I'm on the case! Turnbull are looking into it for me.
Cheers,
Blair
Great, looking forward to see what they find. I’m in the process of having my PoW collar with them updated (I’ve been a bespoke customer there since the late noughties), so would be great to have the TWINE collar measurements as reference.
I'm on the case! Turnbull are looking into it for me.
Cheers,
Blair
Great, looking forward to see what they find. I’m in the process of having my PoW collar with them updated (I’ve been a bespoke customer there since the late noughties), so would be great to have the TWINE collar measurements as reference.
Thanks,
BB
The TWINE collar is between the POW and Regent collars in spread, so measurements alone won’t get it right.
The TWINE collar is between the POW and Regent collars in spread, so measurements alone won’t get it right.
I actually have both a Regent collar pattern and a PoW pattern with them. Almost all my shirts over the years have been with the Regent collar and I have in the last years had the Regent collar slightly adjusted to make it slightly taller/deeper.
Funnily enough, when the Regent collar pattern was made back in 2009/10 I used the Brioni collar in DAD as inspiration, which resulted in increasing the spread of the Regent collar and narrowing the tie space. So now I'm not sure whether I should use my Regent collar or PoW collar to "replicate" the TWINE collar..
It looks closer in spread to the POW if you ask me. I actually find the "TWINE" collar shape is quite common on instagram amongst italians (or people who post about their italian bespoke shirts). Generally not quite as wide as the DAD brioni collar. But they seem to like their collars a bit taller and with that sort of curved spread... usually with almost no tie space though.
Any news from T&A Blair? I know James Cook is only in the office/shop about one day a week, so I’d imagine it takes some time for them to get back on this.
So this is direct from the horse’s mouth- from James Cook- who has the CAD files of the Brosnan shirt- “So the NO 3 collar is as standard. 3” points and 7/82 back of collar. Anyone who wants this should just ask for the No 3 collar and that’s what they will receive.”
Many fans believe that the Tomorrow Never Dies POW collar was made slightly higher to make its appearance more in line with the style of the Sulka shirts worn in Goldeneye. I think Matt S thought it was about 1/8th of an inch higher. From my colleague on this project’s experience of having his bespoke POW shirt collars raised, he estimated it was about 2/8th of an inch (ie.1/4 of an inch) higher. However, it's something we will need to measure from the CAD drawings when we’re next in T&A to shoot the second part of the film. Hence, I could be completely wrong.
The TWINE collars are very difficult to judge in terms of collar height. The No 3 collar in the film certainly looks about the same as the Tomorrow Never Dies POW collar (ie about 1/4 inch higher). However, there are a couple of other factors to assess. Firstly the standard T&A collar and the standard No 3 collar naturally have a higher collar construction than the other collars Turnbull offer. Hence, they will normally have a higher stance.
The other aspect which distorts judgement is the fact that Brosnan never wears a tie with the French blue shirt. This can also affect collar height because the heavy T&A jacquard weave ties can pull down the front of the collar, shortening the height. The fact that Brosnan doesn't wear a tie with the shirt means that it can potentially appear higher than a regular No 3 shirt would if it was buttoned down.
While we can speculate on whether collars were heightened or not, having the actual original CAD drawings is absolutely invaluable because it's a primary historical source. Primary source information supported by original archive receipts, CAD patterns and historical archived swatches.
Hence, at the moment, if James Cook says the No 3 collar from TWINE was standard, then we'll have to take his word for it. We will take our own measurements next time in Jermyn Street and then compare them to a standard 'off the shelf' No 3 shirt, but we may well find the same thing. It's all a part of the detailed tapestry of the Brosnan era.
So if you want absolute certainty- hold off ordering your shirts until I can make my way back to Jermyn Street for the second video, once this lockdown has been lifted, and we can pore over the CAD files. I can't wait....
I suspect when BB asked about the "TWINE collar", he probably meant the one worn in Bilbao, London, Azerbaijan, and other scenes as that is the one most people ask about on the Bond style forums. That one appears to be some sort of cross between a Regent and POW.
That is good to know about the No3 collar though, thanks for finding out about that Blair. I quite agree with your comment about the tapestry of the Brosnan era - perhaps it is just the distance in time or the details (almost) lost to time, but there is much more intrigue to me about the clothing choices of that era than most of the recent films, which seem more easily achievable once the item has been identified. The TWINE collar appears to be quite custom and I think even basic collar measurements alone (as Matt points out) will not be enough to get the look.
