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Re: The brutality of QOS

Thunderpussy wrote:

When my daughters were very young and it was my time to read Bedtime stories, I'd do an Abridged version of one of my favourites.OHMSS or Goldfinger.  ajb007/cool  Hasn't helped as they have no interest In the Bond films  ajb007/crap


Could have been an abridged too far ? ajb007/rolleyes

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Re: The brutality of QOS

Thunderpussy wrote:

When my daughters were very young and it was my time to read Bedtime stories, I'd do an Abridged version of one of my favourites.OHMSS or Goldfinger.  ajb007/cool  Hasn't helped as they have no interest In the Bond films  ajb007/crap

"... and after Tracy got a teeny-weeny bullet in her head, James lived happily ever after ... so, it's late, sweetheart. Sleep well!"

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Re: The brutality of QOS

well I did make them a Little bit more Child friendly, I ended with them getting Married and living happily ever after.  ajb007/lol

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: The brutality of QOS

Lexi wrote:
Napoleon Plural wrote:

Yeah, they do need to sort Craig's wit out, I don't think he should do one liners as such, but it should have some lightness. Problem is, Craig is so based in realism in his performance, it doesn't work to have him do a one-liner, cos lets face it, no one does that in real life, makes little quips to themselves. A bit of sarcy one-upmanship with villains, like ironically dialogue in Pulp Fiction, I can see Craig doing. His best one-liner is in Layer Cake when the Serb hitman calls him up and he seems about to invite him round for coffee. Worth checking out.

The shared joke with the audience is what Connery, Moore, Brosnan all did, what Lazenby tried to do (but failed). Craig doesn't seem to want to do that, he seems shy and doesn't seem to know how to anyway. He's dead keen to keep his own persona out of the role, so he seems to be shutting us out. H Ford mind you, always v private but knew how to register that certain something with the audience.

Great post Nap, and I do see what you mean. It's like there is a limited amount of scope when Craig is making a one liner to himself... (which is what he does...) rather than his predecessors, who somehow managed to be speaking to US, without making it obvious. It's very subtle - but does change the dynamic

It's almost like Craig hasn't got the confidence... but I can't quite believe that. Perhaps he’s trying not to be like the others?

As for the Layer Cake reference, GREAT scene. One of my favourites.

CR suggested how it could be done. That sly look when he (Bond) knows that the other guy has the detonator clipped to his belt and is about to go Booom ! Or the lovely moment when Bond is mistaken for a Valet and makes the man pay for his mistake. DC pulls this sort of play off very well, and that sense of playful badness is pure Connery/Bond. if they play up the rebellious element it could work. Lots of precedent for it from Connerry setting off the alarm at Shrublands just for the he'll of it, to Brosnan needlessly damaging expensive kit in TND, or Lazenby stealing the centre-fold in OHMSS.

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Re: The brutality of QOS

Though I know we reference the actors having the ability to deliver the quips, it's definitely up to the writers to deliver first.  All the bad puns in the films are their faults - not the actors having to choke on them.  They also don't need to come after every death in the future films - just a few would be fine.  A humorous action is just as sufficient at times - Connery in Thunderball pausing to pick a grape off the fruit as he sneeks out of a room , for example.  I thought the mistaken valet scene in CR with Craig bashing the car and creating the alarm distraction was well done, because not only did it show Bond's sardonic sense of humor, it also showed his quick thinking - that he could use the action to aid in his plan to sneak into the Security room.  The follow up with him greeting that arrogant owner of the car with the wry smile and "Guten abend" as he walked away was the type of humor Craig does well and the writers need to keep in the future films.

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Re: The brutality of QOS

Sadly, last two posts nail it. The humour in both those cases is an extension of Craig's slightly cagey, self-satisfied. thuggish demeanour, the way he is in real life.  ajb007/takecover

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017

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Re: The brutality of QOS

To me the humor is there. It's not in your face, but there's just a touch here and there. I'm not looking for what came to be the classic Bond film humor though. I prefer the subtlety and overall restraint.

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Re: The brutality of QOS

I thought Fields was elegant and fun to have in there.

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Re: The brutality of QOS

77007 wrote:

To me the humor is there. It's not in your face, but there's just a touch here and there. I'm not looking for what came to be the classic Bond film humor though. I prefer the subtlety and overall restraint.

I'm with you...I don't want a return to the Moore era of comedy (great though it was/is)...Dalton just about got away with the cheesy lines they gave him....and even Brosnan suffered with some stinkers - which even he admitted too...

