1 Topic by Jarvio

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Topic: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

I hear many people saying that SP is the most "by the numbers" bond film DC has done. To me, this couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, I think it might be the least by the numbers bond film, out of the entire series.

To me, a "by the numbers" bond film is basically:

- The feel of what I like to call an "episodic romp", which is basically how I feel about the first 15 bond films
- Minimum level of personal stuff
- Little character development for the supporting characters like Q, M, Moneypenny
- Bond just sent on missions, getting with the girl at the end
- Little focus on MI6 itself


So let's look at SP...

FULL of personal storylines - bond's parents references, the blofeld foster brother storyline. Bond going rogue. Big role for M, nineyes plot. Returning character commiting suicide and his daughter getting with bond. Bond retiring at the end. There is absolutely bugger all "by the numbers" about SP, a remark that I have never understood.

To me, none of the bond films have been "by the numbers" since LTK. Although LTK still felt episodic like the rest somehow.

The Brosnan era, on a whole, were almost by the numbers, although from this point onwards, M had a big role - her introduction in GE, the admiral in TND telling her she didn't have the balls for the job, her big role in TWINE - from the Brosnan era onwards there seems to have been big character development for M, when prior to this, it was bond only. Having said this though, the Brosnan era still maintained an "episodic romp" format to some extent. But the DC films did not, and magnified the character-driven stuff introduced in the Brosnan era by 10x, and from that point on, the bond films were now psychological, character-driven thrillers, rather than the episodic romp feel that bond had been since 1962.

So yeah, none of the DC bond films were "by the numbers" at all, and that includes SP, and I'd even go as far to say that SP is the least by the numbers bond film of them. Anyone agree?

1 - Avtak, 2 - Op, 3 - Ltk, 4 - Lald, 5 - Fyeo, 6 - Ohmss, 7 - Sf, 8 - Dn, 9 - Ge, 10 - Daf, 11 - Tmwtgg, 12 - Tswlm, 13 - Mr, 14 - Tld, 15 - Yolt, 16 - Sp, 17 - Gf, 18 - Frwl, 19 - Dad, 20 - Qos, 21 - Tnd, 22 - Twine, 23 - Tb, 24 - Cr

1 - Moore, 2 - Dalton, 3 - Craig, 4 - Connery, 5 - Brosnan, 6 - Lazenby

2 Reply by Dirty Punker

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

Absolutely.
Everyone coming together in the final climax (not to mention everyone having risked their jobs for Bond), Q helping out Bond in the field (even though he hates travelling)...the list goes on.
That's why I love SPECTRE so much.

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3 Reply by caractacus potts

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

all good points
it may just be the return of elements like the gadget-ty car chase, the indestructible henchman, and the villains HQ
but as others have argued these elements are all underdeveloped, and the aspects you are pointing out are all more important to the completed film

LTK may seem episodic to you because it is the last film made that still involved the original generation of filmmakers
of the 4 Brosnans TND and DAD both recycled a lot of that epic swashbuckling stuff from the Gilbert films in particular, GE and tWiNE were more original
but all four of them involved unformulaic plottwists and personal angles which would have never have appeared in the original series of movies

4 Reply by BondJasonBond006

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

Dirty Punker wrote:

Absolutely.
Everyone coming together in the final climax (not to mention everyone having risked their jobs for Bond), Q helping out Bond in the field (even though he hates travelling)...the list goes on.
That's why I love SPECTRE so much.


Absolutely.
The Scooby Gang in SPECTRE is fantastic. I love every second of screen time of Q, MP and M, even Tanner  ajb007/lol

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5 Reply by Dirty Punker

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

BondJasonBond006 wrote:
Dirty Punker wrote:

Absolutely.
Everyone coming together in the final climax (not to mention everyone having risked their jobs for Bond), Q helping out Bond in the field (even though he hates travelling)...the list goes on.
That's why I love SPECTRE so much.


Absolutely.
The Scooby Gang in SPECTRE is fantastic. I love every second of screen time of Q, MP and M, even Tanner  ajb007/lol

The elusive 006 came out of the shadows.

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6 Reply by thesecretagent

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

Hated it. Warmed to it. Now actually quite like it.

