I have had time to sit down and properly write a post. I hope this goes some way to explaining my strong feeling that, what ever the result of a free and fair vote then that result must be honoured.
I come from a country where the minority rules. The wishes of the majority are crushed under foot. On many occasions this manifests itself in the form of intimidation, violence and murder. While I am not saying that this would happen in England I will warn you of the dangers of allowing the result of a free and fair ballot to be ignored.
A lot of people are dismissive of the fact and perhaps think I am over dramatising, they come up with different excuses why this vote should be reversed or ignored. I say it should stand what ever the circumstances. People did not know what they were voting for? True in terms of economics in some instances, but that should never be used as an excuse by those who disagree with the result. Besides which I feel the heart of the matter goes much more beyond economics. Form speaking to people I get the impression that the march towards EU federalism is one, if not the most important factor in the whole debate from the perspective of the people who voted to leave the EU. This is not as wrongly reported, the result of extreme right wing feelings among the British people, but just because they do not want their independent nation to become a province of a EU superstate. It is also true that the EU has been used as a scapegoat for many years by politicians to cover up their own mistakes and short comings, however to claim that the British people are not intelligent enough to realise this is an insult to them.
To allow the over turning of such a critical vote will be to destroy all confidence in the British political system. If people feel that their verdict does not count then they will surely turn to parties who claim to truly represent them. These are usually the so called ‘populist’ parties, but more often than not these will be of extreme right wing in nature.
We must remember at all times that the politicians voted to hold the referendum, they promised not only to respect the result, they voted to trigger article 50. During the referendum campaign it was made quite clear by the government that the verdict would be acted on and the vote would be a once in a generation opportunity for the British people to have their say on Europe.
The British people delivered their verdict, the result was close but the verdict was delivered none the less. They then expected the promises to be honoured by their politicians as they were told. However they have stood by to see them begin to back pedal ever since. At the general election the Conservative and Labour parties both promised to honour the result. Since then many MPs have gone directly against the wishes of the people who voted them in to office on the back of those very same promises and put personal opinion above the wished of their constituents. I live in one of the areas where the people voted to leave by a large percentage but now their MP is going completely against them. The fury amongst many people is very real as a result.
The trust between politicians and the voting public has (I think) never been great but it has now all but collapsed. This opens the way for the extreme parties as I mentioned earlier.
Going forward, does the United Kingdom allow itself to be ruled by the minority view? If this is the case then voting becomes irrelevant. If the precedent is set where by a majority vote can be over turned (which is what many MPs and reactionary groups seem to be working towards) then what does that mean for the future? It means that the government, any government, in the United Kingdom knows that it can over turn or go against the wishes of the people. If it happens once then they know they can do it again. All those people who shout for another referendum will suddenly realise that their votes do not count for any thing any more. You then find yourselves in the position I was in. Where voting was nothing but a sham and any opposing votes counted for nothing.
This stable door has been opened. You can not close it again. The referendum result must be upheld, because in my opinion the cost of not doing so far outweighs the cost of leaving the EU.
) looks as if Dominic Grieve is facing de-selection
As an MP in his constituency. He should have resigned
From the conservatives and joined the new independent
Group, he'd have been safe ,........ for a while at least.
Good riddance to bad rubbish. -{
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
I wonder what will happen to the party structure in the UK, especially Labour and the Tories? A number of MPs have gone independent in this period, will one or more new parties emerge? The Whigs were one of the two big parties back in the day (I'm reading a biography on Queen Victoria), major changes can happen again. I mean, since the traditional parties sees so split on Brexit. Perhaps the a new party will be formed, perhaps mainly from the Tories this time? What do you think?
I don't think the teaty or the House has changed since the three first times, so it seems a bit optimsitic. It looks to me the most realisitic option is some sort of deal that involves staying in the customs union, but making a clean break from other aspect of the Union. In that case it involves paying the EU for the open border for trade and possibly following some laws and regulations involving trade. A bit like the Norway deal, but more independent from the EU.
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
I think the time is overdue when mps need to abandon being whipped to vote by party leaders and allowed free votes. Its also time to abandon unworkable party manifesto promises. Brexit was always more important than party politics.
