I'm cynical about America's youth, esp. watching those random interviews on YouTube in the mall, beach, etc., asking teenagers questions like, "Do you think the independence we won from the Japanese in 1776 was a decisive victory?" When my son was in high school, he had a classmate named Fidel Castro and he mentioned in class something about that novelty, then the popular girl asked, "Who's Fidel Castro?"
Let's not get too down on ourselves, Supes. Last year I was in England and I mentioned to an ENGLISH woman about the "Keep Calm and Carry On" signs during the Blitz. She was surprised to find out there really IS an historical basis to what has now become pop culture kitsch. Ignorance of history is perhaps universal. . .
My sister was an exchange student in the late 1980's. She asked her high school history teachers about the US Secretary of State, but he had no idea who was holding that position. I think the older generations often worry about the lack of knowledge about history among the young, but to be honest I think ignorance about history is worst in America. I remember my class discussing members of our current government and everyone knew the names of at least four or five. The teachers knew the names of everyone.
superadoRegent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
I'm cynical about America's youth, esp. watching those random interviews on YouTube in the mall, beach, etc., asking teenagers questions like, "Do you think the independence we won from the Japanese in 1776 was a decisive victory?" When my son was in high school, he had a classmate named Fidel Castro and he mentioned in class something about that novelty, then the popular girl asked, "Who's Fidel Castro?"
Let's not get too down on ourselves, Supes. Last year I was in England and I mentioned to an ENGLISH woman about the "Keep Calm and Carry On" signs during the Blitz. She was surprised to find out there really IS an historical basis to what has now become pop culture kitsch. Ignorance of history is perhaps universal. . .
Hahaha, I bet she was surprised it wasn’t all started by Simon Cowell!
My sister was an exchange student in the late 1980's. She asked her high school history teachers about the US Secretary of State, but he had no idea who was holding that position. I think the older generations often worry about the lack of knowledge about history among the young, but to be honest I think ignorance about history is worst in America. I remember my class discussing members of our current government and everyone knew the names of at least four or five. The teachers knew the names of everyone.
It’s a painful pill to swallow, but national pride keeps me from admitting it! I agree that edumacation is important...
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
It worries me sometimes that so many voters in the most powerful nation on earth know so little about the world around them. The British Empire was far from perfect (beginning with the whole concept..), but I suspect most British citizens could place Japan on a map or name the German Kaiser.
Since I came to England I have met some people who think Africa is a country! I think these people would be able to say the names of all the reality shows on television!
I'm cynical about America's youth, esp. watching those random interviews on YouTube in the mall, beach, etc., asking teenagers questions like, "Do you think the independence we won from the Japanese in 1776 was a decisive victory?" When my son was in high school, he had a classmate named Fidel Castro and he mentioned in class something about that novelty, then the popular girl asked, "Who's Fidel Castro?"
Let's not get too down on ourselves, Supes. Last year I was in England and I mentioned to an ENGLISH woman about the "Keep Calm and Carry On" signs during the Blitz. She was surprised to find out there really IS an historical basis to what has now become pop culture kitsch. Ignorance of history is perhaps universal. . .
As a historian, I can affirm that it (regrettably) certainly is.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
And these comments I think is why any films or television shows that are about real events in history must be accurate. Put Japanese soldiers at Dunkirk and enough people who do not know the history will think this is true and then this eventually becomes accepted as the truth.
I think the makers of films which are about history and real events have the obligation to make sure this does not happen by making every event as it happened. If a film was about the Battle of Agincourt then I would not expect to see black men or Asian men in it. Not about offence but about truth. I would not expect to see white slaves on the slave ships from Africa to America or the Caribbean for the same reason. That is why I don't expect to see black British soldiers at Dunkirk.
Since coming to England I tried to learn about the country. I am sometimes surprised to hear that some English people of their own country do not know where cities are or have never heard of some of the counties!
Well, I took my 88-year-old Dad to see it. He was too young for the actual Dunkirk, but had he taken part in it, I don't suppose it would have been as harrowing as this film.
