Which were all put down as scaremongering, may I add.
I am sure that more than 50% of the voters just put it down as evil EU propaganda ( wasnt the info paper blue with golden stars at the front?)
I think, my point is valid, because it only counts, what is written on the paper.
That was the vote, nothing else - and that brings me back to my point, that the referendum was amateurishly initiated, prepared and executed. It was a total joke!
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The interesting thing with this discussion is that TP lives in a part of the world that has become a brexit battleground and Joshua speaks as someone who has migrated to the UK from an oppressive regime, which adds a healthy balance to the debate and unique view points.
Totally agree - but again it stops when opposing views are labeled as undemocratic, treasonist and worse
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Which were all put down as scaremongering, may I add.
I am sure that more than 50% of the voters just put it down as evil EU propaganda ( wasnt the info paper blue with golden stars at the front?)
I think, my point is valid, because it only counts, what is written on the paper.
That was the vote, nothing else - and that brings me back to my point, that the referendum was amateurishly initiated, prepared and executed. It was a total joke!
And promises of millions of pounds for the NHS we're put down as fanciful.
So the referendum should have had a 3 line choice?
Leave with a deal,
Leave without a deal
Remain.
I think leave would still have won.
To me there is another important issue to come out of Brexit, why did we get here in the first place? I don't believe the EU is blameless, Cameron went to renogatiate the uks position, fully aware of the growing anti EU establishment feeling's in the UK, and for that matter accross Europe, IF the EU had implemented some form of reform to be seen as listening to the distant bells of disharmony perhaps the brexit vote might have been different, and the EU could have been seen by many as a working cooperative that evolves more. I do think a mix of complacency and arrogance were involved on all sides. Further more after the recent March in London by the remainers the EU stated that it would be undemocratic to ignore those million ish voices as voices of Europeans, how is it then democratic to ignore the many millions of voices that scream out for change, not only in the UK but accross the other member states?
Higgins point B is not particularly valid, as we had promises of utter economic and societal devastation should we vote to leave the EU.those warnings appear not to have influenced the voters.
It‘s not blue with gold stars, but I invite everybody to check the leaflet themselfs.
I fail to find promises „of utter economic and societal devastation,“ so I insist that I have a valid point.
Higgins point B is not particularly valid, as we had promises of utter economic and societal devastation should we vote to leave the EU.those warnings appear not to have influenced the voters.
It‘s not blue with gold stars, but I invite everybody to check the leaflet themselfs.
I fail to find promises „of utter economic and societal devastation,“ so I insist that I have a valid point.
I read it when it landed on my doormat. I was also witness to the brexit bus shambles and the wide reports from Osborne insisting jobs would be lost, the markets would crash, business would die etc etc.
To me there is another important issue to come out of Brexit, why did we get here in the first place? I don't believe the EU is blameless, Cameron went to renogatiate the uks position, fully aware of the growing anti EU establishment feeling's in the UK, and for that matter accross Europe, IF the EU had implemented some form of reform to be seen as listening to the distant bells of disharmony perhaps the brexit vote might have been different, and the EU could have been seen by many as a working cooperative that evolves more. I do think a mix of complacency and arrogance were involved on all sides. Further more after the recent March in London by the remainers the EU stated that it would be undemocratic to ignore those million ish voices as voices of Europeans, how is it then democratic to ignore the many millions of voices that scream out for change, not only in the UK but accross the other member states?
Cameron wanted more individual benefits for the UK after decades of special rebates and benefits * because the UK constantly threatened the EU with a referendum to leave.
Cameron wanted special voting powers and so on, the interest in reforming the EU ( and that within months) was not really on his agenda.
And, sorry, old friend, I must repeat:
The UK could have exited long time ago, but the parliament and in particular the Tories could not and still can‘t agree on how to leave the EU.
Making the EU responsible for that and calling them undemocratic because the will of people is not executed falls short. Blame the UK politicians, please
* known EU-wide as cherrypicking
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Higgins point B is not particularly valid, as we had promises of utter economic and societal devastation should we vote to leave the EU.those warnings appear not to have influenced the voters.
It‘s not blue with gold stars, but I invite everybody to check the leaflet themselfs.
I fail to find promises „of utter economic and societal devastation,“ so I insist that I have a valid point.