My colleague suspects that the TWINE Bilbao shirt is the standard shape of the Regent collar, which James highlights in my vlog. We can take measurements and pictures next time we're in Jermyn Street, with a protractor to measure the exact angle of the slant, but I suspect it may well be standard again. (James Cook simply identified the collar at immediate glance when we asked him last time).
We can supply a nifty chart in the future with all the collar heights, angles and tip lengths when we shoot part 2 as soon as it's safe. James also has all the Brosnan collars, card-backed, as well, so we can all see exactly where we are and what to order.
Cheers one and all,
Blair
From video-
Tomorrow Never Dies they use a Prince of Wales Collar. In TWINE for the Blue and White Shirts all have the Regent Collar. The French Blue one has a No 3 and the Dress Shirt has the T&A Collar.
I suspect when BB asked about the "TWINE collar", he probably meant the one worn in Bilbao, London, Azerbaijan, and other scenes as that is the one most people ask about on the Bond style forums. That one appears to be some sort of cross between a Regent and POW.
That is good to know about the No3 collar though, thanks for finding out about that Blair. I quite agree with your comment about the tapestry of the Brosnan era - perhaps it is just the distance in time or the details (almost) lost to time, but there is much more intrigue to me about the clothing choices of that era than most of the recent films, which seem more easily achievable once the item has been identified. The TWINE collar appears to be quite custom and I think even basic collar measurements alone (as Matt points out) will not be enough to get the look.
Many thanks for your efforts Blair. And great that T&A are really cooperating on this.
As urhash points out it indeed is the Bilbao collar I’m looking for. As a bit of fun in these lockdown days I thought I’d order as authentic a copy of the Bilbao shirt as possible (only in my size of course).
I have the cloth no now, and want to just make sure I get the correct collar. I suspect that if I just ask for the TWINE collar I might not get something completely accurate. Basically I would need them to take Brosnan’s collar pattern (CAD) for the Bilbao shirt and adjust it to my collar size, leaving everything else as is. Given that I have a much shorter neck than Brosnan they may want to adjust the height a bit, but I’ll fight them on that )
I took a photo of the Bilbao fabric last time I was at the store. (I guess it's technically not just the "Bilbao" fabric since T&A has now identified it as also being the same one from TND lol). In person though it looks more like what was worn in TWINE, whereas for TND, if you are purely going by how it "looks" on film, I'd actually recommend one of their light blue poplins for the TND look.
I took a photo of the Bilbao fabric last time I was at the store. (I guess it's technically not just the "Bilbao" fabric since T&A has now identified it as also being the same one from TND lol). In person though it looks more like what was worn in TWINE, whereas for TND, if you are purely going by how it "looks" on film, I'd actually recommend one of their light blue poplins for the TND look.
Thanks, it looks very nice. I didn’t realize it was Sea Island quality, I guess that adds another £100 to the shirt lol.
I’m scheduled to speak with T&A this week, and will refer to Blair’s discussions with them regarding the collar.
I know someone who has the TWINE collar. The spread is between the POW and Regent collars but closer to POW. When the collar dimensions are changed by raising it up and changing the point lengths, it affects the way the spread appears. The person who designed the TWINE collar told me that he originally made it as a two-button collar, but for Pierce they brought it back down to one button. I believe the design started with a Regent collar, but by the time it got to Pierce it was heavily altered.
My bad! I just saw you mentioning "BB asked for the TWINE collar he probably meant the Bilbao" I thought that you were talking about my conversation with James- my initials are BB! I can reach out to James to get the exact measurements of the Bilbao TWINE collar, if it would help.
I suspect when BB asked about the "TWINE collar", he probably meant the one worn in Bilbao, London, Azerbaijan, and other scenes as that is the one most people ask about on the Bond style forums. That one appears to be some sort of cross between a Regent and POW.
That is good to know about the No3 collar though, thanks for finding out about that Blair. I quite agree with your comment about the tapestry of the Brosnan era - perhaps it is just the distance in time or the details (almost) lost to time, but there is much more intrigue to me about the clothing choices of that era than most of the recent films, which seem more easily achievable once the item has been identified. The TWINE collar appears to be quite custom and I think even basic collar measurements alone (as Matt points out) will not be enough to get the look.