Daniel has had some good lines...and IMO his films so far have struck the right balance.. ajb007/martini

YNWA: Justice For The 96

A spectre of my mortal soul

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Re: The brutality of QOS

It has been suggested from various corners by whoever at any given time that Craig seemed out of place right from the off, theaters were introduced to some actor who seemed better prepared to be working for WWE wrestling and they found an issue with the hair color

You know how it is, someone finds something about a new release they disagree with, Bond has always been dark haired from 1962-2006, this new chap was something new and the physique seemed a bit out of place.

BUT- Craig was OK in the first film if you take the above out of the equation, he was the epitome of action and certainly was an agent you felt could rely on, even if he did break into M'S residence early on, I wouldn't have liked to have gone up against him

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Re: The brutality of QOS

Loeffelholz wrote:

  But what I saw on Craig's face wasn't indifference, or boredom---it was, primarily, concern about getting it over with---and a hint of pity behind an outward mask of indifference, which speaks to the layers of Bond's evolving character.  Some might well say I'm all wet on this, and fair enough, but that's what I saw.  And the scene does also go to the heart of Bond's licence to kill.  All the same, I can see the point of those who'd rather get back to escapism   ajb007/martini

I know I'm replying to an ancient post, here, but I can't help but describe what I saw in that scene. To me, it was aversion. He was looking away from the dastardly deed he was performing. He wasn't bored, or preoccupied, but simply averting his eyes to the scene beneath his hands - the brutal killing of a man. He didn't want to look at it, and instead looked up and away.

That's what I got out of it. And it didn't seem out of the Fleming character, if you ask me. In the opening passages to Goldfinger, Bond is haranguing himself over his hand-to-hand-killing of a nameless Mexican street-hit-man.  Bond's not an emotionless robot - he's a man; a tough, ruthless, man; but he is affected by what he does.

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Re: The brutality of QOS

SpectreBlofeld wrote:
Loeffelholz wrote:

  But what I saw on Craig's face wasn't indifference, or boredom---it was, primarily, concern about getting it over with---and a hint of pity behind an outward mask of indifference, which speaks to the layers of Bond's evolving character.  Some might well say I'm all wet on this, and fair enough, but that's what I saw.  And the scene does also go to the heart of Bond's licence to kill.  All the same, I can see the point of those who'd rather get back to escapism   ajb007/martini

I know I'm replying to an ancient post, here, but I can't help but describe what I saw in that scene. To me, it was aversion. He was looking away from the dastardly deed he was performing. He wasn't bored, or preoccupied, but simply averting his eyes to the scene beneath his hands - the brutal killing of a man. He didn't want to look at it, and instead looked up and away.

That's what I got out of it. And it didn't seem out of the Fleming character, if you ask me. In the opening passages to Goldfinger, Bond is haranguing himself over his hand-to-hand-killing of a nameless Mexican street-hit-man.  Bond's not an emotionless robot - he's a man; a tough, ruthless, man; but he is affected by what he does.

I think you nailed it there...spot on.

YNWA: Justice For The 96

A spectre of my mortal soul

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Re: The brutality of QOS

Yep. I'd say largely to it's own fault QoS is the most misunderstood/misinterpreted Bond film ever. Everything isn't quite laid out in front of the audience. Leaving room for interpretation, and making the viewer put the pieces together.  Hence the love hate between people that can enjoy the change and those that have no use for that in a Bond film. Add the dizzy shaky cam that upsets some peoples eyes and stomachs and QOS gets shunned.

QoS isn't perfect, and like the 21 Bonds before it, could've used some rewrites here and there. I like it alot myself and it sits well inside my top 10.

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Re: The brutality of QOS

77007 wrote:

Yep. I'd say largely to it's own fault QoS is the most misunderstood/misinterpreted Bond film ever. Everything isn't quite laid out in front of the audience. Leaving room for interpretation, and making the viewer put the pieces together.  Hence the love hate between people that can enjoy the change and those that have no use for that in a Bond film. Add the dizzy shaky cam that upsets some peoples eyes and stomachs and QOS gets shunned.

QoS isn't perfect, and like the 21 Bonds before it, could've used some rewrites here and there. I like it alot myself and it sits well inside my top 10.

great post...i agree.

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Re: The brutality of QOS

77007 wrote:

Yep. I'd say largely to it's own fault QoS is the most misunderstood/misinterpreted Bond film ever. Everything isn't quite laid out in front of the audience. Leaving room for interpretation, and making the viewer put the pieces together.  Hence the love hate between people that can enjoy the change and those that have no use for that in a Bond film. Add the dizzy shaky cam that upsets some peoples eyes and stomachs and QOS gets shunned.

