M's role steadily increasing
GoldenEye85
Posts: 278MI6 Agent
Did anyone like Judi Dench as M and where do you rank her in this role?
Growing up with the Brosnan era of James Bond, which includes Dench, I tend to like her role more (I respect Lee's and his replacement though), I haven't seen Spectre so I can't say how I feel about the new M beyond his brief appearance as M at the end of Skyfall.
But here is what I like about Judi as M:
We see her put Bond in his place in GoldenEye "I think you're a sexist, misogynist dinosaur - a relic of the Cold War". Definitely making a bold entrance being the first time in one of the movies and the first Bond in six years, at the time.
In Tomorrow Never Dies, I think this was their attempt at letting M visually see what Bond does, like in the pre-title scene. But in the rest of the movie she seems to fall into place of her predecessors.
The World is Not Enough is the first time any M gets as involved in the plot as she does. Knowing the victim of the attack at MI6 from off screen relations, to being directly involved with the decision with the "Best course of action" for Elektra's kidnapping and being captured.
Die Another Day she kind of slips backward, except being in South Korea during the end of the movie.
There is a big boost for her role once Daniel Craig takes over the Bond role.
What do you think?
Growing up with the Brosnan era of James Bond, which includes Dench, I tend to like her role more (I respect Lee's and his replacement though), I haven't seen Spectre so I can't say how I feel about the new M beyond his brief appearance as M at the end of Skyfall.
But here is what I like about Judi as M:
We see her put Bond in his place in GoldenEye "I think you're a sexist, misogynist dinosaur - a relic of the Cold War". Definitely making a bold entrance being the first time in one of the movies and the first Bond in six years, at the time.
In Tomorrow Never Dies, I think this was their attempt at letting M visually see what Bond does, like in the pre-title scene. But in the rest of the movie she seems to fall into place of her predecessors.
The World is Not Enough is the first time any M gets as involved in the plot as she does. Knowing the victim of the attack at MI6 from off screen relations, to being directly involved with the decision with the "Best course of action" for Elektra's kidnapping and being captured.
Die Another Day she kind of slips backward, except being in South Korea during the end of the movie.
There is a big boost for her role once Daniel Craig takes over the Bond role.
What do you think?
1, GE 2, CR 3, SF 4, TWINE 5, Spectre 6, TMWTGG 7, DAD 8, LALD 9, AVTAK 10, LTK 11, Octopussy 12, Moonraker 13, TLD 14, GF 15, QOS 16, Tomorrow 17, FYEO 18. TSWLM Not seen much: Dr. No, Russia, Thunderball, Twice, Majesty.
1: Brosnan 2: Craig 3: Moore 4: Dalton 5: Connery and 6: Lazenby
1: Brosnan 2: Craig 3: Moore 4: Dalton 5: Connery and 6: Lazenby
Comments
I didn't like the team aspect of SP, but I really like Fiennes as M. I don't mind him with the C finale because Bond has no relationship with C in the film. It makes more sense for M to take care of it since it was something M is dealing with for the entire film.
and given some of the stories we read in the news about what covert ops have gotten up to, I'd hope management would know what the field agents are doing (this is acknowledged in-story with Bond's actions repeatedly resulting in negative headlines)
in the other real world, i.e. filmmakers with budgets to allocate, Judi Dench was a big star when they hired her, so they've made use of her (to draw in audiences who might otherwise not care about Brosnan or Craig or these sorts of movies) ... if they'd hired another character actor like Bernard Lee, I'm sure the part would have remained smaller
The Bernard Lee/Connery relationship to me perfectly embodies the relationship between M and Bond in the Fleming novels. Bond is his best agent, and he's more than willing to stand up for him- as in TB when the Captain disagrees that Derval is dead. M straightens him out in Bond's favor. He's also not above putting Bond in his place as in the Col Smithers scene in GF. Respect. It's simple moments throughout the Connery films like those, and M doesn't have to be in every other scene to establish his character. That type of respect between the 2 characters is what's missing in many of the later films.