Its also time to abandon unworkable party manifesto promises.
Maybe, it‘s about time to abandon unworkable Brexit promises?
I really fail to understand insisting on ‚they promised to respect ( I respect Barbel but don‘t do everything that he‘s asking me as an example) the Brexit vote and at the same time telling us, that ‚they‘ have lied all the time and still do nd they are doing it all the time.
I refer to a comment where Farage admits that immigration was the topic that mobilised people and that has been put down by saying ‚you say, that he‘s a liar and now you believe him‘
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Having said that, I am afraid that freeing MPs votes will not bring the necessary majority.
It‘ll still be 33/33/34% and the divisions are within the parties themselves.
I seriously wonder, what Labour and Tories will be campaigning for/against, if there is a new election.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Having said that, I am afraid that freeing MPs votes will not bring the necessary majority.
It‘ll still be 33/33/34% and the divisions are within the parties themselves.
I seriously wonder, what Labour and Tories will be campaigning for/against, if there is a new election.
That can't be stated, on every vote for the withdrawal agreement Labour have whipped the mps to vote against the government, who knows how many would vote differently in a free vote.
Yes, but remember, that there are people with the Tories, that will vote against executing a Hard Brexit, too. And there are certainly a larger number of remainers among them, probably to the same degree like there are Brexiteers within Labour.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I don‘t want to imagine how the votes shift to direction of the populists, if the UK crash out in the night before the elections.
Another evidence, that UK politics is just about the UK, the EU is only involved in the process when blamegamings are going on or to help out again and again.
Cards on the table on 10 April, please
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
On the other hand, stripping protesters would give the dreary EU Parliament some much needed fun and exitement )
I don't understand why the House of Commons didin't vote to see what kind of Brexit they wanted long ago. After all the Brexit election was a vote about what the British people DIDN'T want, not what they wanted. That way all these extentions of the leave date may not have been necessery.
I said from the word go, that there should have been a cross parliamentary group to come up with a deal to take to the EU for negotiation. Let's not forget that both Labour and the tories pledged to deliver brexit, on that basis there is common ground, what we have had is mps voting against their constituents votes to follow party lines. Corbyn will always attempt to vote down anything the government puts forward. In its purest form this is undemocratic and serves to frustrate progress in the house.
Let's not forget, that this kind of tactics (voting everything down just to reach power) is not totally excluisive to Corbyn or Labour.
If you are going for independent votes (and imo that's how it should be always) then it should not only apply to cases where it brings your supported corner advantages.
Matter of fact, Mrs. May is not able to bring her parliament majority behind her politics and now blaming the other side for being obstructionist and thus undemocratic is a bit lame imo.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I think the two big parties will get a surprise in the next
Election, I predict voting numbers down with UKIP and
Other Brexit parties taking a big share of the vote. Then
The fun of getting plenty of UKIP MEPs in to the EU
Parliament after the European elections. )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
.....and Putin/Bannon will be closer to his goal of totally destabilizing the West.
Hope that we all are not that stupid and shortsighted to play his hand.
Being angry at your politicians is ok, but destroying the century old democracy just out of anger seems not so smart.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Comments
I have had time to sit down and properly write a post. I hope this goes some way to explaining my strong feeling that, what ever the result of a free and fair vote then that result must be honoured.
I come from a country where the minority rules. The wishes of the majority are crushed under foot. On many occasions this manifests itself in the form of intimidation, violence and murder. While I am not saying that this would happen in England I will warn you of the dangers of allowing the result of a free and fair ballot to be ignored.
A lot of people are dismissive of the fact and perhaps think I am over dramatising, they come up with different excuses why this vote should be reversed or ignored. I say it should stand what ever the circumstances. People did not know what they were voting for? True in terms of economics in some instances, but that should never be used as an excuse by those who disagree with the result. Besides which I feel the heart of the matter goes much more beyond economics. Form speaking to people I get the impression that the march towards EU federalism is one, if not the most important factor in the whole debate from the perspective of the people who voted to leave the EU. This is not as wrongly reported, the result of extreme right wing feelings among the British people, but just because they do not want their independent nation to become a province of a EU superstate. It is also true that the EU has been used as a scapegoat for many years by politicians to cover up their own mistakes and short comings, however to claim that the British people are not intelligent enough to realise this is an insult to them.