I was all set to take my mum to see this at the BFI Imax! We took her to see Spectre there, and she enjoyed it. If I'd taken her to see this, someone might have reported me to Social Services! And what's more - they'd have had a point!
Sheer bloody trauma all the way through.
The Germans are referred to as 'the Enemy'. Look, I enjoy engaging in online banter with Higgins and Loeffs as much as anyone, but there's no need to rewrite the past.
As Harry Styles is in the film, we had a bunch of One Direction fans in the audience, who started singing One Direction songs every time he appeared; oddly this wasn't as annoying as it sounds. However, as we trooped out at the end of the film, an argument started between them as to who the 'enemy' referred to in the opening blurb was. Some thought it was the North Koreans, others the Russians. 'No you mong!' said one. 'The Russians were on our side in the war!' 'You're the mong, mongface!' retorted the other. 'The Russians didn't come in on our side until June 1941 when Hitler decided to invade with a view to securing access to Russian oil fields. Until then, they were part of the non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany under Molotov and von Ribbentrop... anyhow, Russia had only advanced as far as Eastern Poland under the agreement and its bombers wouldn't have had sufficient fuel to reach northern France, plus they had a very patchy record. Harry Styles looked cuter with long hair...'
I don't know, I just don't understand kids today.
As if the experience of Dunkirk wasn't enough, director Christopher Nolan hires a German composer to increase the torment for our boys. I don't know about Nolan directing Bond, if he did I reckon he'd be playing the Bond theme every time the villain appears, it's inappropriate. Zimmer tortures our lads with a whining, eerie, abrasive soundtrack: 'For you, Englander, the score is over!' It's not going on my iPod, I can't see Zimmer getting anywhere in the business.
To be honest, the trailers all by themselves seemed harrowing, with Churchill popping up again, this time played by Gary Oldman in an upcoming movie where you half expect the daleks to come crashing through the scenery. No wonder actor Robert Hardy popped his clogs last week, he must have despaired of ever finding any work again.
Then Branagh appears in a trailor for the upcoming Murder on the Orient Express in which the actors are invited to wax lyrical about how great the film is going to be. As he is also in Dunkirk it muddies the waters a bit, and no wonder his character stays on at the end 'for the French' seeing as he is playing the Great French Detective, second only to Inspector Clouseau...
We got a taxi back, and the cabbie started banging on about the war, 'cabsplaining' really. Talked about how all the terrible things the Germans did in the war, it does seem post-Brexit our black cab drivers have become more xenophobic, there's no call for it really.
Napoleon Plural thankyou for this. I do not like to visit the cinema but was thinking to make the exeption for this film. To now know that the fans of the one direction band would be there to spoil it by singing means I will wait to buy the dvd instead.
I'm cynical about America's youth, esp. watching those random interviews on YouTube in the mall, beach, etc., asking teenagers questions like, "Do you think the independence we won from the Japanese in 1776 was a decisive victory?" When my son was in high school, he had a classmate named Fidel Castro and he mentioned in class something about that novelty, then the popular girl asked, "Who's Fidel Castro?"
Let's not get too down on ourselves, Supes. Last year I was in England and I mentioned to an ENGLISH woman about the "Keep Calm and Carry On" signs during the Blitz. She was surprised to find out there really IS an historical basis to what has now become pop culture kitsch. Ignorance of history is perhaps universal. . .
It's not just Americans and English, alas. I was in Cuba a few years ago and while in Havana a young Canadian asked who the guy was on all the t-shirts. "Che Guevara" came the almost universal reply. "Who's he?" she asked. And, just to make it even better, she was a school teacher!
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
Well, I took my 88-year-old Dad to see it. He was too young for the actual Dunkirk, but had he taken part in it, I don't suppose it would have been as harrowing as this film.
I was all set to take my mum to see this at the BFI Imax! We took her to see Spectre there, and she enjoyed it. If I'd taken her to see this, someone might have reported me to Social Services! And what's more - they'd have had a point!
