I know it is not liked by many, but for me AVTAK is one of my favourite James Bond films (I also put 'Octupussy' in that list!)
It would certainly have been very different if Timothy Dalton had played James Bond but, for me at least, perhaps not better.
I too love Octopussy. Perhaps it's the most underrated of them all?
That is precisely what I always say! I think Octopussy is often written off by people as one of the worst Bond films because of a couple of silly moments - Tarzan, sit!, and of course Bond in a clown suit (which is actually one of my favourite moments in the film). I always enjoy it when people express a fondness for lesser-loved Bond films like OP and AVTAK, because although neither rank among my top 10 (Octopussy isn't far off) they are two of the film that I enjoy frequently rewatching. The 1980s Bond films have a certain quality about them that makes it feel like spending time with beloved family members.
So now you've got me thinking about what Octopussy would be like with Timothy Dalton... 8-)
I know it is not liked by many, but for me AVTAK is one of my favourite James Bond films (I also put 'Octupussy' in that list!)
It would certainly have been very different if Timothy Dalton had played James Bond but, for me at least, perhaps not better.
I too love Octopussy. Perhaps it's the most underrated of them all?
That is precisely what I always say! I think Octopussy is often written off by people as one of the worst Bond films because of a couple of silly moments - Tarzan, sit!, and of course Bond in a clown suit (which is actually one of my favourite moments in the film). I always enjoy it when people express a fondness for lesser-loved Bond films like OP and AVTAK, because although neither rank among my top 10 (Octopussy isn't far off) they are two of the film that I enjoy frequently rewatching. The 1980s Bond films have a certain quality about them that makes it feel like spending time with beloved family members.
So now you've got me thinking about what Octopussy would be like with Timothy Dalton... 8-)
When I was a kid I wasn't a fan of Octopussy because I thought it was too serious compared to favorites of mine like Live and Let Die and Moonraker. Overall it isn't a silly film, because as you say it just has a few silly moments. Now it's one of my favourites. I still don't get the clown suit criticism, as it isn't silly or making Bond into a joke.
I like A View to a Kill, but not nearly as much as I like Octopussy. To make AVTAK into a better film, simply switching out Moore for another actor wouldn't make it a better film. Rewriting sections of the film and still keeping Moore could have made it better. If we had another actor in the role, we would have had an entirely different film with a much different story, and I don't think it could have been something we could compare to the AVTAK that we have.
Yeah, you can't exactly have David Bowie as an idea for a villain and expect to use anyone other than Moore for the leading role.
That just wouldn't be what AVTAK is about.
Ditto on Octopussy but again, Dalton wouldn't work for it as much I'd say because of how Roger can bounce off of the silly moments that the movie has. Bond in a clown suit makes it even scarier for me, imo. The lengths he'd go to to save the people...which in a way is thrown in the bin in A View To a Kill. I sustain that OP is the perfect swan song.
Ivanova is great as a concept but sucks as an execution. Being a violinist or what have you makes it feel like we're seeing draw ups of Living Daylights, not an actual character from Bond's past...and Dalton wouldn't work at all for that sequence.
I also can't see Dalton stealing a cab, horse-riding or doing much of the stuff Moore did on this one because it simply isn't the style of what his Bond would do at all.
It would be better to just jettison AVTAK altogether and go straight to TLD.
AVTAK was so obviously written for Roger, and with so little effort behind it, that it doesn't make sense as anything other than a tired, just-another-Bond-film. And I say that as someone who enjoys it for the most part, even if I do think it's a lesser entry. TLD, on the other hand, felt like it was something close to a mission statement: a grittier, more serious espionage film.
More crucially, if Dalton had been approached, would he have wanted to appear in a film like that?
There are plenty of action scenes in AVTAK, but Moore wasnt around when they were filmed
The scenes at the castle were tailor made for Moore, but I dont think the rest was particularly his style. Some scenes would actually have fitted Dalton better.
As has been said above, the movie relies heavily on Moore's own elements, and it would have been difficult to imagine anyone else in such situations. Nevertheless, assuming a page one rewrite has occurred, visualizing Dalton against Christopher Walken or Grace Jones is certainly easy but also promising. I never liked AVTAK, in my eyes, not only the plot lacked personality, but the American setting wasn't that interesting, as much as I love Dalton, he would not have changed that.
