Where do I ask for this thread to be stickied? It is of great interest to both military historians & Bond fans alike, the latter by virtue of the fascinating gadgets which must have been an inspiration to IF.
You could ask any MOD to do this....
YNWA 97
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,483MI6 Agent
Thank you gentlemen.
Here's a bit more info on the carrier pigeon message capsule, I posted earlier. You'd think it was pretty boring and unimportant, but the truth is far more interesting.
They were used widely during both wars, especially during WWI of course. During WWII, they were still very important. SOE had pigeons dropped into occupied Europe in cardboard carriers much like our agents.... by parachute. Our drop planes had special chutes adapted for them in the bomb bays. These reinforced cardboard carriers were thrust down the chute and the static line would open soon after it left the plane. The Nazi's used to use the captured pigeons to send false messages back, sometimes to confuse our intelligence by supplying bogus information. In reality, the Axis troops used to send far more rude messages back telling us to go screw ourselves etc, but the majority of captured pigeons were eaten by cunning troops thinking of their stomachs more than their duty.
These lighter message tubes were made specifically for SOE and Marquis forces to put information in and send back to the UK, and were made more comfortable and lighter than the standard aluminium versions used previously. All SOE agents were given full training in pigeon handling. Many women tried to sneak to the back of the queue to avoid this, but it was a necessary skill, so they had to get over their fears. Pigeons were an incredibly important intelligence courier service. It was down to their importance that hawks and falcons were shot almost to extinction during the two great wars, as they were a greater threat to our intelligence gathering than the Nazi's were. Even now seventy five years later their numbers are only just recovering in some species. The pigeons thrive on, and many of their descendants can be seen in most towns and cities in the UK.
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Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,483MI6 Agent
The carrier pigeon was indeed a very important part of the war effort. Anyone remember the story of the remains of one which was found up a chimney a while ago? I think they handed the message to GCHQ who couldn't crack it!
Also I believe more Dikin medals were awarded to pigeons than any other animal.
You know your stuff, that's for sure. Animals were hugely important to our success. I remember a SOE agent operating in Burma recounting his experiences. The local Karen people were requesting a 'war dog' as they could pick up an odd scent from several miles away. In fact, even long term SOE operatives living in the jungle could tell when a Japanese soldier relieved himself some miles away as their senses were enhanced through long term acclimatisation (something I experienced myself in Venezuela when on exped). Anyway, we acknowledged the Karen request and along with an ammunition supply, sent a young Alsation bitch down the chute in a cardboard cage to assist in their efforts. The static line failed to open the parachute. I hate to think what that dog experienced tumbling in a box several hundred feet into the earth as it had no control of its fate. Many people ignore the suffering of animals, but we're all part of the same eco system, and at least when we jump from planes, we comprehend whats happening.
If Pigeons interest you, you should try to find out as much as possible about Flight Lieutenant Richard Melville Walker and his "The Pigeon Service Special Section, B3C". Same unit also deployed falcons to take down any german spy pigeons.
"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,483MI6 Agent
Here's a little gem and a favourite in my collection. MKII British Sten gun with SOE grip. SOE used this hand grip as the gun could be more easily concealed. This can be taken off quickly and the barrel unscrewed, leaving three parts, well, four including the mag. Broken down the mag was the longest part and a broken down Sten could easily be concealed in pockets or even a hand bag. Not only did SOE use these, but also Flemings 30 AU and various Commando Units. Fleming himself fired many a Sten on the range.
We dropped the standard T-Stock and Skeleton Stock versions to Resistance groups throughout the world, and from the MK II onwards they were in fact excellent and accurate weapons. The stories about them jamming were mainly due to incorrect handling as untrained shooters would use the magazine as a handle instead of the barrel grip. Stens were famously manufactured in many toy factories throughout Britain, the parts were also farmed out to hundreds of factories for production, so bombed factories wouldn't damage rate of production that was desperately needed during those years.
Continuing on from this post, I was lucky enough today to secure a silenced MKII Sten. It's well documented that Fleming experienced shooting one of these as he commented on how impressed he was by the noise reduction in one of his letters to Boothroyd when discussing silencers. I've been after one of these for a while as an old spec deac, so it's a great coincidence that my patience paid off after posting this.