Sheer bloody trauma all the way through.
The Germans are referred to as 'the Enemy'. Look, I enjoy engaging in online banter with Higgins and Loeffs as much as anyone, but there's no need to rewrite the past.
As Harry Styles is in the film, we had a bunch of One Direction fans in the audience, who started singing One Direction songs every time he appeared; oddly this wasn't as annoying as it sounds. However, as we trooped out at the end of the film, an argument started between them as to who the 'enemy' referred to in the opening blurb was. Some thought it was the North Koreans, others the Russians. 'No you mong!' said one. 'The Russians were on our side in the war!' 'You're the mong, mongface!' retorted the other. 'The Russians didn't come in on our side until June 1941 when Hitler decided to invade with a view to securing access to Russian oil fields. Until then, they were part of the non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany under Molotov and von Ribbentrop... anyhow, Russia had only advanced as far as Eastern Poland under the agreement and its bombers wouldn't have had sufficient fuel to reach northern France, plus they had a very patchy record. Harry Styles looked cuter with long hair...'
I don't know, I just don't understand kids today.
As if the experience of Dunkirk wasn't enough, director Christopher Nolan hires a German composer to increase the torment for our boys. I don't know about Nolan directing Bond, if he did I reckon he'd be playing the Bond theme every time the villain appears, it's inappropriate. Zimmer tortures our lads with a whining, eerie, abrasive soundtrack: 'For you, Englander, the score is over!' It's not going on my iPod, I can't see Zimmer getting anywhere in the business.
To be honest, the trailers all by themselves seemed harrowing, with Churchill popping up again, this time played by Gary Oldman in an upcoming movie where you half expect the daleks to come crashing through the scenery. No wonder actor Robert Hardy popped his clogs last week, he must have despaired of ever finding any work again.
Then Branagh appears in a trailor for the upcoming Murder on the Orient Express in which the actors are invited to wax lyrical about how great the film is going to be. As he is also in Dunkirk it muddies the waters a bit, and no wonder his character stays on at the end 'for the French' seeing as he is playing the Great French Detective, second only to Inspector Clouseau...
We got a taxi back, and the cabbie started banging on about the war, 'cabsplaining' really. Talked about how all the terrible things the Germans did in the war, it does seem post-Brexit our black cab drivers have become more xenophobic, there's no call for it really.
However, Hercule Poirot was Belgian, old chap, not French. Don't worry, it's a common mistake though.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Without doubt the best film I've seen this year... Ignoring all the stuff regarding authenticity etc. and just enjoying it (if that's the right word?) for the cinematic experience alone, it has to be a 10/10... I love the split timelines (reminds me a little of Pulp Fiction) and the way it keeps you on your toes... the relentless score, the minimal dialogue, the awesome sound design, the lack of CGI, the performances, Tom Hardy's eyes B-) ... Ken and Mark :007) ... Spitfires.... I was welling-up minutes in.
Brilliant.... but, I still can't fathom a Nolan Bond
Same with an RAF colonel who told me about his bombing runs over Germany. Any one of their stories would make a great film.
That would be a Wing Commander (Lt Col equivalent) or Group Captain ( Col equivalent) no colonel ranks in the RAF
So, sorry, my mistake - no excuse. Was a long time ago and I worked with so many officers from the different services and different countries it all gets blurred after a while. They were amazing people to work with and I had a lot of respect for their services. He would have been a Group Captain then (are they called Flight Captains now?). At least I got the Royal Army Colonel's rank right..
I am not the anti PC crowd. I am a black African. No black soldiers were with the British army at Dunkirk. This is truth, so why does it have to be said so if it is against the real history? I am not offended that no black men are in this film because they wasn't there during this time. If there were black soldiers at Dunkirk then I would have expected to see even only one or two in the film, but there weren't. I would like to see if only one Indian face in the crowd as they were at Dunkirk, but only a few. I saw on the television that they are to make the Battle of Britain film again. This too should be the correct history. There were many men from nations all over the Europe and the world who was with the RAF, but no black pilots from Africa or other places. Should I be offended when I see none? I am more offended to see real history to be turned (I don't know the word to use) to make things 'PC'!