I think all those John Glenn era films could have worked with Dalton, they'd be maybe even better with a few tweaks. Octopussy probably least of the three Glenn/Moores, it'd need the most tweaking. Come to think of it, couldn't even picture the chaste DaltonBond on the Island of Beautiful Women, so that's a major chunk of the story that'd need rewriting.
But aVTaK could mostly work. Its a darker story, with a younger supporting cast. Moore's presence actually undermines how dark the story is, rather confusing the tone of a transitional film.
Still lots of details would have to change. Patrick MacNee's casting would make no sense without Moore.
That stoopid iceberg/sub at the beginning, that's a visual callback to Stromberg's escape capsule. DaltonBond'd never use that. (I would like to see the ice chase expanded in place of the stoopid iceberg/sub content, then we could say the film steals scenes from each of Gardner's first four novels)
And chaste Dalton wouldn't have had a sexy assistant waiting for him in the precredits, would not have shared a hot tub with a random sexy Russian spy halfway through, and definitely would not have slept with Mayday. But his relationship with Stacey would have been much the same, Moore was uncharacteristically respectful of her personal space until the very end.
Dalton might even have made the same quiche! (remember his picnic basket in the next film, his was a foodie Bond comfortable in the kitchen)
And chaste Dalton wouldn't have had a sexy assistant waiting for him in the precredits, would not have shared a hot tub with a random sexy Russian spy halfway through, and definitely would not have slept with Mayday.
Is this the same so-called "chaste Dalton" who couldn't resist spending an extra hour on a boat with a thoroughly bored of tennis-pros random woman sailing off Gibraltar?
I think bedding Stacey at her house would have worked fine for DaltonBond. So would sex with the KGB agent. Bond shagging May Day would have worked much better for Dalton than it did for Moore.
I think bedding Stacey at her house would have worked fine for DaltonBond. So would sex with the KGB agent. Bond shagging May Day would have worked much better for Dalton than it did for Moore.
I think there's a reason Dalton's Bond never does bedroom scenes. I cannot picture him doing any of these things. Connery is probably the only Bond that I could see taking on May Day in the bedroom.
I don't think Dalton would have saved AVTAK. For starters, it's a Goldfinger clone absent of all the fun and glamour. As has been noted, the writing is lazy, and the production, while globetrotting, still feels uninspired. Moore's age didn't help, but if the script had remained, the movie would have seemed tired even with Dalton in the role. David Bowie was wise to have not done it.
To me, it would have been better for Moore to sign off with Moonraker, which felt a fitting bon voyage, and for Dalton to have come in with For Your Eyes Only. Skip OP and AVTAK and let Dalton wrap up with Goldeneye or Tomorrow Never Lies (assuming no six year gap), perhaps with an original film or two in between.
Something like AVTAK was better suited for Pierce Brosnan, who missed his opportunity to be a lighter Bond, which he was born to play. He was just never tough enough to play the more butch version of Bond he tried to create, which is why his films, though profitable, seem almost campy by comparison to the Craig ones. That lighter approach would also have worked for OP.
I think it would easily be in my top five, had Timothy Dalton started here. I don't care if the movie is a Goldfinger clone as long as it is enjoyable, and providing interesting elements.
I don't think Dalton would have saved AVTAK. For starters, it's a Goldfinger clone absent of all the fun and glamour. As has been noted, the writing is lazy, and the production, while globetrotting, still feels uninspired. Moore's age didn't help, but if the script had remained, the movie would have seemed tired even with Dalton in the role. David Bowie was wise to have not done it.
To me, it would have been better for Moore to sign off with Moonraker, which felt a fitting bon voyage, and for Dalton to have come in with For Your Eyes Only. Skip OP and AVTAK and let Dalton wrap up with Goldeneye or Tomorrow Never Lies (assuming no six year gap), perhaps with an original film or two in between.
Something like AVTAK was better suited for Pierce Brosnan, who missed his opportunity to be a lighter Bond, which he was born to play. He was just never tough enough to play the more butch version of Bond he tried to create, which is why his films, though profitable, seem almost campy by comparison to the Craig ones. That lighter approach would also have worked for OP.
I disagree on a few points. I think all of the Brosnan Bonds wire of the «Fun Bond» type. The reason DaltonBond didn’t get land a lot was the AIDS epidemic. Dalton was younger and thougher than Moore, so bedring May Day would have looked much better with him. Especially the submachinegun massakre would have fitted Dalton better than Brosnan and specially Moore. AVTAK has fun and glamour - lots of it,
I don't think Dalton would have saved AVTAK. For starters, it's a Goldfinger clone absent of all the fun and glamour. As has been noted, the writing is lazy, and the production, while globetrotting, still feels uninspired. Moore's age didn't help, but if the script had remained, the movie would have seemed tired even with Dalton in the role. David Bowie was wise to have not done it.