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Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,497Chief of Staff
Nice piece....lucky you -{
YNWA 97
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,668MI6 Agent
Great to see that this excellent thread has been made a Sticky. -{
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
Stenguns were produced by the resistance in occupied Norway. The different parts were produced on seperate locations and most workers didn't know what they were making. Only obvious parts like the barrel had to be produced in absolute secret. I believe stenguns were produced in other occupied contries too.
I have to admit, target shooting looks fun.
Couple of nice videos Stag. -{
One day I want to visit that indoor gun range in Las Vegas where you can fire practically any gun you can imagine. Remarkably, my wife fancies doing it too!
Stenguns were produced by the resistance in occupied Norway. The different parts were produced on seperate locations and most workers didn't know what they were making. Only obvious parts like the barrel had to be produced in absolute secret. I believe stenguns were produced in other occupied contries too.
Yes, Finland, Denmark, Poland, Norway and even Germany made copies of the Sten from scratch from reversed engineered MK II's. Norway, Finland and Denmark also made copies of the MKV. Obviously most came from Britain, and Canada made them too. These were dropped in their thousands to various resistance movements.
I think it was a Sterling that my Action Man had, with the shoulder stock. Alas, I lost - or swallowed - the magazine almost as soon as I got the figure but that didn't stop him from shooting everything that moved (in my mind, at least).
Yes, Finland... made copies of the Sten from scratch from reversed engineered MK II's. .... Finland...also made copies of the MKV...
You wouldn't happen to have a source reference for this one, would you? It would be greatly appreciated.
So far I have only been aware of Polish, German and French copies. In Finland (AFAIK) Sten was in service only as the MKIII that was purchased from Interarms after the war, in the '50s. Some 75000 guns were bought and refurbished and entered the service as 9.00 kp Sten II and 9.00 kp Sten III. Sten II and Sten III had different butstocks, but were otherwise the same weapon.
The only copied subgun that was manufactured in Finlan during ww2 was M-44 "Peltiheikki", which was a 9mm.pb copy of a Russian PPS43.
"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech
Stenguns were produced by the resistance in occupied Norway. The different parts were produced on seperate locations and most workers didn't know what they were making. Only obvious parts like the barrel had to be produced in absolute secret. I believe stenguns were produced in other occupied contries too.
Yes, Finland, Denmark, Poland, Norway and even Germany made copies of the Sten from scratch from reversed engineered MK II's. Norway, Finland and Denmark also made copies of the MKV. Obviously most came from Britain, and Canada made them too. These were dropped in their thousands to various resistance movements.
I assume the German stens were not secretly made by the resistance, like they were in some occupied countries? I knew Germany used captured Stenguns. Otto Scorzeny (Commander of SS special forces) used a suppressed Stengun.
Part of Stengun made secretly in occupied Norway
German SS-soldiers with Stenguns
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,483MI6 Agent
Yes, Finland... made copies of the Sten from scratch from reversed engineered MK II's. .... Finland...also made copies of the MKV...
You wouldn't happen to have a source reference for this one, would you? It would be greatly appreciated.
I know Finland made MKV's for sure, probably not MK IIs though. The IWM has two and I used to have one in my collection years back. I didn't know it was a Finland copy back then, as I thought it was something much rarer. It was confirmed later by the IWM and the owner of the worlds largest SOE collection that it was a Finnish copy made possibly after the war. In retrospect I should have kept it, but my collection is period specific.
You listed Germany as one of the countries that produced the Stengun. Was that the nazi regime making copies or (less likely) the underground resistance making them illegally?
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,483MI6 Agent
You listed Germany as one of the countries that produced the Stengun. Was that the nazi regime making copies or (less likely) the underground resistance making them illegally?
It was the Nazi's.
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Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,483MI6 Agent
Thanks. I I seem to remember the Norwegian Sten was slightly different from the proper Stenguns. I think the safety was on the other side, among other things.