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7 Reply by Gassy Man

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

Eh, take out the silliness about Bond and Blofeld being brothers, and it pretty much is a standard Bond film, with the exception that its actions sequences generally underwhelm.  It's certainly the closest thing Craig has made to one.

8 Reply by Joshua

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

I have not seen the spectre film yet. It will be on television soon i think.

9 Reply by Jarvio

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

Gassy Man wrote:

Eh, take out the silliness about Bond and Blofeld being brothers, and it pretty much is a standard Bond film, with the exception that its actions sequences generally underwhelm.  It's certainly the closest thing Craig has made to one.

I respectfully disagree, the nine-eyes plot and heavy MI6 focus is very prominent too.

Taking out the Blofeld brothers plot would certainly make it more standard, but you could say the same thing about the other 3 DC films in terms of taking out certain elements of them too. And even with that, nine-eyes remains.

I'm not sure what the most 'standard' Craig bond film is. Maybe QOS, but it is a very hard choice, because none of them are even close.

1 - Avtak, 2 - Op, 3 - Ltk, 4 - Lald, 5 - Fyeo, 6 - Ohmss, 7 - Sf, 8 - Dn, 9 - Ge, 10 - Daf, 11 - Tmwtgg, 12 - Tswlm, 13 - Mr, 14 - Tld, 15 - Yolt, 16 - Sp, 17 - Gf, 18 - Frwl, 19 - Dad, 20 - Qos, 21 - Tnd, 22 - Twine, 23 - Tb, 24 - Cr

1 - Moore, 2 - Dalton, 3 - Craig, 4 - Connery, 5 - Brosnan, 6 - Lazenby

10 Reply by Chriscoop

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

Jarvio wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:

Eh, take out the silliness about Bond and Blofeld being brothers, and it pretty much is a standard Bond film, with the exception that its actions sequences generally underwhelm.  It's certainly the closest thing Craig has made to one.

I respectfully disagree, the nine-eyes plot and heavy MI6 focus is very prominent too.

Taking out the Blofeld brothers plot would certainly make it more standard, but you could say the same thing about the other 3 DC films in terms of taking out certain elements of them too. And even with that, nine-eyes remains.

I'm not sure what the most 'standard' Craig bond film is. Maybe QOS, but it is a very hard choice, because none of them are even close.

I think CR is probably Dc's most standard film,  lots of locations it's relatively faithful to the book, we have gadgets,  dinner suits,  a casino a train and an Aston Martin. OK the gunbarrel and bond theme aside.
The problem with Spectre is that you simply can't think about it too much or else you get annoyed with the amount of questions you end up with,  it's only the score that makes most action scenes underwhelming.  Given that Spectre was mendes vision if Bond he missed the mark on a few things.  He should have stopped with sf inmho. For me there is still much to enjoy with Spectre and that's what I prefer to think about.  The bad bits such as the brother thing,  the Rome car chase ruined by the phonecall, bad use of locations,  plot holes I ignore as best I can and concentrate on the bits I like such as Bonds interaction with Q and tanner,  seeing bonds flat,  that db10,  hinx,  train fight,  the scenes in l'americain,  the scene with Lucia set to Cum Dederit etc there's lots to love.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

11 Reply by Dirty Punker

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

I've made peace with myself for the fact that we won't get a "standard" Bond film with Craig.
https://media.giphy.com/media/APe7cVE8pj3XO/giphy.gif
It's just the way it is and TBH, I don't mind it. All of the Bond films are excellent in some way and Craig's era is no exception.
SPECTRE is an excellent Bond movie and good enough to even stand on its own as a good movie.
There are some people here who stick to one or two aspects and leech off of those to b*tch and moan about the movie.
Then again, its their opinion and I'm not the boss of you, so...

Last edited by Dirty Punker (7th Aug 2017 12:17)

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I have a YouTube channel on all things Bond (amongst other things, coming soon™).
The name's Bond and Beyond. It's currently on hold, though.

12 Reply by Barbel

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

Dirty Punker wrote:

a "standard" Bond film
https://media.giphy.com/media/APe7cVE8pj3XO/giphy.gif

IMHO, the one that comes closest to that description is

https://s2.postimg.cc/hz7rafg1x/AA_OLD_MAN_3.jpg

(and that isn't a criticism of it).