I read it when it landed on my doormat. I was also witness to the brexit bus shambles and the wide reports from Osborne insisting jobs would be lost, the markets would crash, business would die etc etc.
But that was not on the ballot paper - and that is my point.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
To the person who was trying to silence my opinion outside this arena and then asked me not to mention his name I will stand by my word not to mention names.
N24 you are being played. The method is simple. Gather as many people who have said something, anything, which is seen as an agreement then try to build a coalition to further a viewpoint which is nothing but corrosive and incapable of any form of diverse thought.…..
I am unsure for now of the intention of bringing up of my pointing out that I have been a political prisoner, a prisoner who was held only because I believed in people having the right to vote and that vote to be respected. Try it, I don’t think many could endure being beaten and tortured and taken out for mock execution with a gun to their head and even worse things for their family. I am unsure if this is an attack and only because I am unsure that I hold my temper. Please go through this experience and have the mental and physical scars and tell me if you then value a vote and that votes should be respected. You will then perhaps begin in some small way to understand why my belief cannot be silenced. Thankfully you in Europe know nothing of this (yet) but the first step comes when you allow your votes to be undermined and called racists or fools or other things simply for exercising your vote. Interestingly enough I am away from work ill for this past week because of some injuries from that time. They are a not nice reminder of of the importance of free votes, and I can just look in the mirror every time I need to be reminded at other times.
I ask every one here who has interest to go through my posts and see what I have said. I have already pointed out that the Brexit is the fault of the politicians of the UK. I have also pointed out many other things, including the decision was to leave. I look with great interest at the attempt to misinterpret things in order to further an agenda which is built only upon propaganda of its own. As we all know by know written words that fall on blind eyes are worthless. The main point to remember is that to dare to disagree makes me an enemy. This is indeed the stumbling block and the reason this debate will never advance beyond the trenches. The only positive is that it exposes the real extremists in this debate.
Some of us here must remember going forward that to debate with those who are not mature or mentally capable enough to accept the concept that people have different opinions means there is no point to their ‘arguments’ other than to argue for arguments sake.
But then again who am I? I am just a fool who does not walk the same path as the policially righteous.
Not for long when indyref2 kicks in
Which should also be fun )
I wouldn't worry, theoretically as Scotland voted to remain in the EU it should vote to remain in the UK. The SNP could even reuse the old leaflets "together we are stronger" and my personal favourite "no country is an island" even the island of Ireland is not an island.... Or is it? Or perhaps the British Isles are not an island?
I am pretty sure the Scottish independence question will once again be asked though.
To the person who was trying to silence my opinion outside this arena and then asked me not to mention his name I will stand by my word not to mention names.
And before any legends are made, this is what I did pm to Joshua:
Hello Joshua,
I am certainly glad that you are back on AJB.
What I don't like is how you are openly criticizing me on AJB in your last posts.
Remember, I was always backing you up in public. When I had to say something critical to you, I did it with private messages, between us.
In my opinion, that's how friends are treating each other.
I am not happy.
Best wishes
So my point was and still is, that if friends criticize each other, this can be done in private and not in public.
I have always backed Joshua up here on the board, I never criticized him in public because I think that he's a good man and that his life was rough and tough enough.
He feels that this was insulting and an attempt top stop him voicing his opinion.
He's wrong.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
To the person who was trying to silence my opinion outside this arena and then asked me not to mention his name I will stand by my word not to mention names.
N24 you are being played. The method is simple. Gather as many people who have said something, anything, which is seen as an agreement then try to build a colitition to further a viewpoint which is nothing but corrosive and incapable of any form of diverse thought.…..
I am unsure for now of the intention of bringing up of my pointing out that I have been a political prisoner, a prisoner who was held only because I believed in people having the right to vote and that vote to be respected. Try it, I don’t think many could endure being beaten and tortured and taken out for mock execution with a gun to their head and even worse things for there family. I am unsure if this is an attack and only because I am unsure that I hold my temper. Please go through this experience and have the mental and physical scars and tell me if you then value a vote and that votes should be respecvted. You will then perhaps begin in some small way to understand why my belief can not be silenced. Thank fully you in Europe know nothing of this (yet) but the first step comes when you allow your votes to be undermined and called racists or fools or other things simply for exersising your vote. Interestingly enough I am away from work ill for this past week because of some injuries from that time. They are a not nice reminder of of the importance of free votes, and I can just look in the mirrore every time i need to be reminded at other times.