All the M's in the past seemed to be head of the British secret service, or MI6 if you will. Since the MI6 building got blown up and has moved to the new location at the end of Skyfall, it's like Ralph's M is "just" the head of the department for Double O's.
I'm not sure if he's still considered "the" head of the entire British secret service like the older M's were?
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Mallory's position is still the same as Mansfield's. They're simply in a new building. The destruction of the old MI6 building would not have meant a restructuring of MI6.
First off, I see it that Dame Judi played 2 different M's.
In the Brosnan era she was Barbara Mawdsley* (M-Mawd) who was new in the job and people were whispering about her attitude and approach behind her back. - And accidentally in Tanner's case in Goldeneye, (Michael Kitchen) to her face! However she proved her worth and became very successful in that position. This is shown in her growing respect of Bond. - She also holds her own against Falco in DAD admirably.
*For those who don't know (if that's applicable in here!) not canon, taken from one of the books.
In the Craig era, she has been Olivia Mansfield (M-Mansf) - a veteran who has been in the job too long. Not established this way in CR-06, but written as a tragic figure from QoS onwards. - The character was tailored to the story line to become a liability and make mistakes, and ignoring advice from all around her. Skyfall was deliberately written to facilitate the downfall of the character and give Dame Judi some damned good scenes to work with as a last hurrah. Probably a working Thank You from the House of Eon for her great work for almost 20 years of Bond.
The producers have been quite clever here. Dame Judi was in Shakespeare in Love and Mrs Brown between TND and TWINE. Then she did The Chronicles Of Riddick, Mrs Henderson Presents and Notes On A Scandal between DAD and CR-06. It only makes sense (besides establishing a new Bond) that EON "exploded" the M character function based on the international attention the actress gained and sustained in these roles.
Add to that, Sam Mendes is a theatre director as well as a film one. Skyfall and Spectre both have very moody and theatrical moments in them that are more fitting to the stage than film. They all knew there would be a limited window of opportunity, so created a bridge to another high profile actor they can continue to use in that vein as a new M. Hence Ralph Fiennes as the latest M, and just as The Harry Potter machine was coming to a conclusion too. Its no coincidence this latest M (M-Malry) can be as dangerous as Bond himself, deliberately done to expand story opportunities, and create character tension, as per their scene at the start of SP.
Having said all that, as much as I admire the moving the furniture to make narrative room - I too am disappointed that the M character seems to Micro manage Bond. The worst examples are in QoS, where M-Mansf seems to follow Bond about wherever his latest disaster takes place. I wanted to think they were trying to correct this impression in SP, since there they gave M-Mallry his own little crisis to deal with, separate from what Bond is was doing for the most part. - Which then spoilt with the last quarter of the film with "Team MI6" which felt terribly contrived. It doesn't help that it also brings into question the value of the Tanner character, who is supposed to keep a more hands on eye on the 00 section. (To the best of my knowledge.) Compared to the other actors like Naomi Harris or Ben Whishaw, Rory Kinnear has had next to nothing to do.
Whichever direction they choose to go in with the next film, the days of the briefly seen scenes of the short tempered Admiral and his unconventional star operative is well and truly over. Its odd to think that this (unintentionally) could be the long term legacy of Dame Judi's mirror image turns as M-Mawd and M-Mansf!
Yes however, I did almost get the impression that Mallory was responsible for just the Double-O programme only. C tried to close down the Double- O programme in SP, and claimed Mallory would be without a job because of it. As if MI6 doesn't have other operatives or departments that would still keep Mallory employed. (I do get that the Double-O programme is arguably his most important department, but still...) It is further suggested near the climax when Mallory identifies himself as: "Mallory - Double O section"... It's just a bit confusing and questionable.
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Thanks for the compliment, and the added info Barbel! I knew about Dame Judi's middle name, but not Mansfield Smith-Cumming.
I enjoy Judi Dench, because she's an excellent actor but also because I grew up with her as M during the Brosnan era. I think her performance in TWINE is exceptional because her missteps are played correctly - as opposed to her missteps in SF where she just shouldn't be there and she's as she says "f'd it up".
She's good in the Brosnan films because he is an elder agent, but I don't enjoy her as much in Craig's films. She has to play the role as more of a guardian - and I find it slightly annoying.
