TND vs. TWINE

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  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    He's given different explanations over the years. At one point, he said it was because the scripts kept getting rewritten, so he had trouble remembering his lines. His swagger and pivots, though, are often attributed to trying to make people focus on him physically.

    Wayne, by the way, started the more staccato speech after having a lung removed in the 1960s. He just didn't always have the breath to be able to say the longer lines.
  • Dirty PunkerDirty Punker ...Your Eyes Only, darling."Posts: 2,587MI6 Agent
    Splitting hairs on this one.
    The World Is not Enough has aged much better cinematically and story wise but Tomorrow Never Dies feels more like a Bond film than a cheesy soap opera. Both are very OTT but TWINE is later Brosnan OTT while TND feels more like a Connery film with Moore era wit than anything else.

    Tomorrow Never Dies due to personal taste (and due to it being my earliest exposure to Bond.)
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  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 4,109MI6 Agent
    Shatner was a stage actor first, he performed Shakespeare at Stratford.
    That could account for some of the physicality and over-enunciating.
    Easy to forget those roots, especially when we all think of Picard as the Shakespearian starship captain.

    re Goldeneye's low budget...
    It never occurred to me that was a low budget film. Shouldn't be a problem though, filmmakers generally make more creative choices when constrained by budget. Die Another Day on the other hand looks very big budget.
    Perhaps this low budget accounts for the pattern of repeatedly introducing a set then blowing it up for twenty minutes that I see with this film? A bit like the "base under siege" episodes of Doctor Who, which I understand were done deliberately to maximize limited budget. In Goldeneye, the satellite control station in Russia is the main offender, where they introduce several major characters then explain the plot, then go on and on and on destroying that set, but several other extended sequences in the film play out similarly.
    There's plenty of other aspects of that film I do like though. The casino sequence which properly introduces BrosnanBond as well as Xenia. Also the several chunks of dialog that acknowledge critiques of the character while nonetheless revelling in the whole fantasy. Not just M's opening lines, or "boys with toys", but the passwords exchanged between Bond and the new CIA agent. Clever dialog that works on two levels and has nothing to do with budget. I could have done with even lesser budget in exchange for more clever dialog.
  • Dirty PunkerDirty Punker ...Your Eyes Only, darling."Posts: 2,587MI6 Agent
    Curious...GE looked more high budget to me than DAD.
    The ice sets are the main offenders as they seem plastickey and fake in my eyes.
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  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 4,109MI6 Agent
    good point, lots of CGI and other special effects in Die Another Day
    I just assume that stuff costs a lot of money, maybe it actually saved them some money they should have spent on more convincing sets?
    really I don't think any of these qualify as "low budget" films
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    GE looks lower budget to me, from the aforementioned elements (amateur lighting, etc.) to the use of a well-known telescope for the villain's base to the workmanlike direction and story. There's also a sparseness to a lot of scenes. But the other Brosnan efforts also suffer from some of these elements, even if the final result is overall more impressive. I'm not sure CGI is cheaper than building sets or going on location. Historically, SFX have been used to solve technical issues as well as to save money. It used to be a hallmark of low budget films, by the way, to film on location rather than in a studio, as at one time it was a lot cheaper.
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 4,109MI6 Agent
    I assume all that CGI costs a lot of money because of the endless lists of tiny little names in the credits at the end of CGI heavy films ... all those technicians have to get paid

    speaking of locations reminds me of another Doctor Who example .... the Third Doctor episodes were originally confined to Earth to save the costs of building all those alien landscapes ... and the show looks a hell of lot better all of a sudden, because Jon Pertwee is chasing The Master all around the English countryside instead of battling Cybermen in wobbly stagesets
    more location work! less CGI!
  • Dirty PunkerDirty Punker ...Your Eyes Only, darling."Posts: 2,587MI6 Agent
    Amateur lighting...*remembers Brosnan with the PPK on the yacht and him looking at the butcher*...totally low budget and not all amazing and well directed.
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  • ManxmanManxman Posts: 125MI6 Agent
    I don't particularly like any of the Brosnan films (to my mind, he's the only Bond actor who didn't get at least one classic outing) but there's no competition between these two films. The World Is Not Enough is a reasonably good Bond film: I'd rate it alongside Spectre and somewhat below Licence To Kill, which I regard as the least of the "great" Bond films. In contrast, Tomorrow Never Dies is one of only two Bond films I consider virtually worthless (the other being Moonraker, for completely different reasons.

    TWINE is the only Bond film in which Brosnan gets to do much acting, and he's more than up to the task, appearing genuinely disgusted with Elektra and her treachery. The film also has an interesting plot, though it's so convoluted at the beginning that it's hard to see how Bond identified Renard as the main villain.