To me, it would have been better for Moore to sign off with Moonraker, which felt a fitting bon voyage, and for Dalton to have come in with For Your Eyes Only. Skip OP and AVTAK and let Dalton wrap up with Goldeneye or Tomorrow Never Lies (assuming no six year gap), perhaps with an original film or two in between.
Something like AVTAK was better suited for Pierce Brosnan, who missed his opportunity to be a lighter Bond, which he was born to play. He was just never tough enough to play the more butch version of Bond he tried to create, which is why his films, though profitable, seem almost campy by comparison to the Craig ones. That lighter approach would also have worked for OP.
I disagree on a few points. I think all of the Brosnan Bonds wire of the «Fun Bond» type. The reason DaltonBond didn’t get land a lot was the AIDS epidemic. Dalton was younger and thougher than Moore, so bedring May Day would have looked much better with him. Especially the submachinegun massakre would have fitted Dalton better than Brosnan and specially Moore. AVTAK has fun and glamour - lots of it,
I like it too, although the reason I like it has more to do with the location than with the actual quality of the scenes that take place there. San Francisco has some nice history in cinema, particularly as the location of Hitchcock's Vertigo. Of course the climax with the airship over San Francisco and the Golden Gate bridge scene are spectacular and iconic and accompanied by excellent music. That sequence is one that will always keep me coming back to AVTAK.
I like it too, although the reason I like it has more to do with the location than with the actual quality of the scenes that take place there. San Francisco has some nice history in cinema, particularly as the location of Hitchcock's Vertigo. Of course the climax with the airship over San Francisco and the Golden Gate bridge scene are spectacular and iconic and accompanied by excellent music. That sequence is one that will always keep me coming back to AVTAK.
I like A View To A Kill a lot because of the locations, score, action scenes and main villain of course since he is one of the best. I don't mind Tanya Roberts but it would have been better if she had been with a younger bond like Timothy Dalton and I just think the only problem I have with this film is Roger Moore, he just does not look good on this movie and feels like he aged significantly since the previous film, and then you have the lazy stunt doubles. These two factors really downgrade the experience for me, but for all the good I mentioned does put it near my top ten or just outside. It is nowhere near Roger Moore's worst for me, which still go to The Man With The Golden Gun. This movie is definitely the weakest one of the 80's in regards to the official series.
Comments
At about 7 minutes 30 seconds in, they discuss the possibility of Dalton in AVTAK.
It would certainly have been very different if Timothy Dalton had played James Bond but, for me at least, perhaps not better.
I too love Octopussy. Perhaps it's the most underrated of them all?
That is precisely what I always say! I think Octopussy is often written off by people as one of the worst Bond films because of a couple of silly moments - Tarzan, sit!, and of course Bond in a clown suit (which is actually one of my favourite moments in the film). I always enjoy it when people express a fondness for lesser-loved Bond films like OP and AVTAK, because although neither rank among my top 10 (Octopussy isn't far off) they are two of the film that I enjoy frequently rewatching. The 1980s Bond films have a certain quality about them that makes it feel like spending time with beloved family members.
So now you've got me thinking about what Octopussy would be like with Timothy Dalton... 8-)
When I was a kid I wasn't a fan of Octopussy because I thought it was too serious compared to favorites of mine like Live and Let Die and Moonraker. Overall it isn't a silly film, because as you say it just has a few silly moments. Now it's one of my favourites. I still don't get the clown suit criticism, as it isn't silly or making Bond into a joke.
I like A View to a Kill, but not nearly as much as I like Octopussy. To make AVTAK into a better film, simply switching out Moore for another actor wouldn't make it a better film. Rewriting sections of the film and still keeping Moore could have made it better. If we had another actor in the role, we would have had an entirely different film with a much different story, and I don't think it could have been something we could compare to the AVTAK that we have.
That just wouldn't be what AVTAK is about.
Ditto on Octopussy but again, Dalton wouldn't work for it as much I'd say because of how Roger can bounce off of the silly moments that the movie has. Bond in a clown suit makes it even scarier for me, imo. The lengths he'd go to to save the people...which in a way is thrown in the bin in A View To a Kill. I sustain that OP is the perfect swan song.