I've already dropped him a line. It looks like the kids won't return to school due to the lockdown until at least March 8th, so my return visit for Part 2 won't be filmed until at least that week, so you all might want to hold off your orders if you want to see the CAD files, me and a ruler in action....
I talked to T&A today and the process is under way. The mission? Recreate the Bilbao shirt in a screen accurate way, only adjusted to my pattern/size. But I asked that the only adjustment to the collar is my neck size, ie keep the height of the collar etc.
I talked to T&A today and the process is under way. The mission? Recreate the Bilbao shirt in a screen accurate way, only adjusted to my pattern/size. But I asked that the only adjustment to the collar is my neck size, ie keep the height of the collar etc.
That’s cool, looking forward to seeing the results! Brosnan’s shirts were mostly distinguished by the collar (the rest of his shirt pretty much looks like a RTW double cuff)... so if you can get the collar you’re 90% of the way there.
Do you mind if I bring it up for Part 2 of the vlog? It's a fantastic idea!
Sure thing! Thinking about it, it could perhaps be cool if they had the shirt ready when you next are able to film in the store (after lockdown ends)? And you could make an on screen comparison to see if they got it right?
I live in oslo so it will be a looong time until I’ll be able to get to London, so they’ll have to ship it to me (ordinarily I like to stop by the shop and pick up the shirts and have a chat, but alas C-19 has put a stop to my London trips for now).
Update: T&A are now working full steam (adjusted for the ongoing lockdown) on the Bilbao shirt, including looking up Brosnan’s pattern and making sure all the aesthetic details are correct.
Hope to know more this week.
If all goes well the shirt might be ready sometime in March.
Update: T&A are now working full steam (adjusted for the ongoing lockdown) on the Bilbao shirt, including looking up Brosnan’s pattern and making sure all the aesthetic details are correct.
Hope to know more this week.
If all goes well the shirt might be ready sometime in March.
T&A reverted today after having checked and said the following about the collar:
The collar is a 'Prince Of Wales' 1 3/4" at the back with 3" collar points.
Based on the discussions here I would have thought it had a bit more spread than the PoW? Thoughts?
BaB
The collar originated from a Lindy Hemming visit to the NY store, so I suspect that while Bury St has the actual pattern and the order info, they probably don't know the backstory to all of it.
Based on the discussions here I would have thought it had a bit more spread than the PoW? Thoughts?
BaB
Thanks for sharing those measurements! Based on my observations of the pattern, it's slightly wider than a POW collar, but it's closer to a POW collar than a Regent.
T&A reverted today after having checked and said the following about the collar:
The collar originated from a Lindy Hemming visit to the NY store, so I suspect that while Bury St has the actual pattern and the order info, they probably don't know the backstory to all of it.
It was originally made for a certain American businessman who cannot be named publicly, and the designer of the collar adopted it for himself before deciding he didn't like it for himself!
Comments
The TWINE collar is between the POW and Regent collars in spread, so measurements alone won’t get it right.
Yes, I'm a customer of Bury st. But would want the measurements for reference to ensure that I get right
I actually have both a Regent collar pattern and a PoW pattern with them. Almost all my shirts over the years have been with the Regent collar and I have in the last years had the Regent collar slightly adjusted to make it slightly taller/deeper.
Funnily enough, when the Regent collar pattern was made back in 2009/10 I used the Brioni collar in DAD as inspiration, which resulted in increasing the spread of the Regent collar and narrowing the tie space. So now I'm not sure whether I should use my Regent collar or PoW collar to "replicate" the TWINE collar..
BB
Thanks.
Any news from T&A Blair? I know James Cook is only in the office/shop about one day a week, so I’d imagine it takes some time for them to get back on this.
BB
Many fans believe that the Tomorrow Never Dies POW collar was made slightly higher to make its appearance more in line with the style of the Sulka shirts worn in Goldeneye. I think Matt S thought it was about 1/8th of an inch higher. From my colleague on this project’s experience of having his bespoke POW shirt collars raised, he estimated it was about 2/8th of an inch (ie.1/4 of an inch) higher. However, it's something we will need to measure from the CAD drawings when we’re next in T&A to shoot the second part of the film. Hence, I could be completely wrong.