    In contrast, TND is the closest the Bond films ever came to a generic action movie, with one-dimensional characters (Wai Lin appears to have no personality or quirks whatsoever), wooden acting (not for a moment do I believe Bond and Paris Carver were once lovers) and merely adequate action scenes. It's essentially an assemblage of Bond clichés (icy madman trying to start a world war assisted by a huge blond henchman) with little or no identity of its own. The only moments I really like are Dr Kaufman, who is genuinely disturbing, and the scene where Carver mocks Wai Lin's martial arts prowess, which makes me wonder why they didn't make the character sarcastic and politically incorrect throughout the film – that would have been genuinely interesting.

    I don't really care for Goldeneye (washed-out low-budget TV movie masquerading as a Bond film) or Die Another Day (potentially good film spoiled by ridiculous special effects and a smug, self-reverential tone) much either, but I prefer them to TND.

    The other thing that strikes me about the Brosnan films is how much I dislike Moneypenny in them. The films' dialogue largely consists of dreadful sexual double entendres, and on several occasions Moneypenny is used to explain the "jokes" (and I use the word loosely) to the thicker members of the audience. I have nothing against double entendres (the Piz Gloria scenes in OHMSS are full of them) but they need to be clever rather than resembling outtakes from a "Carry On" film.
  • Mr_OsatoMr_Osato Posts: 398MI6 Agent
    It is a tough choice for me. I do like TND and probably would watch it over TWINE. I especially like the soundtrack of Arnold. I still think it is Arnold's best. And also the plot is quite interesting, especially with the power of the media today.

    But I do think TWINE is the better movie. There is more character development, the pre-title scene is one of the very best and Electra is a fantastic villain.

    I notice in my signature I prefer TND, but the mid-range is all closely tied together and can change any time of the week :)
    OHMSS, FRWL, DN, GF, CR, GE, SP, YOLT, TB, TSWLM, LALD, TLD, TND, FYEO, SF, MR, TMWTGG, TWINE, OP, AVTAK, DAF, LTK, QOS, DAD

    1. Connery 2. Craig 3. Brosnan 4. Dalton 5. Lazenby 6. Moore
  • DieAnotherDayDieAnotherDay Glasgow, ScotlandPosts: 460MI6 Agent
    Some very good points above. I never quite think that TND strays into generic action movie territory all too much. For me, it still all feels distinctly bond, but I agree that it is by far the most action packed Bond film to date and that causes a bit of a problem for the story trying to be told. The one main thing that I think TND really could have done with is Peter Lamont on board as the production designer because the lack of the previously established Mi6 headquarters and lavish sets do tend to make it feel a little less identifiable as a 007 Flick.
    ....and the best he ever managed was a sermon on the mount.
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    Manxman wrote:
    I don't particularly like any of the Brosnan films (to my mind, he's the only Bond actor who didn't get at least one classic outing) but there's no competition between these two films. The World Is Not Enough is a reasonably good Bond film: I'd rate it alongside Spectre and somewhat below Licence To Kill, which I regard as the least of the "great" Bond films. In contrast, Tomorrow Never Dies is one of only two Bond films I consider virtually worthless (the other being Moonraker, for completely different reasons.

    TWINE is the only Bond film in which Brosnan gets to do much acting, and he's more than up to the task, appearing genuinely disgusted with Elektra and her treachery. The film also has an interesting plot, though it's so convoluted at the beginning that it's hard to see how Bond identified Renard as the main villain.

    In contrast, TND is the closest the Bond films ever came to a generic action movie, with one-dimensional characters (Wai Lin appears to have no personality or quirks whatsoever), wooden acting (not for a moment do I believe Bond and Paris Carver were once lovers) and merely adequate action scenes. It's essentially an assemblage of Bond clichés (icy madman trying to start a world war assisted by a huge blond henchman) with little or no identity of its own. The only moments I really like are Dr Kaufman, who is genuinely disturbing, and the scene where Carver mocks Wai Lin's martial arts prowess, which makes me wonder why they didn't make the character sarcastic and politically incorrect throughout the film – that would have been genuinely interesting.

    I don't really care for Goldeneye (washed-out low-budget TV movie masquerading as a Bond film) or Die Another Day (potentially good film spoiled by ridiculous special effects and a smug, self-reverential tone) much either, but I prefer them to TND.

    The other thing that strikes me about the Brosnan films is how much I dislike Moneypenny in them. The films' dialogue largely consists of dreadful sexual double entendres, and on several occasions Moneypenny is used to explain the "jokes" (and I use the word loosely) to the thicker members of the audience. I have nothing against double entendres (the Piz Gloria scenes in OHMSS are full of them) but they need to be clever rather than resembling outtakes from a "Carry On" film.
    I agree whole-heartedly with so much here except two points: First, Kaufmann is a terrible character who can't decide if he's supposed to be scary or campy, and too often falls into the latter category with the writing and Vincent Sciavelli's portrayal ("Heff you tried zee ottoklub?"). Second, I'd say TND is more a generic Bond film than a generic action movie because it seems to hit all the basic elements of the formula and more seamlessly than any other of Brosnan's creaky outings -- but this is part of the reason why I like it so much more than the others, as it also has a momentum that makes it more fun.