I know Finland made MKV's for sure, probably not MK IIs though. The IWM has two and I used to have one in my collection years back. I didn't know it was a Finland copy back then, as I thought it was something much rarer. It was confirmed later by the IWM and the owner of the worlds largest SOE collection that it was a Finnish copy made possibly after the war. In retrospect I should have kept it, but my collection is period specific.
It is rare indeed: Here is a copy of a research made about arms manufacture in Finland from 1938 to 1945: file:///C:/Users/Omistaja/Downloads/47703-36409-1-PB.pdf
On the page 181 you'll find a table about small arms. It is in Finnish so I'll provide you with relevant translations:
ARMS MANUFACTURE IN FINLAND IN DURATION OF OUR WARS
1938 1939 1940 1941- 1942 1943 1944 1945 All. Attn.
1. 7,62-20 mm weapons
1.1. Kiv m/39 ................ 16000 12000 37646 18183 6500 90329 (rifle m39)
1.2. L-S pk/26 .............•. 3740 90 11 500 4341 (Lahti-Saloranta LMG)
1.3.7,62 kk/09-30 .......... 425 395 46 15 881 (Machine Gun/09-30 similar to British Vickers)
1.4. Yleiskk "Sampo" ..... 35 35 (LMG)
1.5. 9,00 kp/31 ja 44• ...... 5617 1979 4675 15512 17003 18865 15865 1 101 73900 10 398• (Suomi and Peltiheikki* Sub guns)
1.6. 9,00 L-35 pisto ......... 99 1593 1610 544 10 891 866 5613 (Lahti L-35 pistol)
1. 7. 20 p~tkiv /39 ............ 2 410 496 1000 170 2078 (20mm antitank rifle ”the Elephant Gun”)
There is no mention of Sten manufacture during the war in any of the documents that I have seen, so I'm curious about the source of this info. I don't doubt you, but I do have some reservations about IWM or their source for this, since Finnish war archives have no info on Stens prior 1950.
"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech
As far as I know finnlan only used Th Suomi SMG during the Winter War an WW2. The Suomi is regarded by many as the best SMG in WWII, regardlessof the theatre. After WWII many countries used the Suomi, including Norwegian special forces.
Comments
You could ask any MOD to do this....
Here's a bit more info on the carrier pigeon message capsule, I posted earlier. You'd think it was pretty boring and unimportant, but the truth is far more interesting.
They were used widely during both wars, especially during WWI of course. During WWII, they were still very important. SOE had pigeons dropped into occupied Europe in cardboard carriers much like our agents.... by parachute. Our drop planes had special chutes adapted for them in the bomb bays. These reinforced cardboard carriers were thrust down the chute and the static line would open soon after it left the plane. The Nazi's used to use the captured pigeons to send false messages back, sometimes to confuse our intelligence by supplying bogus information. In reality, the Axis troops used to send far more rude messages back telling us to go screw ourselves etc, but the majority of captured pigeons were eaten by cunning troops thinking of their stomachs more than their duty.
These lighter message tubes were made specifically for SOE and Marquis forces to put information in and send back to the UK, and were made more comfortable and lighter than the standard aluminium versions used previously. All SOE agents were given full training in pigeon handling. Many women tried to sneak to the back of the queue to avoid this, but it was a necessary skill, so they had to get over their fears. Pigeons were an incredibly important intelligence courier service. It was down to their importance that hawks and falcons were shot almost to extinction during the two great wars, as they were a greater threat to our intelligence gathering than the Nazi's were. Even now seventy five years later their numbers are only just recovering in some species. The pigeons thrive on, and many of their descendants can be seen in most towns and cities in the UK.
You know your stuff, that's for sure. Animals were hugely important to our success. I remember a SOE agent operating in Burma recounting his experiences. The local Karen people were requesting a 'war dog' as they could pick up an odd scent from several miles away. In fact, even long term SOE operatives living in the jungle could tell when a Japanese soldier relieved himself some miles away as their senses were enhanced through long term acclimatisation (something I experienced myself in Venezuela when on exped). Anyway, we acknowledged the Karen request and along with an ammunition supply, sent a young Alsation bitch down the chute in a cardboard cage to assist in their efforts. The static line failed to open the parachute. I hate to think what that dog experienced tumbling in a box several hundred feet into the earth as it had no control of its fate. Many people ignore the suffering of animals, but we're all part of the same eco system, and at least when we jump from planes, we comprehend whats happening.