I say this before. I wonder if those doing the writing about this are black or white? If they are black then they are ignorant of the history. If they are white they are ignorant of the history or just want to ignore the history.
I have to admit that even though I only saw the film once, if they had shown any Indian soldiers in any of the mass scenes I doubt if I would have noticed. My view point was very narrowly focused on the main characters in the scenes and not much with the crowds of extras around them. May have been the same reason he did not litter the beaches with the tons of refuse scattered all over and abandoned as it actually had been. Would have been visually more accurate but even I barely picked up on it because of my focus on the characters and the intensity of what they were experiencing. I did not really think about that until after the film...
To review the film a bit more seriously, it is very cinematic and impressive. Perhaps a bit too cinematic to be realistic looking. It's odd, had it been filmed nearer the time, 1950s, then it would have seemed more realistic but they couldn't have shown the more gruesome stuff, not just because of the ratings but because kids of the same era wouldn't want to see how brother Johnny might have died... On the other hand, some of these films can seem intrusive, almost snuff movies, and I fancy a woman director might bring a different dimension to it. Male directors seem to be saying, wow, isn't that amazing? Even when doing the 'war is hell' routine. Margaret Mitchell writes about the horrors of war in Gone With The Wind without ever making it sound like a bender that you'll repeat once the memory and hangover has worn off.
Kudos to Nolan for making it a British affair, in fact it calls to mind the very moving Olympics ceremony from a few years ago, not least because Kenneth Branagh replaced the actor Mark Rylance who had to pull out due to a family tragedy - both actors appear here.
That said, it is very moving but a tad exploitative it seemed. That's odd, because after you see an action film you don't complain: 'Huh! They just wanted to keep me on the edge of my seat!' but in a film that make you want to choke up, you can resent it if you feel you've been played. The strategy is simple: to pile on the misery quite repetitively so when something good happens, you want to weep with relief. That said, a 'normal' Hollywood film couldn't do this, as it would be too much - the fact this is based on a real event means normal judgement is suspended, you don't sit there thinking okay when is the next joke coming, this is a bit dour.
The clunky exposition sank it for me really, Branagh on the pier saying, ooh it's only 25 miles from the English coast, let's make it clear to the audience it's not far to home. There isn't much dialogue in the film and what it is, the actors struggle not to make it sound like exposition.
Some odd stuff, I mean they make it seem like the evacuation took place in just one day, well, it would be The Longest Day if so. Spitfires would have had to make it there and back over several days, it's not just a day's flying. Also, I read much of the evacuation took place at night.
As for Nolan doing Bond, he'll want a share of the profits most likely, which stopped Spielberg doing one. On the basis of this, I'll say that yes, you'd get an A-grade director who knows how to do a cinematic big budget film. On the downside, his films aren't big on laughs are they. Dunkirk has the same bad-dream claustrophobia that is characteristic of much of his films, be it the Dark Knight or Inception. We'll get another Skyfall, which will be a source of joy for some, but not for me. Also, I loathe clunky exposition.
Of course Ciaron Murphy was in many of Nolan's films, this included, and it's surprising he hasn't been floated as a new Bond. If Nolan were to take over, you'd expect him to be in with a chance, assuming he'd even want it. Of course, we now have Craig back.
You may not have seen it the text on the screen that explained the time aspect. The army story started three days before the end of the movie, the story about the civilian boats started one day before and the RAF story started an hour before the end scene. A complex timeline, but I think it works.
No problem, I suspect you're not alone.
I also don't think Dunkirk was particularely violent for a war movie, perhaps even less so than Hacksaw Ridge, Saving Private Ryan and other modern war movies.
