Controversial opinion: The Daniel Craig era sucked
John from Cork
Posts: 129MI6 Agent
The loneliest place to be is ahead of your time . I was one of the only people calling LTK a masterpiece back in summer 89, today many people agree. I have always thought that all of Craigs Bond Movies were garbage and i think I'll be vindicated in about 20 years 😂
Comments
Rememer to bump this thread in 2044. 😊
I called LTK the best Bond film since OHMSS when it came out in ‘89 (I haven’t changed my mind). CR is the best Bond movie since then. QOS and NTTD are dreadful. SF and SP are mediocre at best. So even though the Craig era is not good it’s better than the Brosnan era which is the worst era of all (only TND has any merit).
I think Brosnan was good but the scripts he had to read were absolute dross.
TWINE mainly suffers from its poor cinematography, but I really find the script full of good ideas. By the way, Benson's novelization is quite fun to read. It's the proof you can have an excellent story when it comes to a genuine writer. I just think Michael Apted was not the guy for the job, and Purvis & Wade already showed their propensity to make a plot sloppy. Such a pity !
P&W came up with the ideas you like. I think it’s a good script, full of exciting new concepts for a Bond film, but just directed rather flatly (with some really badly made action scenes). I think the editing is really guilty of the sloppiness, some of it is terrible.
The idea that Benson is a genuine writer I really struggle with. I don’t think he’s naturally a fiction writer at all.
TWINE would have been good without Denise Richards/Christmas Jones/the lara croft outfit, also since they were bringing up bonds family motto from Ohmss, i think it was a big missed opportunity not to go all the way & have Elektra King mention Bonds wife by name.
What would that change?
Please do not forget Bruce Feirstein's contribution.
Concerning Benson, that's your opinion. I think he's a very good storyteller. Zero Minus Ten is in my top 5 among the continuation novels.
Yep, that's my opinion, much like you thinking he's a good storyteller is. Stuff like the 'he disappeared out of sight behind a van for a moment' clumsy prose in Zero Minus Ten really made me think he's a pretty terrible writer. I gave up re-reading one of his recently and picked up a Horowitz and the difference is night and day: Horowitz is a proper novelist.
People complain about P&W, but if they'd put plots like 'Bond is afraid of his old school bully' or 'A cult of baddies devoted to numbers' in a Bond film they really wouldn't have lasted more than one film.
Don't forget Dana Stevens' contribution to the TWINE script also. You seem to have when you said the plot was sloppy: was that Stevens and Feirstein?
Horowitz is a genius, both in terms of literary style and storytelling (With a mind to kill is a masterpiece to me). However, I like Benson. I think he's a far better storyteller than Gardner, and, to respond to your allusions to High time to kill and The facts of death, I really enjoy his work. It's another kind of fantasy indeed, but his ability to create tension is something I appreciate. His only novel I consider as a complete failure is Never dream of dying. For the rest, I think it's a good mix between Fleming's character and the modern era.
The thing is the parts that have been written by P&W are much more sloppy than what Feirstein and Stevens did. There's a massive document made by a french fan. If you're interested in the screenwriting of the films (including NSNA), it gives many details about the various versions of the scripts.
Do you know where I can see that?
I think he's referring to this. I have a copy, but it is a very long document. It is, however, free to view.
Yes I am ! Thank you.
By that time Tracy's death was 30 years ago. Brosnan would have been 16. It would have raised awkward questions; there's only the merest hint of it when Bond ducks Elektra's question about losing someone.
Controversial opinion: the Craig run of films is great. I even like the definitive ending of NTTD as it closes the loop on Craig's run and separates it as its own thing. I know I'm in the minority there but I don't care. Craig has 3 excellent films and 2 that are OK/passable.
I definitely prefer the Craig run to the Dalton or Brosnan runs. Roger is still my guy overall with Sean a close second, but Craig is third.
I’m not sure you are in the minority there 🤔
Well, let's just say that the people who hate the ending of NTTD are extremely vocal and love to pound the table about their opinion. And hey, that's fine...it'd be a boring world if we all liked the same things. We can coexist.