QoS isn't perfect, and like the 21 Bonds before it, could've used some rewrites here and there. I like it alot myself and it sits well inside my top 10.

I always slightly resent the veiled assertion that those of us who dislike QOS are somehow just not up to the job of dealing with it's sublety and nuance.

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Re: The brutality of QOS

"I'm with you all the way" zaphod  ajb007/martini,
Only the  those truly chosen can Truly see, the rest of us just have to muddle through.  ajb007/lol
Because we're all as thick as S**t. ajb007/lol apparently ajb007/rolleyes
Luckily we have many enlightened members who'll stear us right. ajb007/shifty
It somehow smacks in the face of what's now coming out from those involved in QOS. Craig says there was trouble with the script, Marc forster has said the way it turned out, It wasn't the film he wanted. Yet, without even trying they ( To Some, at least )
have made a Masterpiece, Go figure.
Mabey for Bond 23 they should try and get a Bad script, an Arty Director, a camera man with epilepsy ( juding from the camera work ) mix in a few missing "insert" shots and stand by for another "Masterpiece" ajb007/lol, which will have to be explained to us "less Informed on the aspects of Film story telling", sublety and nuance is lost on us. ajb007/lol.
Oh, I'm so upset I'm off to watch Rocky IV, and see if I can work out all the subtle nuances in Mr Stallone's performance. ajb007/biggrin

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: The brutality of QOS

Haha. Why so defensive you two. I didn't say you couldn't grasp it. I said some don't want it in a Bond film. Clearly two different things. Don't be so hard on yourselves.

And also rewrites should be called for Bonds 1-21 as well. It's not a big deal unless it's an entry you hate. Then omg what a mess, how could they let that happen?

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Re: The brutality of QOS

No problem, 77007. ajb007/biggrin, It's all just a bit of fun. ajb007/lol
Some like QOS and some Don't.  ajb007/martini
Now back to Mr Stallone's Marvelous Preformance.  ajb007/biggrin

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: The brutality of QOS

Thunderpussy wrote:

No problem, 77007. ajb007/biggrin, It's all just a bit of fun. ajb007/lol
Some like QOS and some Don't.  ajb007/martini
Now back to Mr Stallone's Marvelous Preformance.  ajb007/biggrin

Go to a Rocky forum and you'll find that exact discussion. Guaranteed.

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Re: The brutality of QOS

zaphod wrote:

I always slightly resent the veiled assertion that those of us who dislike QOS are somehow just not up to the job of dealing with it's sublety and nuance.

Amen to that Z ajb007/martini . You can have the most nuanced film in the world AND if it is a weak film, it's a weak film. There were some things about QOS I liked. I think the whole Tosca scene will go down as a classic Bond scene for years to come. I also like Bond being skunked on the plane. But imho not only is the main villain WEAK, but so are his henchman. ajb007/lol ( Elvis, really )

I also thought Foster made Olga look about as unsexy as possible, and she is a knockout. How could he make her so unglamorous. ajb007/cool  As for the editing, well, lets just hope we DON"T have a repeat of that crap in anymore films. Some of the fast cutting could have worked, BUT it was just TOOOOOO damn much.  ajb007/crap

All in all I thought it was quite a letdown after a film as GOOD as CR
Cheers fellow Bond geeks, only another year till we get to dissected a new Bond film
ajb007/cheers   ajb007/cheers   ajb007/cheers  While we wait have a pint on me  ajb007/biggrin

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Re: The brutality of QOS

zaphod wrote:

I always slightly resent the veiled assertion that those of us who dislike QOS are somehow just not up to the job of dealing with it's sublety and nuance.

I'm not sure it's been put exactly like that...but similar...

I've posted before that people whom don't like QoS may not 'get' the subtlety....not that they don't understand it...it's all about personal choice and how you are made up as an individual...not that those people 'lack' anything...it's just how you, as an individual, enjoy/process certain films...there is a difference ajb007/martini

No doubt there are films that those people like that I don't, and films we would both enjoy equally...sometimes the subtlelty will be lost on me...it's not a personal slight at all...

YNWA: Justice For The 96

A spectre of my mortal soul

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Re: The brutality of QOS

I could imagine Craig's 'aversion' in a film like The Wild Geese but imo QoS needed more of that as well as a French Connection type vibe, actually that might have been what they were aiming at in some respects, but it had too many nods to previous Bond films, it was still too cute and not quite raw or credible enough to make that scene work imo, it's a tad out of context and gets misread.

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017