In a way you're right of course, but it is horrible all the same. Sadistic really. All of it, and relentless. Rushing to get the wounded man on the ship - which is torpedoed and of course he has no way of saving himself. The kid who gets walloped by the downed pilot. Drownings are a particularly horrible way to go.
I should also say that movies like this used to reference the real events, and now they tend to reference other movies, like Titanic, and the scramble to get out, the queues for evacuation.
We experienced the movie differently, it seems. I felt the violence as toned down compared to other movies, and also my image of how it really was. I saw "Dunkirk" as an epic personal thriller, if that makes any sense.
Comments
Let's not get too down on ourselves, Supes. Last year I was in England and I mentioned to an ENGLISH woman about the "Keep Calm and Carry On" signs during the Blitz. She was surprised to find out there really IS an historical basis to what has now become pop culture kitsch. Ignorance of history is perhaps universal. . .
Hahaha, I bet she was surprised it wasn’t all started by Simon Cowell!
It’s a painful pill to swallow, but national pride keeps me from admitting it! I agree that edumacation is important...
As a historian, I can affirm that it (regrettably) certainly is.
The internet has taught me that there are uneducated people in developed countries beyond the US!
I think the makers of films which are about history and real events have the obligation to make sure this does not happen by making every event as it happened. If a film was about the Battle of Agincourt then I would not expect to see black men or Asian men in it. Not about offence but about truth. I would not expect to see white slaves on the slave ships from Africa to America or the Caribbean for the same reason. That is why I don't expect to see black British soldiers at Dunkirk.
Since coming to England I tried to learn about the country. I am sometimes surprised to hear that some English people of their own country do not know where cities are or have never heard of some of the counties!
I was all set to take my mum to see this at the BFI Imax! We took her to see Spectre there, and she enjoyed it. If I'd taken her to see this, someone might have reported me to Social Services! And what's more - they'd have had a point!
Sheer bloody trauma all the way through.
The Germans are referred to as 'the Enemy'. Look, I enjoy engaging in online banter with Higgins and Loeffs as much as anyone, but there's no need to rewrite the past.
As Harry Styles is in the film, we had a bunch of One Direction fans in the audience, who started singing One Direction songs every time he appeared; oddly this wasn't as annoying as it sounds. However, as we trooped out at the end of the film, an argument started between them as to who the 'enemy' referred to in the opening blurb was. Some thought it was the North Koreans, others the Russians. 'No you mong!' said one. 'The Russians were on our side in the war!' 'You're the mong, mongface!' retorted the other. 'The Russians didn't come in on our side until June 1941 when Hitler decided to invade with a view to securing access to Russian oil fields. Until then, they were part of the non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany under Molotov and von Ribbentrop... anyhow, Russia had only advanced as far as Eastern Poland under the agreement and its bombers wouldn't have had sufficient fuel to reach northern France, plus they had a very patchy record. Harry Styles looked cuter with long hair...'
I don't know, I just don't understand kids today.
As if the experience of Dunkirk wasn't enough, director Christopher Nolan hires a German composer to increase the torment for our boys. I don't know about Nolan directing Bond, if he did I reckon he'd be playing the Bond theme every time the villain appears, it's inappropriate. Zimmer tortures our lads with a whining, eerie, abrasive soundtrack: 'For you, Englander, the score is over!' It's not going on my iPod, I can't see Zimmer getting anywhere in the business.
To be honest, the trailers all by themselves seemed harrowing, with Churchill popping up again, this time played by Gary Oldman in an upcoming movie where you half expect the daleks to come crashing through the scenery. No wonder actor Robert Hardy popped his clogs last week, he must have despaired of ever finding any work again.
Then Branagh appears in a trailor for the upcoming Murder on the Orient Express in which the actors are invited to wax lyrical about how great the film is going to be. As he is also in Dunkirk it muddies the waters a bit, and no wonder his character stays on at the end 'for the French' seeing as he is playing the Great French Detective, second only to Inspector Clouseau...