Sorry, Harry, I couldn't hear for the sound of someone pounding the table there. Oh, wait, that was me. 🤫
The misery quota of Craig's films makes them hard for me to revisit, for me to feel better about them it would help if they peaked in something clever, emotionally gripping and marvellous but that never happened imo. That said, I didn't like them too much at the time. A few minutes of TND is more cheering, it's like a happy Bond film in comparison though at the time the Brosnan years weren'tt so good, it's been diminishing returns sadly.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I can totally understand why some fans feel that spectre ruined craigs previous movies because Imagine how silly it would have been if Trevelyan revealed in GE that he was the puppet master behind Brad Whittaker, Koskov and Franz Sanchez? That's the exact equivalent of what happened in spectre
I'll be the first to admit that QOS and SP are not great movies. I won't re-litigate them as they've been discussed ad nauseum in countless other threads. My thing is that they're WELL MADE films. Editing issues aside in QOS, all of the films are first class productions with excellent production values, quality acting, quality directing and cinematography, good-to-great musical scores, solid action sequences, and lots of other elements to make them up to current expectations and standards for contemporary movie going audiences.
If I were to single out one thing in particular that's great about the Craig run, it'd be the acting quality. That focus on quality has been largely absent from the series prior to the Craig films. Almost all of the films from DN through DAD have had some incredibly cack acting in them, some so egregious (I'm looking at you, DAD, LTK and AVTAK) that the films never manage to fully recover.
The good acting thing is a funny one. For sure there has been some questionable performances over the years (I'm not going to name names). But ultimately, I would prefer a good film with some mediocre acting to a mediocre film with terrific acting.
I'm not talking mediocre acting, I'm talking outright BAD acting. Bad acting takes me out of a film, especially pervasive bad acting. LTK and AVTAK are probably the worst offenders there. I'm baffled that John Glen didn't ask for another take in many instances. Some of the line readings that made the final cut were probably in there because there were no other takes to choose from.
As to QOS and SP, they may be mediocre but they're at least watchable and engrossing enough that I can get lost in the films while viewing them. There's no 'I love James SO MUCH' line reading in there to make me turn up my nose an pull me out of the film. I know that LTK has its fans in here but I'm definitely not one of them.
To each their own, though. The world is a big place and we can peacefully coexist.
This is the thing though…there is seldom right or wrong* - just differing opinions…QoS easily sits in my top 4, the only quibble is that it would have been even better with a further rewrite and an extra 15 or 20 mins added…
I agree that the quality of actor has certainly been consistently better throughout the DC films…
With 26 films, there is definitely something for everyone 🍸
*apart from certain people claiming AWTD isn’t one of the best theme tunes 🫢😬
It's one of the best theme tunes in QoS.
It's really the editing that kills QOS for me, not even the script (or lack thereof). The film is just so tightly edited that a lot of the action is simply incoherent. Some of it works (I enjoy the frenetic nature of the opening car chase) but a lot of it is so tightly framed and over-edited that you simply can't discern the action.
I think the editing is dodgy in places, but the direction is also a bit off here and there too- stuff like the gags with Elvis kind of don't even make much sense, something is being lost there. One of the jokes with him is literally only a couple of frames.
I am coming around to QoS, the story is actually pretty good (everyone thinks Bond has gone rogue when he hasn't at all) and it has a lot of good running themes through it, including handling the concept of revenge much better than FYEO ever did. Or LTK probably: it has more to say on the subject than that film did.
I know what you mean about the pleasing frenetic quality of the opening car chase, but it's a weird decision to start the film so cold, and I think it kind of pushes the viewer out of the experience a bit. Either it needed a bit of space before it starts, or maybe the film would be better without it, and have the titles start on Bond shooting Mitchell.
I know we've covered the QOS editing in other threads, but for me, that opening sequence works. Not only does it work, it works beautifully. It's jarring...it's kinetic...it's deliberately chaotic to set up a sense of real danger, and that works for me. Once they leave the tunnel, the frame opens up to allow the user to have a better sense of the overall geography of the sequence and it becomes easier to follow, and it all flows pretty nicely from there.
Unfortunately, that's the only sequence in the film where that editing really works. The deliberately tight framing of the shots along with the frenetic editing prevents the other sequences from having a clear flow to them. The geography is unclear, the action is unclear. It's flashing images, often without clear context.
It's a shame because QOS is honestly a really beautiful film to admire. Many of the shots are beautifully composed and interesting to look at. Also in the film's favor: the acting is first rate from everyone. Indeed, I kinda think that the acting in QOS may be the best in the entire Craig run of films. Maybe it's the fact that they were improvising elements of the script, but there's a real visceral sense of urgency and 'thinking on the spot' to the acting that makes it all come alive for me.
At least that’s a start 😬🤣
I’ve never had an issue with the editing…in fact, it’s the frenetic editing that drives the film along…for me anyway. I think the fight with Slate is brilliantly filmed…but, as I’ve said - the film could do with a further rewrite and extra running time…but the shorter running time doesn’t harm it…