. Before Brexit, the major powers seemed balanced. By leaving the EU, Britain exposes German dominance whilst challenging the status quo. It is this challenge that makes most Germans I know vindictive about Brexit: to the detriment of friendship, they would prefer any future deal to be a deterrent to other nations that might think of leaving their very convenient club.
Of course, my dear Germans friends are not the only ones that lack patience for alternative ideas. Vast swathes of the liberal ruling EU elite suffer from it, hence their general disconnect with the voters. However, it’s important to understand that anyone who thinks religiously about something will probably not be able to contemplate alternative views. That’s because religion is faith and faith is unreasoned, so rational argument is never enough. We Brits need to start understanding this German-European mind-set. Perhaps we will then be better at negotiating with them.
Joshua, that Spectator article was a good read - though I feel I should point out that there isn't much real democracy in the UK once you scratch the surface. The so-called regulators are quite corrupt and the complaints process is rigged, in fact it's basically there to carry out surveillance on complainants and whistleblowers - they go to them and tell them everything, free of charge! Said regulator can then tip off the business concerned that there is someone on their payrole/turf who is making trouble.
That happens with the Care Quality Commission (CQC) and its care homes, but also the Nurse & Midwifery Council (NMC) which subjected one complainant to surveillance, monitoring his Facebook page etc...
That said, I've not heard much in the way of criticism of the EU since the Brexit result in the papers, no stories about the gravy train or corruption and so on. Did it all go away or was it never true, I wonder?
I put the article there to try to show that Higgins view is one from Germany and that perhaps the British cannot understand it - or why the Germans can not understand the British atitudes. It has be pointed out to me that the article says that German people are brain washed. This I did not see and I do not agree with that point.
I agree in some respects about democracy. I do not know if you agree with me though that if the people are given a vote and they are promised that their decision is final, it is no good for anybody that the establishment begins to back pedal the very same day as the result is announced. Because the politicians made the mistake, the British people should have their votes diluted or dismised as a result. I continue to believe that many people do not really value their vote in Europe and forget what it took to win those same votes. They are the only way the people can express their voice and power. To have this diluted or reversed by people in government who do not agree is a very dangerous road to travel.
My only interest in Brexit is that the vote is respected. If it isn't then you can all wave goodbye to your rights. Perhaps not straght away but sooner than you think. And once they are gone you will not get them back.
you have posted an opinion of ONE UK citizen explaining how ALL germans think?
I did not want to reply to the entire piece, but I'll certainly not let you speak and explain a "german mindset".
What I dispute is the part in your article, that we have been brainwashed to like the EU. That's a bit ott - or better very offensive.
And it shows the nasty nature of the author! (not of you, Joshua!)
And maybe as a counterperspective - the perception of the majority of germans is not so much different to the perception of the people in France. It's not unique to Germans to like and support the EU!
And you will have to find a single EU country, which is NOT annoyed about what's going on in the UK in terms of Brexit.
So, maybe it'll be better for the UK citizens asking what is wrong with them because the rest of the EU in majority* has no understanding about the UK's position that it's necessary to leave the EU and all the hate for it.
* I know that we have Anti- EU populists in those countries, but they are far from being in the majority.
So your article is interesting to read - nothing more and nothing less.
Generations of school children have been brainwashed into thinking that the EU project is integral to German national identity, thankful for the role Europe has played in uniting a new and prosperous Germany. Putting the two together, one begins to understand that the EU project has replaced national love.
I call this a religion because there is no tolerance for an alternative political vision. The groupthink mentality of liberal Germany means that EU loyalty is unquestioned.
.......
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
And I already said I do not agree agree with the brain wash part.
I am not speaking for any one, it is the reporters article not mine.
Yes I guess that every country is annoyed by brexit even the UK, but in the UK i think it will be for different reasons to Europe.
I do speak to people at work. Many of them are for Brexit and even more so with is what is happening in parliament but also mention that the EU is continues to 'interfere' in british business. I think that it was never a happy marrage and the EU has been used as a whipping boy to cover many mistakes by the british goverments, but the British do not seem to like the EU. They made their choice.
It is never good to under estimate an enemy. In this case the enemy is extremism. I think by talking to people (remember I am a black man) the anger that they have can very quickly be used by Nazis and far right extremism. It was only on the TV news the other day that such extremism is very much rising in the UK. Take these far right people and people who are angry about not being listened to and the result is not good. I think UKIP party took 4 million votes at one General election. While I do not really know much about UKIP policies, I think they are very much the populist party you speak about.