We got a taxi back, and the cabbie started banging on about the war, 'cabsplaining' really. Talked about how all the terrible things the Germans did in the war, it does seem post-Brexit our black cab drivers have become more xenophobic, there's no call for it really.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
It's not just Americans and English, alas. I was in Cuba a few years ago and while in Havana a young Canadian asked who the guy was on all the t-shirts. "Che Guevara" came the almost universal reply. "Who's he?" she asked. And, just to make it even better, she was a school teacher!
However, Hercule Poirot was Belgian, old chap, not French. Don't worry, it's a common mistake though.
Brilliant.... but, I still can't fathom a Nolan Bond
"I know...."
Wasn't going to let that get in the way of a joke.
BTW Joshua, I was kidding about the One Direction fans, there weren't any. I wasn't kidding about it being very harrowing however, it is traumatic.
I may post a more serious review later if you're all lucky enough.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
From Death on the Nile
Oh, sorry, old chap. Subtle humour there.
So, sorry, my mistake - no excuse. Was a long time ago and I worked with so many officers from the different services and different countries it all gets blurred after a while. They were amazing people to work with and I had a lot of respect for their services. He would have been a Group Captain then (are they called Flight Captains now?). At least I got the Royal Army Colonel's rank right..
I have to admit that even though I only saw the film once, if they had shown any Indian soldiers in any of the mass scenes I doubt if I would have noticed. My view point was very narrowly focused on the main characters in the scenes and not much with the crowds of extras around them. May have been the same reason he did not litter the beaches with the tons of refuse scattered all over and abandoned as it actually had been. Would have been visually more accurate but even I barely picked up on it because of my focus on the characters and the intensity of what they were experiencing. I did not really think about that until after the film...
Kudos to Nolan for making it a British affair, in fact it calls to mind the very moving Olympics ceremony from a few years ago, not least because Kenneth Branagh replaced the actor Mark Rylance who had to pull out due to a family tragedy - both actors appear here.
That said, it is very moving but a tad exploitative it seemed. That's odd, because after you see an action film you don't complain: 'Huh! They just wanted to keep me on the edge of my seat!' but in a film that make you want to choke up, you can resent it if you feel you've been played. The strategy is simple: to pile on the misery quite repetitively so when something good happens, you want to weep with relief. That said, a 'normal' Hollywood film couldn't do this, as it would be too much - the fact this is based on a real event means normal judgement is suspended, you don't sit there thinking okay when is the next joke coming, this is a bit dour.
The clunky exposition sank it for me really, Branagh on the pier saying, ooh it's only 25 miles from the English coast, let's make it clear to the audience it's not far to home. There isn't much dialogue in the film and what it is, the actors struggle not to make it sound like exposition.
Some odd stuff, I mean they make it seem like the evacuation took place in just one day, well, it would be The Longest Day if so. Spitfires would have had to make it there and back over several days, it's not just a day's flying. Also, I read much of the evacuation took place at night.
As for Nolan doing Bond, he'll want a share of the profits most likely, which stopped Spielberg doing one. On the basis of this, I'll say that yes, you'd get an A-grade director who knows how to do a cinematic big budget film. On the downside, his films aren't big on laughs are they. Dunkirk has the same bad-dream claustrophobia that is characteristic of much of his films, be it the Dark Knight or Inception. We'll get another Skyfall, which will be a source of joy for some, but not for me. Also, I loathe clunky exposition.
Of course Ciaron Murphy was in many of Nolan's films, this included, and it's surprising he hasn't been floated as a new Bond. If Nolan were to take over, you'd expect him to be in with a chance, assuming he'd even want it. Of course, we now have Craig back.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I also don't think Dunkirk was particularely violent for a war movie, perhaps even less so than Hacksaw Ridge, Saving Private Ryan and other modern war movies.
I should also say that movies like this used to reference the real events, and now they tend to reference other movies, like Titanic, and the scramble to get out, the queues for evacuation.
Roger Moore 1927-2017