    I found the PTS of TWINE far better than the rest of the movie. Like GE, it brings up an interesting idea for a villain -- in this case, a dying assassin/terrorist who can no longer feel pain -- and then does absolutely nothing of interest with it. It also apes OHMSS. Elektra is a kind of poor man's Tracy in appearance and temperament, and the skiing scenes look plagiarized from the much better 1969 film. My brain basically shut down after the sappy theme song finished playing, and though I perked up a bit when the BMW Z4 showed up (as I eventually got one), there wasn't enough story or action to sustain the rest of the meandering and listless movie.
  • Desert KrisDesert Kris Posts: 27MI6 Agent
    I assume all that CGI costs a lot of money because of the endless lists of tiny little names in the credits at the end of CGI heavy films ... all those technicians have to get paid

    speaking of locations reminds me of another Doctor Who example .... the Third Doctor episodes were originally confined to Earth to save the costs of building all those alien landscapes ... and the show looks a hell of lot better all of a sudden, because Jon Pertwee is chasing The Master all around the English countryside instead of battling Cybermen in wobbly stagesets
    more location work! less CGI!

    Those old DW stories have a curious visual language, the way exteriors are on film and interiors are on video. When I was a kid, it felt like when they went outdoors they went into a "movie" setting, and when they went indoors it was like they were walking onto the set of a sitcom! Along those lines, I agree with you, the Pertwee era looks fantastic because of that effect, being able to go exterior on believable Earth locations.

    Regarding the OP, I prefer TWINE. Part of it has to do with my preference for how Bond is characterized. I like Bond cold, or volatile angry. I think that's why I'm fairly forgiving of GE, which feels like a very cold movie. TWINE returns to that a bit, I feel. TND feels to me like its making an attempt to make Bond warmer and more personable, but the relationship with Paris feels opportunistic, and Bond's passionate "I'm with you, all the way" reassurances to Wai Lin are confusing given his attitude and demeanor established in GE. There are moments in TND where the editing or pacing feel choppy, in some way I can't articulate specifically, it's just a gut feeling. There's a weird moment early on when Bond is being pounded on by a bunch of thugs, something feels off about that sequence; like he should be giving it his all throughout rather than rallying himself at the last minute (I know maybe it's to build suspense, but it doesn't feel like it makes sense). Pryce feels too much like a mustache-twirler, "I'm evil, I know it, and I love being it," and it's almost like he's trying to listen for the audience to boo hiss at him from beyond the fourth wall. I found Renard and Elektra compelling, or at least interesting enough to be curious about. TND ending sequence, when their mucking about in the stealth boat, feels tonally uneven, with Bond doing his sentimental thing towards Wai Lin one moment, then dispatching enemies with a violence that is viscous. It's those tonal shifts that leave me disconcerted, and as the final scenes of the movie don't leave a favorable impression. TWINE feels more even-handed with it's ending, even though it's technically confusing. I like that Bond has leverage in TWINE, he can get a reaction out of Renard; it's Bond who is potentially vulnerable in TND but it doesn't feel genuine in TND, somehow.

    So, despite some silliness in TWINE, there's a lot of points that work in it's favor for me, over TND. At least it's not as silly and over the top compared to DAD; which is an argument in favor of DAD, making TWINE more down-to-Earth in comparison.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,062MI6 Agent
    "Heff you tried zee ottoklub?" In such a serious scene this just underscores for me the character's absolute misogyny & misanthropic disdain for the violence he has just perpetrated on Mrs. Carver. It's not funny, rather it's chilling. That's MY take on it anyways.
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    I saw it with my girlfriend at the time, and we cringed at the whole scene.

    She even leaned in and whispered dryly, "Dr. Kaufman, Dr. Coffin, ha ha, I get it." She wasn't a Bond fan at all, and the film did nothing to encourage her.

    The scene has too many lame funny bits -- the dopey guy trying to open the car door and getting an electric shock after seeing someone else get the same, Stamper screaming in Kaufman's ear, Schiavelli's overdone, Hogan's Heroes-style accent, and lines like the auto club one.

    Played straight and with a different actor -- Schiavelli specialized in portaying loons and comic relief -- it might have worked. But the whole thing had that compromise problem that plagued the Brosnan era. They couldn't decide if they wanted to be dark or funny and so split the difference. In fact, while Schiavelli is camping it up, super-serious Brosnan acts like he's in a different movie.