13 Reply by Dirty Punker

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

Barbel wrote:
Dirty Punker wrote:

a "standard" Bond film
https://media.giphy.com/media/APe7cVE8pj3XO/giphy.gif

IMHO, the one that comes closest to that description is

https://s2.postimg.cc/hz7rafg1x/AA_OLD_MAN_3.jpg

(and that isn't a criticism of it).

Yes (and I love TND, excellent movie) but I wouldn't want a series full of TNDs (even if it wouldn't be bad).
"Variety is the spice of life"* and keeps things a bit fresh and interesting. Imagine how boring it would be if we didn't have people b*tching and moaning about the films.
*(except if you're married and stuff. I think I covered all the bases.)

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I have a YouTube channel on all things Bond (amongst other things, coming soon™).
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14 Reply by Barbel

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

Agreed, that's one the series' great strengths: variety.  ajb007/cheers  Keeping things the same... but different!

15 Reply by Thunderpussy

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

https://youtu.be/dOLq5Rg9N-c
This one's different.   ajb007/wink

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16 Reply by Dirty Punker

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

Barbel wrote:

Agreed, that's one the series' great strengths: variety.  ajb007/cheers  Keeping things the same... but different!

ajb007/cheers ...and the one that matches that description would be:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hrdwcncbaQ4/TQ1LWoXyBpI/AAAAAAAAHHY/pE2AW1812n8/s1600/Moonraker+%25281979%2529.jpg
[Which vastly improved Spy, IMO. Damn...that poster is excellent (7 people, 6 girls and 7 is 007 in the middle). That tears it, I'm watching MR tonight.]

TP, I'm guessing you're the guy that commented "Different, Different, Different." ajb007/bond

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17 Reply by Barbel

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

Thunderpussy wrote:

https://youtu.be/dOLq5Rg9N-c
This one's different.   ajb007/wink

All the difference in the world.

18 Reply by Thunderpussy

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

... It had to be. When he's around. ajb007/wink

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

19 Reply by walther p99

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

Chriscoop wrote:
Jarvio wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:

Eh, take out the silliness about Bond and Blofeld being brothers, and it pretty much is a standard Bond film, with the exception that its actions sequences generally underwhelm.  It's certainly the closest thing Craig has made to one.

I respectfully disagree, the nine-eyes plot and heavy MI6 focus is very prominent too.

Taking out the Blofeld brothers plot would certainly make it more standard, but you could say the same thing about the other 3 DC films in terms of taking out certain elements of them too. And even with that, nine-eyes remains.

I'm not sure what the most 'standard' Craig bond film is. Maybe QOS, but it is a very hard choice, because none of them are even close.

I think CR is probably Dc's most standard film,  lots of locations it's relatively faithful to the book, we have gadgets,  dinner suits,  a casino a train and an Aston Martin. OK the gunbarrel and bond theme aside.
The problem with Spectre is that you simply can't think about it too much or else you get annoyed with the amount of questions you end up with,  it's only the score that makes most action scenes underwhelming.  Given that Spectre was mendes vision if Bond he missed the mark on a few things.  He should have stopped with sf inmho. For me there is still much to enjoy with Spectre and that's what I prefer to think about.  The bad bits such as the brother thing,  the Rome car chase ruined by the phonecall, bad use of locations,  plot holes I ignore as best I can and concentrate on the bits I like such as Bonds interaction with Q and tanner,  seeing bonds flat,  that db10,  hinx,  train fight,  the scenes in l'americain,  the scene with Lucia set to Cum Dederit etc there's lots to love.

I think the first half of the film in London is damn near perfect. Starts with Bond in M's office, then his flat, then meeting with Q, its all classic Bond. Its only once he leaves London and sets off on a pretty drawn out been there done that adventure draws the most criticism.

20 Reply by Jarvio

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

I really enjoyed SP when it first came out, but now that some time has passed, I believe that the Blofeld's 'reasoning' for wanting revenge on bond is the dumbest thing to ever grace a bond film.

