I think the big difference in this assassination
Attempt. Is it had the potential to kill around
130 people. So more of a terrorist attack
Sanctioned by another government.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
I'm impressed with how much Higgins knows about various poisions and
nerve agents ! ...... If ever a group of AJBers are invited to an old country
mansion, and start getting bumped off. I know who'd I'd be questioning !
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
I'm inviting Higgins, TP and everyone else who wants to come to SABS - but I'm getting the drinks, OK
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,845MI6 Agent
edited March 2018
It's amazing how many people still back up the Russians even after their proven record in state-sanctioned assassination over the decades.
They're now saying that it might have been British spies that poisoned the Skripals. That is their typical utterly ridiculous response to try to deflect from their own culpability. A blind man could see that they are culpable but there is still a Fifth Column in the UK and other countries that tries to defend the indefensible when it comes to the Russians. Why????
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Investigations have revealed that the highest concentrated amount of novichok was on Skripals front door handle, a pretty indiscriminate place to put it, potentially harming many innocent people.
The facts and evidence will never fully come into the public domain such is the nature of these things, but I believe the UK services have such evidence of Russian involvement that they could confidently point the finger, I don't believe our government would go as far as to blame Russia on a whim and no intelligence. Let us also not forget the Russian state has been provoking a response for years now and in many ways, The raf routinely turn back ARMED bombers from our airspace and Russian war ships regularly impede on our waters.
Russia has just announced that 60 US embassy staff must leave the country and that the St Petersburg embassy will be closed.
Obviously, Putin is shattered by the „clear stop sign“ response that was shown him by Mrs May and her allies.
Don‘t get me wrong - I am sure that Russia is behind the attempt in Salisbury.
And I am disgusted by Putin‘s actions.
But the rush and scale that Mrs May is riding all this on is ridiculous -it‘s just a distraction.
It would have been better to investigate all this with cold blood and hard evidence instead of riding on emotions.
And the true war front against Mr. Putin is in the Internet, Social Media and so on, so we all better think twice before we criticize reputable journalists and media.
We‘ve had too many emotional political decisions recently and it seems that many politicians are trying to win elections that way because they don‘t have anything substancial to offer.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I think expelling 60 diplomats fifty years ago would have been a much harder blow to the Soviet Union than doing the same to Russia now. Back then it was much more difficult for people from the Warszawa Pact to get to the West and move around unnoticed, so embassies were far more important for espionage.
Now expelling embassy personell is much more symbolic in nature, it won't put Russian secret service years back. Perhaps some "culture attaches" with lots of knowledge about a particular country and with first rate network there there will have to work from Moscow now, but that's the extent of it.
From what I've read and screen. Russia is a gangster country, all state amenities have been shared out to Putin's friends.
Many opponents have been killed. All Putin is doing his taking his style of business abroad. Leading to two options.........
...... Do something, or Do nothing.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,754Chief of Staff
The investigation is not finished yet and Mrs May had her case made from day one.
I am sure that Russia is behind all this but there is a slim chance that the agent could have been stolen or produced by another state.
Proper investigation means to research all possible tracks and not only the most obvious one
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I think my friend Higgins dislike of Putin is only beaten by his dislike of Teresa May because of Brexet? )
To be serious. I think that Russia is indeed almost a rogue nation. The elections are not free and Putin rules with fear as his weapon. He has made fortunes from the country as also have his friends. The Russians use killing of opponents inside Russia and in other countries too as a normal practice. I think that yes evidence should be clear, but also I think we do not know much about what happens. I think that the evidence will come from the MI6 in great parts and this must remain secret to protect the people in Russia who spy for MI6. I believe the international experts were also sure that the poison came from Russia. And I also do not think that many countries would not take action without being sure themselves that the British were correct as their actions are very serious and never done without much thought for the conseqence.
I also do think that it is correct to act against this terrorism when it can affect ordinary civilians who are not the targets. To use the poison where it can kill others shows to me a disregard for civilians and other countries and intenational laws. Putin must be made to be see that he cannot act this way.