I ask every one here who has interest to go through my posts and see what I have said. I have already pointed out that the Brexit is the fault of the politicians of the UK. I have also pointed out many other things, including the decision was to leave. I look with great interest at the attempt to misinterpret things in order to further an agenda which is built only upon propaganda of its own. As we all know by know written words that fall on blind eyes are worthless. The main point to remember is that to dare to disagree makes me an enemy. This is indeed the stumbling block and the reason this debate will never advance beyond the trenches. The only positive is that it exposes the real extremists in this debate.
Some of us here must remember going forward that to debate with those who are not mature or mentally capable enough to accept the concept that people have different opinions means there is no point to their ‘arguments’ other than to argue for arguments sake.
But then again who am I? I am just a fool who does not walk the same path as the policially righteous.
Thank you all.
If you are referring to my post number 780, I was merely expressing that due to your experiences in your home country you have a unique insight on this debate on this forum.
To the person who was trying to silence my opinion outside this arena and then asked me not to mention his name I will stand by my word not to mention names.
And before any legends are made, this is what I did pm to Joshua:
Hello Joshua,
I am certainly glad that you are back on AJB.
What I don't like is how you are openly criticizing me on AJB in your last posts.
Remember, I was always backing you up in public. When I had to say something critical to you, I did it with private messages, between us.
In my opinion, that's how friends are treating each other.
I am not happy.
Best wishes
So my point was and still is, that if friends criticize each other, this can be done in private and not in public.
I have always backed Joshua up here on the board, I never criticized him in public because I think that he's a good man and that his life was rough and tough enough.
He feels that this was insulting and an attempt top stop him voicing his opinion.
He's wrong.
Higgins, you and the EU have so much in common, you too attempt to silence those who criticise you in public ) )
*that's a joke by the way Higgins old friend.
I have to agree with Higgins here. It's the UK politicians who have caused this situation, not the EU ones.
This is without doubt. It's been a catalogue of errors. I'm just waiting for the Queen to dissolve parliament!
Bad decision number 1: instigating a referendum without any kind of plan whatsoever for a leave vote winning.
Bad decision 2: May holding a general election when the country has just announced by the referendum its totally split, and throwing away its working majority.
Bad decision 3: not immediately creating a cross party team to negotiate the withdrawal agreement, overseen and approved by the government.
Bad decision 4: May heading negotiations.
Fooking Awful decision 4: mps being allowed to wrestle power from the government.
Bad decision 5: May not keeping the ERG a bit closer and involving them to create more harmony in the tories.
And on and on and on.
I don't know what an ERG is, but other than that I agree.
European Research Group.
A faction within the Conservative party of about 80 members.
The chairman of the group is Jacob Rees Mogg who is actually a very intelligent and capable politician, I've never seen him flustered, he is far too hard brexit based but has many valid arguments extending beyond the EU. https://youtu.be/I4w7W-rduZ8
Joshua is a Democrat, as am I. -{ enough said.
I'm not playing at Semantics, whoever gets the
Most votes in a free and fair election Wins ! ... it
Really is that simple.
I too have received a few private messages from
Like minded people, who don't want to post in the
Thread, as it can get quite boisterous. Still it's nice
At times to know I'm not a lone voice. )
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
I appreciate that our last posts have crossed, CC.
That's it for the personal stuff.
It wasn't personal Barbel, that's why I marked it as a joke, I didn't see your warning and I assure you I'd always take a personal gripe to pms as I always have done. -{
Joshua is a Democrat, as am I. -{ enough said.
I'm not playing at Semantics, whoever gets the
Most votes in a free and fair election Wins ! ... it
Really is that simple.
I too have received a few private messages from
Like minded people, who don't want to post in the
Thread, as it can get quite boisterous. Still it's nice
At times to know I'm not a lone voice. )
I think you have pretty much most of the voting public with you, even the old Lords in the houses of Lords have been complaining about the brexit process becoming democratically and constitutionally bankrupt, they are mostly remainers )
I appreciate that our last posts have crossed, CC.
That's it for the personal stuff.
It wasn't personal Barbel, that's why I marked it as a joke, I didn't see your warning and I assure you I'd always take a personal gripe to pms as I always have done. -{
I know! My comment wasn't directed at you, it was meant to explain why I was letting that one go by. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Higgins point B is not particularly valid, as we had promises of utter economic and societal devastation should we vote to leave the EU.those warnings appear not to have influenced the voters.