I was excited at the end of SF that Finnes' M might be more removed - but was quickly let down by even more full on involvement in SP.
"Better make that two."
I really liked Dench as M, particularly her role in the first three Brosnan films. She was a nice fit for a character like M - wheras Lee and Brown were more like bosses that Bond could occasionally get along with, Dench played an M that was the complete opposite of Bond. She was strict, and she showed how much power she had and could use, especially in TND.
I don't like how she does seem to micro manage only 007 in DAD, CR and QoS, because she goes out of the office to serve no real purpose. She doesn't need to be out of London. Wheras it makes sense in TWINE and SF, it's not needed in the other films. However, I do feel it is necessary for Fiennes' M to be so integral to he plot in SP.
But, I will say, I just don't think M requires all that much screen time. Fiennes is going to be great as M, but keep his activity to a minimum. Keep him in meetings/briefings/behind a desk and only in a couple of scenes. Look back on the novels and notice how involved he is in each of Bond's adventures.
Agree.
That's the issue with casting big-names in M's role is that they have to use them. I hope that they've got some restraint and only use him in more of a retirement/consistent work/cameo manner for the next 25 years
"Better make that two."
Would he really be out in the field getting his hands dirty or would he be directing it from the safe house etc sending more agents out.
Regardless I guess even more questionable is what is Moneypenny and Q doing there? Specifically Moneypenny!!
It feels like the whole department only employs one agent and this is on home turf too.
How big is Fiennes as an actor? I find that with big names, producers tend to milk them for as much screentime as they can. I've a feeling we'll see M out in the field a lot, if this is the case.
" I don't listen to hip hop!"
Fiennes is probably on the same level as Dench, and seeing how they used Fiennes in SP, I imagine his role is going to be expanded on in the future.
why would M relocate his desk and files, along with Moneypenny and her outer office, and Q's r&d lab and all his assistants, to the desert in Egypt on the off-chance Bond may have something to report?
there ought to be some fanfic to explain what that was all about
what Fleming stories had big M content? maybe they could use those if they need to give Fiennes more screentime
biggest one I can think of is Moonraker, M invites Bond to Blades for dinner and cards, its about a third of the book ... couldn't imagine either Brosnan or Craig feeling comfortable out for an evening with Dench's M ... even with Fiennes, the awkwardness of a night out with the boss could make for a bit of fun for us in the audience
For Your Eyes Only is really about M's personal relationship to the deceased, and this aspect was moved to the World is Not Enough rather than the FYEO film ... i.e., it has already been used
Thunderball has a lot about M's health/wellness kick ... not really used in the film, but the whole "wellness" industry is more trendy than ever, might be a good twist for the new M to have a weakness for new-age medicine and such, then could be used to open up the larger plot of a film
in OHMSS Bond has Christmas dinner at M's house even though M's not really into that sort of thing, his servants insist
Colonel Sun of course we see more of M's house then he's kidnapped ... basically used for the last half of the World is Not Enough
otherwise, Fleming's M just says outrageously reactionary stuff, makes Bond seem hip and modern in comparison, Dench was actually good at these kind of outbursts
1) To make Bond look less sexist, less his own man, which can look quite arrogant
2) Neither Brosnan nor Craig turned out to be able to quite carry a film the way Connery or even Moore could. Brozzer is a very good B-movie actor, Craig is a character actor who, like Hugh Grant, may be very good but needs to be part of an ensemble, by himself he can fall a bit flat.
3) Forgotten the third!
But Dench became to Bond like Elizabeth I, played by Flora Robson or Bette Davis, was to the Errol Flynn leading man in films like The Sea Hawk. She tolerates his excesses as he gets results but has to rein him in at times.
I thought Dench was written inconsistently.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
I agree that it diminishes Bond when you have actors like Dench and Fiennes on screen so much. Craig couldn't compete with him since he doesn't have enough screen presence, though I wouldn't call him a character actor as Napoleon Plural does. He just doesn't have the lead power that Connery has. Connery would have had no problem competing with Dench or Fiennes.