Replace "Russia" with Iraq and "Putin" with Saddam and you have exactly the same scenario.
Unfortunately, the UK back then decided to participate the invasion in Iraq based on false evidence, so this time they should be extra careful with jumping on emotions and conclusions ("we all know" "Russia has a history..." "It has been like that in the past" and so on).
But they are not!
Remember the C. Powell presentation with the trucks with MDW and how Bush and Tony damaged the UN forever!
Same words, emotions, same bullshit!
I am pretty sure that at the end of an independent investigation, Russia will be identified to be guilty, but the speed and the amount of emotions and assumptions is dodgy. It serves only one purpose - like I've said.
And no, May did not start Brexit.
And I am quite pleased how she handles the negotiations, it couldn't get better for the EU side (under the adimttedly bad circumstances for all involved countries).
I only know how Blair worked with all the emotions back then to bring the country behind him and it's exactly the same play now.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
There are clear simularities between situation and the prelude to the Iraq war. But there are differencestoo.
The neo-conservatives had a clear and obvious agenda:regime change in Iraq. I don't see any clear long-term agenda here. It might be nice to get attention away from Brexit, but No-one starts a crisis with a nuclear power just to shift media attention.
Then they had the word of some questionable Intel sources and some grainy satelite images.Now they have remains of a nerve gas known to come from the USSR.
Before the Iraq invasion some allies question ed the US alligations. Now there are no such voices in NATO. I doubt countries such as France and Germany would put their relationship with Russia in jepardy for May and Trump, do you? Russia is much more important to Europe than Iraq ever was.
I would like to know how much Intel the UK shares with their allies in this case, if any? It would be wise.
Sharing it with Russia would not be productive. They would most likely use it to close Intel sources for the West and stall the whole process.
Higgins I do very much see the similaritys to how Russia is ruled by Putin and my own country. This is not good. The man who has the iorn grip on power and will never give this power up. The fortunes he and his friends have made from the country by coruption and other things to make him the richest man in the world. How the Putin regim used fear and violence against its oppenents.
For much too long I think Russia has been testing in the west to see how far it will be allowed to go. In the crimean and other places where nothing was done and in syria also when it bombs the civilians and even perhaps uses the chemical weapons.
That any goverment should use murder in other countrys can never in my opinion be acceptable but when this happens and it is such indiscrimnate to involve not only the target but innocent civilians of that country is too far.
I have no doubt to believe that no other country would not support England if they also were not sure that Russia is to blame. Perhaps I could accept the theory of England acting in the knee jerk manner with out proof but not other countrys. They will all need evidence before they act. I think they have enough evidence to make them act against Russia.
We do not know what the intelligence services of these countrys know about such things, but I think the countrys would not just take the word of the English but take advice from there own spies and advisors before acting and only act when they are convinced of the Russian responsiblity.
To allow Russia to carry on is as it was in Hitler times. Not do do ant thing when you know it is wrong is to apease like England and France and other countrys did with the nazi threat. Russia must know that it cannot do acts of terror, and to attack people while also en dangering the civilians of an other county is to me terrorism and total disregard for other countrys.
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,754Chief of Staff
The investigation is not finished yet and Mrs May had her case made from day one.
I am sure that Russia is behind all this but there is a slim chance that the agent could have been stolen or produced by another state.
Proper investigation means to research all possible tracks and not only the most obvious one
Higgybum - if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it’s a duck...what further investigation is needed?
Russia were asked if any had been lost or stolen and they refused to answer...if they are innocent then why aren’t they trying to help...?
Higgybum - if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it’s a duck...what further investigation is needed?
Well, obviously you did not understand my previous posts.
Saddam: he walked like wmd, he quacked like wmd, and he did not have wmd
And wheren‘t you one at front of the Hillsborough desaster?
You say, that the authorities don‘t lie with the Salisbury events, the authorities lied with Hillsborough.
And for many people, it walked like a duck (football fans),it quacked like a duck (football fans) and it wasn‘t a duck. I know that you have a short memory, but was not aware that it is so short.