It‘s not blue with gold stars, but I invite everybody to check the leaflet themselfs.
I fail to find promises „of utter economic and societal devastation,“ so I insist that I have a valid point.
Higgins - to my knowledge, no one here has said that the promise of economic devastation was an EU tactic? I'm fairly sure that leave voters will firmly point the finger at our very own politicians here (George Osborne springs immediately to mind for one) regarding this claim - with them saying that it would pretty much happen straight after any leave vote was declared.
I would therefore claim you are barking up the wrong tree with this & it most certainly isn't directed at the EU directly.
I appreciate that our last posts have crossed, CC.
That's it for the personal stuff.
It wasn't personal Barbel, that's why I marked it as a joke, I didn't see your warning and I assure you I'd always take a personal gripe to pms as I always have done. -{
I know! My comment wasn't directed at you, it was meant to explain why I was letting that one go by. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
{[]
I'd take being called a skirt wearing man personally too. :007)
The MPs are now discussing revoking article 50 !
So this circus will continue for ages )
Nothing wrong with wearing a skirt, ..... especially with
Legs like mine ;%
I think you're of the same opinion as myself TP that Brexit is effectively dead now. They can discuss this till the cows come home, but anything they do from now on is a pure token gesture or lip service.
The next voting opportunity the public get could well prove to be very much a 'popcorn' event & I think the traditional 2 party politics that we've known for so long here may well get a very big shock
"I most certainly hope so " to quote Bond
Yes Brexit is dead, it has ceased to be. Killed by
The politicians who NEVER wanted it. I too hope the
Two main parties pay a high price at the elections.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Comments
Not a fact, Higgins.
I am sure that more than 50% of the voters just put it down as evil EU propaganda ( wasnt the info paper blue with golden stars at the front?)
I think, my point is valid, because it only counts, what is written on the paper.
That was the vote, nothing else - and that brings me back to my point, that the referendum was amateurishly initiated, prepared and executed. It was a total joke!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Totally agree - but again it stops when opposing views are labeled as undemocratic, treasonist and worse
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Ah, forgot the men in skirts
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Which should also be fun
And promises of millions of pounds for the NHS we're put down as fanciful.
So the referendum should have had a 3 line choice?
Leave with a deal,
Leave without a deal
Remain.
I think leave would still have won.
To me there is another important issue to come out of Brexit, why did we get here in the first place? I don't believe the EU is blameless, Cameron went to renogatiate the uks position, fully aware of the growing anti EU establishment feeling's in the UK, and for that matter accross Europe, IF the EU had implemented some form of reform to be seen as listening to the distant bells of disharmony perhaps the brexit vote might have been different, and the EU could have been seen by many as a working cooperative that evolves more. I do think a mix of complacency and arrogance were involved on all sides. Further more after the recent March in London by the remainers the EU stated that it would be undemocratic to ignore those million ish voices as voices of Europeans, how is it then democratic to ignore the many millions of voices that scream out for change, not only in the UK but accross the other member states?
It‘s not blue with gold stars, but I invite everybody to check the leaflet themselfs.
I fail to find promises „of utter economic and societal devastation,“ so I insist that I have a valid point.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/525022/20160523_Leaflet_EASY_READ_FINAL_VERSION.pdf
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I hope that's never!
And rightly so
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Cameron wanted more individual benefits for the UK after decades of special rebates and benefits * because the UK constantly threatened the EU with a referendum to leave.
Cameron wanted special voting powers and so on, the interest in reforming the EU ( and that within months) was not really on his agenda.
And, sorry, old friend, I must repeat:
The UK could have exited long time ago, but the parliament and in particular the Tories could not and still can‘t agree on how to leave the EU.
Making the EU responsible for that and calling them undemocratic because the will of people is not executed falls short. Blame the UK politicians, please
* known EU-wide as cherrypicking
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
But that was not on the ballot paper - and that is my point.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
N24 you are being played. The method is simple. Gather as many people who have said something, anything, which is seen as an agreement then try to build a coalition to further a viewpoint which is nothing but corrosive and incapable of any form of diverse thought.…..