-Mr Arlington Beech
Continuing on from this post, I was lucky enough today to secure a silenced MKII Sten. It's well documented that Fleming experienced shooting one of these as he commented on how impressed he was by the noise reduction in one of his letters to Boothroyd when discussing silencers. I've been after one of these for a while as an old spec deac, so it's a great coincidence that my patience paid off after posting this.
Couple of nice videos Stag. -{
One day I want to visit that indoor gun range in Las Vegas where you can fire practically any gun you can imagine. Remarkably, my wife fancies doing it too!
Yes, Finland, Denmark, Poland, Norway and even Germany made copies of the Sten from scratch from reversed engineered MK II's. Norway, Finland and Denmark also made copies of the MKV. Obviously most came from Britain, and Canada made them too. These were dropped in their thousands to various resistance movements.
Or a similar gun. ?
That's a Sterling. A great SMG that we used for many years.
Also used by Stormtroopers with a bit of T track and greeblies added.
You wouldn't happen to have a source reference for this one, would you? It would be greatly appreciated.
So far I have only been aware of Polish, German and French copies. In Finland (AFAIK) Sten was in service only as the MKIII that was purchased from Interarms after the war, in the '50s. Some 75000 guns were bought and refurbished and entered the service as 9.00 kp Sten II and 9.00 kp Sten III. Sten II and Sten III had different butstocks, but were otherwise the same weapon.
The only copied subgun that was manufactured in Finlan during ww2 was M-44 "Peltiheikki", which was a 9mm.pb copy of a Russian PPS43.
-Mr Arlington Beech
I assume the German stens were not secretly made by the resistance, like they were in some occupied countries? I knew Germany used captured Stenguns. Otto Scorzeny (Commander of SS special forces) used a suppressed Stengun.
Part of Stengun made secretly in occupied Norway
German SS-soldiers with Stenguns
I know Finland made MKV's for sure, probably not MK IIs though. The IWM has two and I used to have one in my collection years back. I didn't know it was a Finland copy back then, as I thought it was something much rarer. It was confirmed later by the IWM and the owner of the worlds largest SOE collection that it was a Finnish copy made possibly after the war. In retrospect I should have kept it, but my collection is period specific.
It was the Nazi's.
It's a copy of the MK V they have there.
It is rare indeed: Here is a copy of a research made about arms manufacture in Finland from 1938 to 1945: file:///C:/Users/Omistaja/Downloads/47703-36409-1-PB.pdf
On the page 181 you'll find a table about small arms. It is in Finnish so I'll provide you with relevant translations:
ARMS MANUFACTURE IN FINLAND IN DURATION OF OUR WARS
1938 1939 1940 1941- 1942 1943 1944 1945 All. Attn.
1. 7,62-20 mm weapons
1.1. Kiv m/39 ................ 16000 12000 37646 18183 6500 90329 (rifle m39)
1.2. L-S pk/26 .............•. 3740 90 11 500 4341 (Lahti-Saloranta LMG)
1.3.7,62 kk/09-30 .......... 425 395 46 15 881 (Machine Gun/09-30 similar to British Vickers)
1.4. Yleiskk "Sampo" ..... 35 35 (LMG)
1.5. 9,00 kp/31 ja 44• ...... 5617 1979 4675 15512 17003 18865 15865 1 101 73900 10 398• (Suomi and Peltiheikki* Sub guns)
1.6. 9,00 L-35 pisto ......... 99 1593 1610 544 10 891 866 5613 (Lahti L-35 pistol)
1. 7. 20 p~tkiv /39 ............ 2 410 496 1000 170 2078 (20mm antitank rifle ”the Elephant Gun”)
There is no mention of Sten manufacture during the war in any of the documents that I have seen, so I'm curious about the source of this info. I don't doubt you, but I do have some reservations about IWM or their source for this, since Finnish war archives have no info on Stens prior 1950.
-Mr Arlington Beech