And even if it is a duck in the end (Putin) it must be independently and fully investigated before sanctions are placed. I was not aware, that you where of the „shoot first, ask questions later“ group.
And I am cynical now: Do you really think, that the May cabinet gives a damn about if a former russian spy gets harmed?
And don‘t reply with the potential thread to innocents -I repeat that Pollonium has the same scale, so why the outrage now?
And let me add, that the strong foot against Russia is easier when you are living on an island, it gets very complicated, when they are in your neighborhood...
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
May: - I wish the press would get off our backs about this Brexit business.
Spin doctor: - Let's give them something else to write about. What can we use?
May: - There is the poisonings in Salisbury. We don't know who did it, but it looks like it was the Russians.
Spin doctor: - Splendid! Let's pretend we have proof against the Russians and create a major crisis between the UK and the largest military power in Europe!
May: - Why didn't I think of that? And let's involve the rest of NATO too, especially the US. That Trump chaplin won't overreact and do something stupid, he's not the type.
Spin doctor: - See, now no-one will care that the Brexit negotiations are difficult.
You did write earlier that you thought May exagerated this to district from other political problems.
You did write that you don't belived he UK has solid proof that it was the Russians.
Where am I wrong?
Higgybum - if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it’s a duck...what further investigation is needed?
Well, obviously you did not understand my previous posts.
Saddam: he walked like wmd, he quacked like wmd, and he did not have wmd
And wheren‘t you one at front of the Hillsborough desaster?
You say, that the authorities don‘t lie with the Salisbury events, the authorities lied with Hillsborough.
And for many people, it walked like a duck (football fans),it quacked like a duck (football fans) and it wasn‘t a duck. I know that you have a short memory, but was not aware that it is so short.
And even if it is a duck in the end (Putin) it must be independently and fully investigated before sanctions are placed. I was not aware, that you where of the „shoot first, ask questions later“ group.
And I am cynical now: Do you really think, that the May cabinet gives a damn about if a former russian spy gets harmed?
And don‘t reply with the potential thread to innocents -I repeat that Pollonium has the same scale, so why the outrage now?
And let me add, that the strong foot against Russia is easier when you are living on an island, it gets very complicated, when they are in your neighborhood...
So you are saying every country is telling lies...? That’s a bold statement.
And for you to bring Hillsborough into this...? WTF? I’m stunned. So, according to you, all football fans deserve to be killed or (at least) treated like vermin...
Seems like Germany is also in the “shoot first, ask questions later” group...they have also expelled Russian ‘diplomats’...or perhaps the German government is happy with the ‘proof’ they have seen...?
And for you to bring Hillsborough into this...? WTF? I’m stunned. So, according to you, all football fans deserve to be killed or (at least) treated like vermin...
I have used Hillsborough to make a point:
- The "it walks like a duck" analogy is not always correct
- Instead of jumping on conclusions, one should properly investigate and then make decisions.
- The authorities are not always to be trusted
- Authorities sometimes bend facts and evidence for their own agenda
- sometimes, thinks are not like they appear to
Because of that I am surprised that you are judging without a proper investigation "because it walks like a duck".
But I am sure that you know, you just love twisting statements to ridicule people
Seems like Germany is also in the “shoot first, ask questions later” group...they have also expelled Russian ‘diplomats’...or perhaps the German government is happy with the ‘proof’ they have seen...?
The german government does not reflect the opinion of all germans. There are strong voices here, that Russia is very likely behind it, but that it must be proven independently and comprehensively
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,754Chief of Staff
And for you to bring Hillsborough into this...? WTF? I’m stunned. So, according to you, all football fans deserve to be killed or (at least) treated like vermin...
I have used Hillsborough to make a point:
- The "it walks like a duck" analogy is not always correct
- Instead of jumping on conclusions, one should properly investigate and then make decisions.
- The authorities are not always to be trusted
- Authorities sometimes bend facts and evidence for their own agenda
- sometimes, thinks are not like they appear to
Because of that I am surprised that you are judging without a proper investigation "because it walks like a duck".