I am unsure for now of the intention of bringing up of my pointing out that I have been a political prisoner, a prisoner who was held only because I believed in people having the right to vote and that vote to be respected. Try it, I don’t think many could endure being beaten and tortured and taken out for mock execution with a gun to their head and even worse things for their family. I am unsure if this is an attack and only because I am unsure that I hold my temper. Please go through this experience and have the mental and physical scars and tell me if you then value a vote and that votes should be respected. You will then perhaps begin in some small way to understand why my belief cannot be silenced. Thankfully you in Europe know nothing of this (yet) but the first step comes when you allow your votes to be undermined and called racists or fools or other things simply for exercising your vote. Interestingly enough I am away from work ill for this past week because of some injuries from that time. They are a not nice reminder of of the importance of free votes, and I can just look in the mirror every time I need to be reminded at other times.
I ask every one here who has interest to go through my posts and see what I have said. I have already pointed out that the Brexit is the fault of the politicians of the UK. I have also pointed out many other things, including the decision was to leave. I look with great interest at the attempt to misinterpret things in order to further an agenda which is built only upon propaganda of its own. As we all know by know written words that fall on blind eyes are worthless. The main point to remember is that to dare to disagree makes me an enemy. This is indeed the stumbling block and the reason this debate will never advance beyond the trenches. The only positive is that it exposes the real extremists in this debate.
Some of us here must remember going forward that to debate with those who are not mature or mentally capable enough to accept the concept that people have different opinions means there is no point to their ‘arguments’ other than to argue for arguments sake.
But then again who am I? I am just a fool who does not walk the same path as the policially righteous.
Thank you all.
I am pretty sure the Scottish independence question will once again be asked though.
And before any legends are made, this is what I did pm to Joshua:
Hello Joshua,
I am certainly glad that you are back on AJB.
What I don't like is how you are openly criticizing me on AJB in your last posts.
Remember, I was always backing you up in public. When I had to say something critical to you, I did it with private messages, between us.
In my opinion, that's how friends are treating each other.
I am not happy.
Best wishes
So my point was and still is, that if friends criticize each other, this can be done in private and not in public.
I have always backed Joshua up here on the board, I never criticized him in public because I think that he's a good man and that his life was rough and tough enough.
He feels that this was insulting and an attempt top stop him voicing his opinion.
He's wrong.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
If you are referring to my post number 780, I was merely expressing that due to your experiences in your home country you have a unique insight on this debate on this forum.
Higgins, you and the EU have so much in common, you too attempt to silence those who criticise you in public
*that's a joke by the way Higgins old friend.
That's it for the personal stuff.
European Research Group.
A faction within the Conservative party of about 80 members.
The chairman of the group is Jacob Rees Mogg who is actually a very intelligent and capable politician, I've never seen him flustered, he is far too hard brexit based but has many valid arguments extending beyond the EU.
https://youtu.be/I4w7W-rduZ8
I'm not playing at Semantics, whoever gets the
Most votes in a free and fair election Wins ! ... it
Really is that simple.
I too have received a few private messages from
Like minded people, who don't want to post in the
Thread, as it can get quite boisterous. Still it's nice
At times to know I'm not a lone voice.
It wasn't personal Barbel, that's why I marked it as a joke, I didn't see your warning and I assure you I'd always take a personal gripe to pms as I always have done. -{
I know! My comment wasn't directed at you, it was meant to explain why I was letting that one go by. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Higgins - to my knowledge, no one here has said that the promise of economic devastation was an EU tactic? I'm fairly sure that leave voters will firmly point the finger at our very own politicians here (George Osborne springs immediately to mind for one) regarding this claim - with them saying that it would pretty much happen straight after any leave vote was declared.
I would therefore claim you are barking up the wrong tree with this & it most certainly isn't directed at the EU directly.
I'd take being called a skirt wearing man personally too. :007)
So this circus will continue for ages
Nothing wrong with wearing a skirt, ..... especially with
Legs like mine ;%
I think you're of the same opinion as myself TP that Brexit is effectively dead now. They can discuss this till the cows come home, but anything they do from now on is a pure token gesture or lip service.
The next voting opportunity the public get could well prove to be very much a 'popcorn' event & I think the traditional 2 party politics that we've known for so long here may well get a very big shock
Yes Brexit is dead, it has ceased to be. Killed by
The politicians who NEVER wanted it. I too hope the
Two main parties pay a high price at the elections.