Ivanova is great as a concept but sucks as an execution. Being a violinist or what have you makes it feel like we're seeing draw ups of Living Daylights, not an actual character from Bond's past...and Dalton wouldn't work at all for that sequence.
I also can't see Dalton stealing a cab, horse-riding or doing much of the stuff Moore did on this one because it simply isn't the style of what his Bond would do at all.
There are plenty of action scenes in AVTAK, but Moore wasnt around when they were filmed
The scenes at the castle were tailor made for Moore, but I dont think the rest was particularly his style. Some scenes would actually have fitted Dalton better.
Octopussy probably least of the three Glenn/Moores, it'd need the most tweaking. Come to think of it, couldn't even picture the chaste DaltonBond on the Island of Beautiful Women, so that's a major chunk of the story that'd need rewriting.
But aVTaK could mostly work. Its a darker story, with a younger supporting cast. Moore's presence actually undermines how dark the story is, rather confusing the tone of a transitional film.
Still lots of details would have to change. Patrick MacNee's casting would make no sense without Moore.
That stoopid iceberg/sub at the beginning, that's a visual callback to Stromberg's escape capsule. DaltonBond'd never use that. (I would like to see the ice chase expanded in place of the stoopid iceberg/sub content, then we could say the film steals scenes from each of Gardner's first four novels)
And chaste Dalton wouldn't have had a sexy assistant waiting for him in the precredits, would not have shared a hot tub with a random sexy Russian spy halfway through, and definitely would not have slept with Mayday. But his relationship with Stacey would have been much the same, Moore was uncharacteristically respectful of her personal space until the very end.
Dalton might even have made the same quiche! (remember his picnic basket in the next film, his was a foodie Bond comfortable in the kitchen)
Is this the same so-called "chaste Dalton" who couldn't resist spending an extra hour on a boat with a thoroughly bored of tennis-pros random woman sailing off Gibraltar?
I think there's a reason Dalton's Bond never does bedroom scenes. I cannot picture him doing any of these things. Connery is probably the only Bond that I could see taking on May Day in the bedroom.
To me, it would have been better for Moore to sign off with Moonraker, which felt a fitting bon voyage, and for Dalton to have come in with For Your Eyes Only. Skip OP and AVTAK and let Dalton wrap up with Goldeneye or Tomorrow Never Lies (assuming no six year gap), perhaps with an original film or two in between.
Something like AVTAK was better suited for Pierce Brosnan, who missed his opportunity to be a lighter Bond, which he was born to play. He was just never tough enough to play the more butch version of Bond he tried to create, which is why his films, though profitable, seem almost campy by comparison to the Craig ones. That lighter approach would also have worked for OP.
1. Dalton 2. Moore 3. Connery 4. Lazenby 5. Craig 6. Brosnan
I disagree on a few points. I think all of the Brosnan Bonds wire of the «Fun Bond» type. The reason DaltonBond didn’t get land a lot was the AIDS epidemic. Dalton was younger and thougher than Moore, so bedring May Day would have looked much better with him. Especially the submachinegun massakre would have fitted Dalton better than Brosnan and specially Moore. AVTAK has fun and glamour - lots of it,
I love the San Francisco portion of the movie.
1. Dalton 2. Moore 3. Connery 4. Lazenby 5. Craig 6. Brosnan
I like it too, although the reason I like it has more to do with the location than with the actual quality of the scenes that take place there. San Francisco has some nice history in cinema, particularly as the location of Hitchcock's Vertigo. Of course the climax with the airship over San Francisco and the Golden Gate bridge scene are spectacular and iconic and accompanied by excellent music. That sequence is one that will always keep me coming back to AVTAK.
I like A View To A Kill a lot because of the locations, score, action scenes and main villain of course since he is one of the best. I don't mind Tanya Roberts but it would have been better if she had been with a younger bond like Timothy Dalton and I just think the only problem I have with this film is Roger Moore, he just does not look good on this movie and feels like he aged significantly since the previous film, and then you have the lazy stunt doubles. These two factors really downgrade the experience for me, but for all the good I mentioned does put it near my top ten or just outside. It is nowhere near Roger Moore's worst for me, which still go to The Man With The Golden Gun. This movie is definitely the weakest one of the 80's in regards to the official series.
1. Dalton 2. Moore 3. Connery 4. Lazenby 5. Craig 6. Brosnan