But I am sure that you know, you just love twisting statements to ridicule people
Seems like Germany is also in the “shoot first, ask questions later” group...they have also expelled Russian ‘diplomats’...or perhaps the German government is happy with the ‘proof’ they have seen...?
The german government does not reflect the opinion of all germans. There are strong voices here, that Russia is very likely behind it, but that it must be proven independently and comprehensively
I haven’t ridiculed anyone...you take all the credit for that.
Re Hillsborough - it’s clear you have no idea what you are talking about and no clue as to what happened in the hours/days afterwards...your insensitivity on the subject is disgusting and does you no credit at all. 96 people (including children) were unlawfully killed there...you should be ashamed of yourself. To be clear - most British citizens knew there was something wrong with what was reported at Hillsborough, thus rendering your argument null and void.
I’m glad you think the British Government is clever enough to fool several European governments 8-)
You did write that you don't belived he UK has solid proof that it was the Russians.
Where am I wrong?
Here you are wrong
I think you may have forgotten to ad to the first part of your post what you actually wrote.
About the last part of your post:: is it more correct to say you think the British government has proof, but they should submit the proof to furter investigation and possibly a trial?
@ Sir Miles,
I really feel sorry, that you have entirely missed my point - even after I have elaborated.
I stand with everything that I have said there!
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
@ N24:
I wrote that Mrs. May exagerates the issue to distract from other political problems.
Everthing else is your simplification.
And your last sentence: No, I did not say that.
I say- and I am repeating myself here: Investigate independently and comprehensively.
And don‘t judge and take action before the investigation is over.
That should be common sense in all countries with a Justice System
That should have been very clear
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I'm not the only one to miss a point. I asked you a question several times. When you finally tried to reply you answered a question I never asked: "do spies ever get murdered"?
Let's admit we've not perfect and try again. You know - show some good will?
Comments
Apologies...I always struggle reading gibberish :v
Don’t worry, Higgybum - there aren’t ever any ‘intellectual connections’ in your posts :007)
Attempt. Is it had the potential to kill around
130 people. So more of a terrorist attack
Sanctioned by another government.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
nerve agents ! ...... If ever a group of AJBers are invited to an old country
mansion, and start getting bumped off. I know who'd I'd be questioning !
They're now saying that it might have been British spies that poisoned the Skripals. That is their typical utterly ridiculous response to try to deflect from their own culpability. A blind man could see that they are culpable but there is still a Fifth Column in the UK and other countries that tries to defend the indefensible when it comes to the Russians. Why????
The facts and evidence will never fully come into the public domain such is the nature of these things, but I believe the UK services have such evidence of Russian involvement that they could confidently point the finger, I don't believe our government would go as far as to blame Russia on a whim and no intelligence. Let us also not forget the Russian state has been provoking a response for years now and in many ways, The raf routinely turn back ARMED bombers from our airspace and Russian war ships regularly impede on our waters.
Obviously, Putin is shattered by the „clear stop sign“ response that was shown him by Mrs May and her allies.
Don‘t get me wrong - I am sure that Russia is behind the attempt in Salisbury.
And I am disgusted by Putin‘s actions.
But the rush and scale that Mrs May is riding all this on is ridiculous -it‘s just a distraction.
It would have been better to investigate all this with cold blood and hard evidence instead of riding on emotions.
And the true war front against Mr. Putin is in the Internet, Social Media and so on, so we all better think twice before we criticize reputable journalists and media.
We‘ve had too many emotional political decisions recently and it seems that many politicians are trying to win elections that way because they don‘t have anything substancial to offer.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Now expelling embassy personell is much more symbolic in nature, it won't put Russian secret service years back. Perhaps some "culture attaches" with lots of knowledge about a particular country and with first rate network there there will have to work from Moscow now, but that's the extent of it.
Many opponents have been killed. All Putin is doing his taking his style of business abroad. Leading to two options.........
...... Do something, or Do nothing.