I think we should be really csrefull about complaining that our countries aren't "really democratic". Of course we should be critical of the aspects of politics we disagree with, that's something people can and should do to keep a democracy alive. But claiming democracies aren't really democratic is just the kind of messege people like Putin wants to spread. That attittude can be a slippery slope - from "the systems in the West aren't really democratic" to "since no system is really democratic, why not get a strong leader like Putin. At least he gets things done!" . Criticise the weaknesses in our governments, but please remember we live in the most free and democratic countries in the world, with systems that allow us to criticise.
My friend Higgins. Would it be possible to make a new post instead of editing on important matters to you? I say this only because I happened to see that you have added 'offence' to your last post. I of course replied to the post before it was edited but any one reading it would not know this.
PS I know you did not mean me and I did not attempt to give you offence by posting that article, but i think you also know that I have not actyed in malice. I will sit down and write a proper post. This I do several times of writing and reading to make sure I am making my self understood as I wish to be and not being misintrepeted because of my poor written English. This will take a little time though. Hopefully it will make every one here understand what i mean about my strong feelings that votes are respected and not currupted by the politicians.
As for Brexit and the EU and UK, you keep fighting among your selfs about that. My only point in this affair is to make people (every one) realise that something that you all take for granted can be taken from you if you are not careful.
Please Joshua, no more posts about me and/or about german people.
This thread is about UK politics and not about me.
And it's not about that article that you have quoted. If you want to discuss this article, please open a new string - but I won't participate.
Thank you!
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I feel the British people and their attitude to society in general and particularly has been discussed many times on this thread. Since Germany is a such an important player in EU I think it's only natural to post an article about Germans' attitude to society and the EU.
In other words: I think Joshua's post containing the article was appropriate and had a natural place in this thread.
A hopeless lot - who the hell picked them to sit in Parliament?
Unfortunately the UK electorate were responsible for that, but come the next general election I would expect there to be many changes in personnel on the green benches at Westminster.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
I wonder what will happen to the party structure in the UK, especially Labour and the Tories? A number of MPs have gone independent in this period, will one or more new parties emerge? The Whigs were one of the two big parties back in the day (I'm reading a biography on Queen Victoria), major changes can happen again. I mean, since the traditional parties sees so split on Brexit. Perhaps the a new party will be formed, perhaps mainly from the Tories this time? What do you think?
Heard a fact on the radio today, which I did look up to
Check my figures How the constituencies of the two
Major parties voted on Brexit to leave.
Conservative around 70% voted Leave
Labour around 60% voted leave
I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, just interesting
To see the percentages.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
I wonder what will happen to the party structure in the UK, especially Labour and the Tories? A number of MPs have gone independent in this period, will one or more new parties emerge? The Whigs were one of the two big parties back in the day (I'm reading a biography on Queen Victoria), major changes can happen again. I mean, since the traditional parties sees so split on Brexit. Perhaps the a new party will be formed, perhaps mainly from the Tories this time? What do you think?
) looks as if Dominic Grieve is facing de-selection
As an MP in his constituency. He should have resigned
From the conservatives and joined the new independent
Group, he'd have been safe ,........ for a while at least.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Comments
@tnewtondunn
The Indicative Vote result on an alternative Brexit - NOTHING wins:
Common Market 2.0 (Boles) - 188 v 283
EFTA (Norway option) – 65 v 377
Customs union – 264 v 272
Labour's soft Brexit – 237 v 307
Revoking – 184 v 293
Confirmatory vote - 268 v 295
Managed No Deal – 139 v 422
9:44 PM - Mar 27, 2019
So much for leaving it to Parliament to sort out the "Brexit mess". 8-)
I did not ever said any where that I disagree with you. I am not sure if you have read my posts but I said I have no feeling either way on the Brexit issue so I am not sure how you come to the understanding that I oppose you?
I do agree that some people here seem to be making a sport of bating (is this the correct word?) but you make it so easy for them by seeming to lose your temper all the time. I think your last paragraph is just an attempt to put words into my mouth which you know I have not said just to simply be defensive.
I think I must make this last point clear. I do not think you are being deliberate in helping dictatorship and it hurts for me to think that you might think you are doing this on purpose, but I actually think you do this without knowing. Just as I think people who are trying to stop Brexit are helping to redicalise people and turn them to far right parties who they think will listen when the 'ordinary' politicians will not or go directly against them.
It is a dangerous path. You have not walked it yet. I have and that is why i try to warn you. And when I say 'you' I mean all people in England and Europe who are seen to put there opinions above the majority of the British voters.
Oh and before any body here thinks other wise. Higgins and me are JUST FRIENDS!