The TWINE collars are very difficult to judge in terms of collar height. The No 3 collar in the film certainly looks about the same as the Tomorrow Never Dies POW collar (ie about 1/4 inch higher). However, there are a couple of other factors to assess. Firstly the standard T&A collar and the standard No 3 collar naturally have a higher collar construction than the other collars Turnbull offer. Hence, they will normally have a higher stance.
The other aspect which distorts judgement is the fact that Brosnan never wears a tie with the French blue shirt. This can also affect collar height because the heavy T&A jacquard weave ties can pull down the front of the collar, shortening the height. The fact that Brosnan doesn't wear a tie with the shirt means that it can potentially appear higher than a regular No 3 shirt would if it was buttoned down.
While we can speculate on whether collars were heightened or not, having the actual original CAD drawings is absolutely invaluable because it's a primary historical source. Primary source information supported by original archive receipts, CAD patterns and historical archived swatches.
Hence, at the moment, if James Cook says the No 3 collar from TWINE was standard, then we'll have to take his word for it. We will take our own measurements next time in Jermyn Street and then compare them to a standard 'off the shelf' No 3 shirt, but we may well find the same thing. It's all a part of the detailed tapestry of the Brosnan era.
So if you want absolute certainty- hold off ordering your shirts until I can make my way back to Jermyn Street for the second video, once this lockdown has been lifted, and we can pore over the CAD files. I can't wait....
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That is good to know about the No3 collar though, thanks for finding out about that Blair. I quite agree with your comment about the tapestry of the Brosnan era - perhaps it is just the distance in time or the details (almost) lost to time, but there is much more intrigue to me about the clothing choices of that era than most of the recent films, which seem more easily achievable once the item has been identified. The TWINE collar appears to be quite custom and I think even basic collar measurements alone (as Matt points out) will not be enough to get the look.
We can supply a nifty chart in the future with all the collar heights, angles and tip lengths when we shoot part 2 as soon as it's safe. James also has all the Brosnan collars, card-backed, as well, so we can all see exactly where we are and what to order.
Cheers one and all,
Blair
From video-
Tomorrow Never Dies they use a Prince of Wales Collar. In TWINE for the Blue and White Shirts all have the Regent Collar. The French Blue one has a No 3 and the Dress Shirt has the T&A Collar.
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As urhash points out it indeed is the Bilbao collar I’m looking for. As a bit of fun in these lockdown days I thought I’d order as authentic a copy of the Bilbao shirt as possible (only in my size of course).
I have the cloth no now, and want to just make sure I get the correct collar. I suspect that if I just ask for the TWINE collar I might not get something completely accurate. Basically I would need them to take Brosnan’s collar pattern (CAD) for the Bilbao shirt and adjust it to my collar size, leaving everything else as is. Given that I have a much shorter neck than Brosnan they may want to adjust the height a bit, but I’ll fight them on that
BB
Thanks, it looks very nice. I didn’t realize it was Sea Island quality, I guess that adds another £100 to the shirt lol.
I’m scheduled to speak with T&A this week, and will refer to Blair’s discussions with them regarding the collar.
BB
Sorry for the confusion,
Blair B
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Hopefully James Cook will be able to provide those details. I will talk to T&A soon and will refer to your conversations with him
BaB (<- new shorthand!)
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Will keep you posted
"Keeping British end up, sir." - RM "This never happened to the other fellow." - JL "I must be dreaming." SC
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Sure thing! Thinking about it, it could perhaps be cool if they had the shirt ready when you next are able to film in the store (after lockdown ends)? And you could make an on screen comparison to see if they got it right?
I live in oslo so it will be a looong time until I’ll be able to get to London, so they’ll have to ship it to me (ordinarily I like to stop by the shop and pick up the shirts and have a chat, but alas C-19 has put a stop to my London trips for now).
BaB
Hope to know more this week.
If all goes well the shirt might be ready sometime in March.
BaB
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Based on the discussions here I would have thought it had a bit more spread than the PoW? Thoughts?
BaB
The collar originated from a Lindy Hemming visit to the NY store, so I suspect that while Bury St has the actual pattern and the order info, they probably don't know the backstory to all of it.
Thanks for sharing those measurements! Based on my observations of the pattern, it's slightly wider than a POW collar, but it's closer to a POW collar than a Regent.
It was originally made for a certain American businessman who cannot be named publicly, and the designer of the collar adopted it for himself before deciding he didn't like it for himself!
BaB