How do you know it hasn’t been...? ?:)
‘Hard evidence’ seems to confirm it was Novichok that was used and that only Russia produces it...seems pretty clear cut, wouldn’t you say?
I am sure that Russia is behind all this but there is a slim chance that the agent could have been stolen or produced by another state.
Proper investigation means to research all possible tracks and not only the most obvious one
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
To be serious. I think that Russia is indeed almost a rogue nation. The elections are not free and Putin rules with fear as his weapon. He has made fortunes from the country as also have his friends. The Russians use killing of opponents inside Russia and in other countries too as a normal practice. I think that yes evidence should be clear, but also I think we do not know much about what happens. I think that the evidence will come from the MI6 in great parts and this must remain secret to protect the people in Russia who spy for MI6. I believe the international experts were also sure that the poison came from Russia. And I also do not think that many countries would not take action without being sure themselves that the British were correct as their actions are very serious and never done without much thought for the conseqence.
I also do think that it is correct to act against this terrorism when it can affect ordinary civilians who are not the targets. To use the poison where it can kill others shows to me a disregard for civilians and other countries and intenational laws. Putin must be made to be see that he cannot act this way.
Unfortunately, the UK back then decided to participate the invasion in Iraq based on false evidence, so this time they should be extra careful with jumping on emotions and conclusions ("we all know" "Russia has a history..." "It has been like that in the past" and so on).
But they are not!
Remember the C. Powell presentation with the trucks with MDW and how Bush and Tony damaged the UN forever!
Same words, emotions, same bullshit!
I am pretty sure that at the end of an independent investigation, Russia will be identified to be guilty, but the speed and the amount of emotions and assumptions is dodgy. It serves only one purpose - like I've said.
And no, May did not start Brexit.
And I am quite pleased how she handles the negotiations, it couldn't get better for the EU side (under the adimttedly bad circumstances for all involved countries).
I only know how Blair worked with all the emotions back then to bring the country behind him and it's exactly the same play now.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The neo-conservatives had a clear and obvious agenda:regime change in Iraq. I don't see any clear long-term agenda here. It might be nice to get attention away from Brexit, but No-one starts a crisis with a nuclear power just to shift media attention.
Then they had the word of some questionable Intel sources and some grainy satelite images.Now they have remains of a nerve gas known to come from the USSR.
Before the Iraq invasion some allies question ed the US alligations. Now there are no such voices in NATO. I doubt countries such as France and Germany would put their relationship with Russia in jepardy for May and Trump, do you? Russia is much more important to Europe than Iraq ever was.
I would like to know how much Intel the UK shares with their allies in this case, if any? It would be wise.
Sharing it with Russia would not be productive. They would most likely use it to close Intel sources for the West and stall the whole process.
For much too long I think Russia has been testing in the west to see how far it will be allowed to go. In the crimean and other places where nothing was done and in syria also when it bombs the civilians and even perhaps uses the chemical weapons.
That any goverment should use murder in other countrys can never in my opinion be acceptable but when this happens and it is such indiscrimnate to involve not only the target but innocent civilians of that country is too far.
I have no doubt to believe that no other country would not support England if they also were not sure that Russia is to blame. Perhaps I could accept the theory of England acting in the knee jerk manner with out proof but not other countrys. They will all need evidence before they act. I think they have enough evidence to make them act against Russia.
We do not know what the intelligence services of these countrys know about such things, but I think the countrys would not just take the word of the English but take advice from there own spies and advisors before acting and only act when they are convinced of the Russian responsiblity.
To allow Russia to carry on is as it was in Hitler times. Not do do ant thing when you know it is wrong is to apease like England and France and other countrys did with the nazi threat. Russia must know that it cannot do acts of terror, and to attack people while also en dangering the civilians of an other county is to me terrorism and total disregard for other countrys.
Higgybum - if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it’s a duck...what further investigation is needed?
Russia were asked if any had been lost or stolen and they refused to answer...if they are innocent then why aren’t they trying to help...?
Well, obviously you did not understand my previous posts.