To allow the over turning of such a critical vote will be to destroy all confidence in the British political system. If people feel that their verdict does not count then they will surely turn to parties who claim to truly represent them. These are usually the so called ‘populist’ parties, but more often than not these will be of extreme right wing in nature.
We must remember at all times that the politicians voted to hold the referendum, they promised not only to respect the result, they voted to trigger article 50. During the referendum campaign it was made quite clear by the government that the verdict would be acted on and the vote would be a once in a generation opportunity for the British people to have their say on Europe.
The British people delivered their verdict, the result was close but the verdict was delivered none the less. They then expected the promises to be honoured by their politicians as they were told. However they have stood by to see them begin to back pedal ever since. At the general election the Conservative and Labour parties both promised to honour the result. Since then many MPs have gone directly against the wishes of the people who voted them in to office on the back of those very same promises and put personal opinion above the wished of their constituents. I live in one of the areas where the people voted to leave by a large percentage but now their MP is going completely against them. The fury amongst many people is very real as a result.
The trust between politicians and the voting public has (I think) never been great but it has now all but collapsed. This opens the way for the extreme parties as I mentioned earlier.
Going forward, does the United Kingdom allow itself to be ruled by the minority view? If this is the case then voting becomes irrelevant. If the precedent is set where by a majority vote can be over turned (which is what many MPs and reactionary groups seem to be working towards) then what does that mean for the future? It means that the government, any government, in the United Kingdom knows that it can over turn or go against the wishes of the people. If it happens once then they know they can do it again. All those people who shout for another referendum will suddenly realise that their votes do not count for any thing any more. You then find yourselves in the position I was in. Where voting was nothing but a sham and any opposing votes counted for nothing.
This stable door has been opened. You can not close it again. The referendum result must be upheld, because in my opinion the cost of not doing so far outweighs the cost of leaving the EU.
Thank you.
Are you not now breaking EU law by sharing this?!
Good riddance to bad rubbish. -{
That's precisely what I was thinking of
May the Fourth be with her!
I see you're keeping abreast of things.
Nick Boles
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Maybe, it‘s about time to abandon unworkable Brexit promises?
I really fail to understand insisting on ‚they promised to respect ( I respect Barbel but don‘t do everything that he‘s asking me as an example) the Brexit vote and at the same time telling us, that ‚they‘ have lied all the time and still do nd they are doing it all the time.
I refer to a comment where Farage admits that immigration was the topic that mobilised people and that has been put down by saying ‚you say, that he‘s a liar and now you believe him‘
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
It‘ll still be 33/33/34% and the divisions are within the parties themselves.
I seriously wonder, what Labour and Tories will be campaigning for/against, if there is a new election.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Ok, maybe not. I‘ve lied
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I don‘t want to imagine how the votes shift to direction of the populists, if the UK crash out in the night before the elections.
Another evidence, that UK politics is just about the UK, the EU is only involved in the process when blamegamings are going on or to help out again and again.
Cards on the table on 10 April, please
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I don't understand why the House of Commons didin't vote to see what kind of Brexit they wanted long ago. After all the Brexit election was a vote about what the British people DIDN'T want, not what they wanted. That way all these extentions of the leave date may not have been necessery.
The commons yesterday ....... so much the same as
Usual.
Let's not forget, that this kind of tactics (voting everything down just to reach power) is not totally excluisive to Corbyn or Labour.
If you are going for independent votes (and imo that's how it should be always) then it should not only apply to cases where it brings your supported corner advantages.
Matter of fact, Mrs. May is not able to bring her parliament majority behind her politics and now blaming the other side for being obstructionist and thus undemocratic is a bit lame imo.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Election, I predict voting numbers down with UKIP and
Other Brexit parties taking a big share of the vote. Then
The fun of getting plenty of UKIP MEPs in to the EU
Parliament after the European elections.
Hope that we all are not that stupid and shortsighted to play his hand.
Being angry at your politicians is ok, but destroying the century old democracy just out of anger seems not so smart.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!