At least it gives us an actual idea of what they want. I'm glad there is so little support for the EFTA option, because that would have messed with our agreement with the EU. A soft Brexit or a customs union has the most support, and they look like realsitic options to me. If only they had done this vote two years ago. Ideally the UK would leave before the election in the EU in May, because Britain taking part in that will be unfair to everyone. Negotiating a soft Brexit or a customs union is impossible in that time is impossible, but if the other options are taken off the table now the House can hopfully get behind one of the two options with the most votes. That would be a basis for getting a longer delay of Brexit with the EU.
In interesting perspective
I'm glad to be not included in that list.
(The word is "baiting", btw)
Barbel, you certainly have a weird kind of humor
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Sums the entire dilemma and the last 3 years events up pretty well.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
That happens with the Care Quality Commission (CQC) and its care homes, but also the Nurse & Midwifery Council (NMC) which subjected one complainant to surveillance, monitoring his Facebook page etc...
That said, I've not heard much in the way of criticism of the EU since the Brexit result in the papers, no stories about the gravy train or corruption and so on. Did it all go away or was it never true, I wonder?
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I agree in some respects about democracy. I do not know if you agree with me though that if the people are given a vote and they are promised that their decision is final, it is no good for anybody that the establishment begins to back pedal the very same day as the result is announced. Because the politicians made the mistake, the British people should have their votes diluted or dismised as a result. I continue to believe that many people do not really value their vote in Europe and forget what it took to win those same votes. They are the only way the people can express their voice and power. To have this diluted or reversed by people in government who do not agree is a very dangerous road to travel.
My only interest in Brexit is that the vote is respected. If it isn't then you can all wave goodbye to your rights. Perhaps not straght away but sooner than you think. And once they are gone you will not get them back.
you have posted an opinion of ONE UK citizen explaining how ALL germans think?
I did not want to reply to the entire piece, but I'll certainly not let you speak and explain a "german mindset".
What I dispute is the part in your article, that we have been brainwashed to like the EU. That's a bit ott - or better very offensive.
And it shows the nasty nature of the author! (not of you, Joshua!)
And maybe as a counterperspective - the perception of the majority of germans is not so much different to the perception of the people in France. It's not unique to Germans to like and support the EU!
And you will have to find a single EU country, which is NOT annoyed about what's going on in the UK in terms of Brexit.
So, maybe it'll be better for the UK citizens asking what is wrong with them because the rest of the EU in majority* has no understanding about the UK's position that it's necessary to leave the EU and all the hate for it.
* I know that we have Anti- EU populists in those countries, but they are far from being in the majority.
So your article is interesting to read - nothing more and nothing less.
I am quoting the offensive part here again:
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I am not speaking for any one, it is the reporters article not mine.
Yes I guess that every country is annoyed by brexit even the UK, but in the UK i think it will be for different reasons to Europe.
I do speak to people at work. Many of them are for Brexit and even more so with is what is happening in parliament but also mention that the EU is continues to 'interfere' in british business. I think that it was never a happy marrage and the EU has been used as a whipping boy to cover many mistakes by the british goverments, but the British do not seem to like the EU. They made their choice.
It is never good to under estimate an enemy. In this case the enemy is extremism. I think by talking to people (remember I am a black man) the anger that they have can very quickly be used by Nazis and far right extremism. It was only on the TV news the other day that such extremism is very much rising in the UK. Take these far right people and people who are angry about not being listened to and the result is not good. I think UKIP party took 4 million votes at one General election. While I do not really know much about UKIP policies, I think they are very much the populist party you speak about.
PS I know you did not mean me and I did not attempt to give you offence by posting that article, but i think you also know that I have not actyed in malice. I will sit down and write a proper post. This I do several times of writing and reading to make sure I am making my self understood as I wish to be and not being misintrepeted because of my poor written English. This will take a little time though. Hopefully it will make every one here understand what i mean about my strong feelings that votes are respected and not currupted by the politicians.
As for Brexit and the EU and UK, you keep fighting among your selfs about that. My only point in this affair is to make people (every one) realise that something that you all take for granted can be taken from you if you are not careful.
This thread is about UK politics and not about me.
And it's not about that article that you have quoted. If you want to discuss this article, please open a new string - but I won't participate.
Thank you!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I will not mention you any further in this topic and not German peoples either if it makes you happy.
I again made the reply before the edit!
In other words: I think Joshua's post containing the article was appropriate and had a natural place in this thread.
Yes, it's high time to dissolve Parliament...in sulfuric acid!
Unfortunately the UK electorate were responsible for that, but come the next general election I would expect there to be many changes in personnel on the green benches at Westminster.
Check my figures
Major parties voted on Brexit to leave.
Conservative around 70% voted Leave
Labour around 60% voted leave
I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, just interesting
To see the percentages.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47745166
Is this what you mean, N24?
As an MP in his constituency. He should have resigned
From the conservatives and joined the new independent
Group, he'd have been safe ,........ for a while at least.