Saddam: he walked like wmd, he quacked like wmd, and he did not have wmd
And wheren‘t you one at front of the Hillsborough desaster?
You say, that the authorities don‘t lie with the Salisbury events, the authorities lied with Hillsborough.
And for many people, it walked like a duck (football fans),it quacked like a duck (football fans) and it wasn‘t a duck. I know that you have a short memory, but was not aware that it is so short.
And even if it is a duck in the end (Putin) it must be independently and fully investigated before sanctions are placed. I was not aware, that you where of the „shoot first, ask questions later“ group.
And I am cynical now: Do you really think, that the May cabinet gives a damn about if a former russian spy gets harmed?
And don‘t reply with the potential thread to innocents -I repeat that Pollonium has the same scale, so why the outrage now?
And let me add, that the strong foot against Russia is easier when you are living on an island, it gets very complicated, when they are in your neighborhood...
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
May: - I wish the press would get off our backs about this Brexit business.
Spin doctor: - Let's give them something else to write about. What can we use?
May: - There is the poisonings in Salisbury. We don't know who did it, but it looks like it was the Russians.
Spin doctor: - Splendid! Let's pretend we have proof against the Russians and create a major crisis between the UK and the largest military power in Europe!
May: - Why didn't I think of that? And let's involve the rest of NATO too, especially the US. That Trump chaplin won't overreact and do something stupid, he's not the type.
Spin doctor: - See, now no-one will care that the Brexit negotiations are difficult.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
You did write that you don't belived he UK has solid proof that it was the Russians.
Where am I wrong?
That is what I wrote and not your over simplified interpretation above
Politics doesn‘t work like that
Here you are wrong
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
So you are saying every country is telling lies...? That’s a bold statement.
And for you to bring Hillsborough into this...? WTF? I’m stunned. So, according to you, all football fans deserve to be killed or (at least) treated like vermin...
Seems like Germany is also in the “shoot first, ask questions later” group...they have also expelled Russian ‘diplomats’...or perhaps the German government is happy with the ‘proof’ they have seen...?
Have I? No!
But I am sure that you know, you just love twisting statements to ridicule people
I have used Hillsborough to make a point:
- The "it walks like a duck" analogy is not always correct
- Instead of jumping on conclusions, one should properly investigate and then make decisions.
- The authorities are not always to be trusted
- Authorities sometimes bend facts and evidence for their own agenda
- sometimes, thinks are not like they appear to
Because of that I am surprised that you are judging without a proper investigation "because it walks like a duck".
But I am sure that you know, you just love twisting statements to ridicule people
The german government does not reflect the opinion of all germans. There are strong voices here, that Russia is very likely behind it, but that it must be proven independently and comprehensively
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I haven’t ridiculed anyone...you take all the credit for that.
Re Hillsborough - it’s clear you have no idea what you are talking about and no clue as to what happened in the hours/days afterwards...your insensitivity on the subject is disgusting and does you no credit at all. 96 people (including children) were unlawfully killed there...you should be ashamed of yourself. To be clear - most British citizens knew there was something wrong with what was reported at Hillsborough, thus rendering your argument null and void.
I’m glad you think the British Government is clever enough to fool several European governments 8-)
I think you may have forgotten to ad to the first part of your post what you actually wrote.
About the last part of your post:: is it more correct to say you think the British government has proof, but they should submit the proof to furter investigation and possibly a trial?
I really feel sorry, that you have entirely missed my point - even after I have elaborated.
I stand with everything that I have said there!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I wrote that Mrs. May exagerates the issue to distract from other political problems.
Everthing else is your simplification.
And your last sentence: No, I did not say that.
I say- and I am repeating myself here: Investigate independently and comprehensively.
And don‘t judge and take action before the investigation is over.
That should be common sense in all countries with a Justice System
That should have been very clear
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I'm not the only one to miss a point. I asked you a question several times. When you finally tried to reply you answered a question I never asked: "do spies ever get murdered"?
Let's admit we've not perfect and try again. You know - show some good will?