    Examined closely, the scene is a reworking of Bond and Professor Dent in Dr. No. It's not exactly the same, of course, but the basic elements are. That earlier scene works to perfection because it sustains its menace all the way through, with the most chilling aspect being that Bond ultimately turns out to be a more cold-blooded killer than Dent. But the TND one is just all over the place, and rather than the whole scene maintaining suspense and momentum, relies on the pay off one liner, "So am I" It's a good line wasted in an uneven scene but not even close to "And you've had your six."
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    One of my favourite scenes in the movie. Brosnan's delivery of the " Me too " line is perfect.
    The phone controlled car chase was fantastically inventive, and I had a big smile on my
    Face throughout. -{
    I think that's one of the problems the producers always have to balance. Trying to mix
    The fantasy spectacular elements while still trying to keep it grounded in some sense of
    Reality, but still giving us some unusual characters and giving us a good time.
    After all if it was as easy as some would have you think, there would be hundreds of
    successful spy movies every year. :D
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • ManxmanManxman Posts: 125MI6 Agent
    Gassy Man wrote:
    Kaufmann is a terrible character who can't decide if he's supposed to be scary or campy, and too often falls into the latter category with the writing and Vincent Sciavelli's portrayal ("Heff you tried zee ottoklub?").
    I think that's why I like the character so much: Schiavelli's portrayal of him is so light and glib and camp that it makes the character especially repulsive. I doubt the sex lives of most Bond villains would be particularly pleasant, but I imagine Kaufman as being a paedophile or something equally grotesque: smug, fastidious and sadistic, he is perhaps the most unpleasant character in any Bond film.

    A similar effect was achieved in Father Ted, when the writers engaged Brendan Grace (a huge, boisterous stand-up comedian and pub landlord) to play Father Jack's temporary replacement Fintan Stack. Stack was supposed to be a very angry man, and they were expecting Grace to roar out the lines but instead he delivered them in a light, camp and effeminate manner, which made the character seem sinister and malevolent.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Western Mass, USAPosts: 9,062MI6 Agent
    Manxman wrote:
    Gassy Man wrote:
    Kaufmann is a terrible character who can't decide if he's supposed to be scary or campy, and too often falls into the latter category with the writing and Vincent Sciavelli's portrayal ("Heff you tried zee ottoklub?").
    I think that's why I like the character so much: Schiavelli's portrayal of him is so light and glib and camp that it makes the character especially repulsive.
    I see we share the same feelings here. {[]
    Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool.
    #1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
  • Dirty PunkerDirty Punker ...Your Eyes Only, darling."Posts: 2,587MI6 Agent
    About Bond villain's's sex lives...(and my oddest post yet but...here we are!)
    ...Dr No presumably has none and he would find it troubling to...choke the bird so to speak.
    ...Red Grant had a masseuse and Klebb's a lesbo. Klebb shouldn't find it hard to blackmail someone into doing her. She also enjoyed herself when she taped certain intimate moments between two agents.
    ...Goldfinger has Tilly for just being seen but that doesn't mean he couldn't do the same for other things.
    ...Largo had Domino. That's about it.
    ...Blofeld has pussy galore...*winks at camera*...and Irma. Not to mention Blofeld's angels. He also crossdressed, so...eh...results inconclusive.
    ...Mr Big..."My that's a big one"...had Solitaire.
    ...Scaramanga had his no hassle-easily replaceable mistresses.
    ...Stromberg would also find difficulty communicating with Dr Jerkov but he did have his beautiful assistants. Maybe he Gogol-d them.
    ...Drax hung out with models but he needed some personal space.
    ...Who cares about FYEO?
    ...Khan had Octopussy *winks at camera* and Magda.
    ...Zorin the "physiological freak" was attracted to MayDay but it's unknown whether he actually bedded her.
    ...Who cares about The Living Daylights?
    ...Sanchez had many girls come and go *winks at camera*.
    ...Trevelyan could've had Onatopp but he had a valid concern. He also shared everything with James or merely the left-overs.
    ...Carver presumably had many trophy wives but his last one (and his only known one) was Paris. Unknown how a woman like her got involved with a man like him.
    ...Renard had Elektra. Doubt any woman before her.
    ...Graves had Frost after growing cold in NK. Maybe some women before her when he was specialising on western hypocrisy.
    ...Le Chiffre had a blonde, presumably a model in over her head but somehow involved in his business and other women before her from his poker days.
    ...Another dirty money, heaven sent honey, turning on a dime villain with an interesting sex-life.
    ...Silva was...well...as VesperMelograno would've put it...a queer. Whomever, whatever. Zorin could also qualify.
    That just about wraps it up. Sorry for the llllllooooonnnnggg post.
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  • ironponyironpony Posts: 57MI6 Agent
    I like them both, but I TWINE better. TWINE has two of my favorite villains of the series. I like the villain in TND as well, but TWINE has two of the very best, and a better story overall.
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