1 - Avtak, 2 - Op, 3 - Ltk, 4 - Lald, 5 - Fyeo, 6 - Ohmss, 7 - Sf, 8 - Dn, 9 - Ge, 10 - Daf, 11 - Tmwtgg, 12 - Tswlm, 13 - Mr, 14 - Tld, 15 - Yolt, 16 - Sp, 17 - Gf, 18 - Frwl, 19 - Dad, 20 - Qos, 21 - Tnd, 22 - Twine, 23 - Tb, 24 - Cr

1 - Moore, 2 - Dalton, 3 - Craig, 4 - Connery, 5 - Brosnan, 6 - Lazenby

21 Reply by Chriscoop

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

walther p99 wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:
Jarvio wrote:

I respectfully disagree, the nine-eyes plot and heavy MI6 focus is very prominent too.

Taking out the Blofeld brothers plot would certainly make it more standard, but you could say the same thing about the other 3 DC films in terms of taking out certain elements of them too. And even with that, nine-eyes remains.

I'm not sure what the most 'standard' Craig bond film is. Maybe QOS, but it is a very hard choice, because none of them are even close.

I think CR is probably Dc's most standard film,  lots of locations it's relatively faithful to the book, we have gadgets,  dinner suits,  a casino a train and an Aston Martin. OK the gunbarrel and bond theme aside.
The problem with Spectre is that you simply can't think about it too much or else you get annoyed with the amount of questions you end up with,  it's only the score that makes most action scenes underwhelming.  Given that Spectre was mendes vision if Bond he missed the mark on a few things.  He should have stopped with sf inmho. For me there is still much to enjoy with Spectre and that's what I prefer to think about.  The bad bits such as the brother thing,  the Rome car chase ruined by the phonecall, bad use of locations,  plot holes I ignore as best I can and concentrate on the bits I like such as Bonds interaction with Q and tanner,  seeing bonds flat,  that db10,  hinx,  train fight,  the scenes in l'americain,  the scene with Lucia set to Cum Dederit etc there's lots to love.

I think the first half of the film in London is damn near perfect. Starts with Bond in M's office, then his flat, then meeting with Q, its all classic Bond. Its only once he leaves London and sets off on a pretty drawn out been there done that adventure draws the most criticism.

I enjoy the London scenes too it's after the Rome scenes it sort of unravels a bit.  But for me there is enough to enjoy,  I like the Mr white scene,  I like the fight at the hoffner klinik,  the l'americain room scene, I like the train fight,  the silver wraith scene.  Not fussed about Blofelds lair,  and In the finale I like the safehouse and bond breaking cable tie. As these scenes come often enough for me to enjoy the whole film. Bond and Blofelds interaction I tend to go put the kettle on or put my fingers in my ears and think of my own lines just not to hear the universally disliked brother thing and author of all your pain.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

22 Reply by Matt S

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

Jarvio wrote:

I really enjoyed SP when it first came out, but now that some time has passed, I believe that the Blofeld's 'reasoning' for wanting revenge on bond is the dumbest thing to ever grace a bond film.

That's what a friend of mine said to me when he first saw it, and it made him stop caring about what happened. It just made Blofeld seem a whole lot less menacing, and the stakes were lowered considerably when we find out the reason.

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23 Reply by Chriscoop

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

Matt S wrote:
Jarvio wrote:

I really enjoyed SP when it first came out, but now that some time has passed, I believe that the Blofeld's 'reasoning' for wanting revenge on bond is the dumbest thing to ever grace a bond film.

That's what a friend of mine said to me when he first saw it, and it made him stop caring about what happened. It just made Blofeld seem a whole lot less menacing, and the stakes were lowered considerably when we find out the reason.

Agreed,  not world domination or a psychopathic criminal mastermind out to blackmail the world powers but a slightly weird man who has a daddy complex and heads up a prostitute,  drug dealing and human trafficking syndicate.  Quantums world water control plan was better for such an organisation.  Blofeld should be diabolical not what we got in Spectre,  which started well with his introduction in Rome,  but then you ask why was everyone so scared of him?

It was either that.....or the priesthood

24 Reply by Chriscoop

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

And what was the point if nine eyes? Quantum had people everywhere they facilitated government changes, had the cia in their  pocket and had a man stood next to the chief of mi6.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

25 Reply by Dirty Punker

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Re: SP is not a "by the numbers" bond film at all

Chriscoop wrote:

And what was the point if nine eyes? Quantum had people everywhere they facilitated government changes, had the cia in their  pocket and had a man stood next to the chief of mi6.

Had.
It wasn't SPECTRE's style after Quantum became defunct. Why would they have people who could betray them when they could take matters into their own hands?

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I have a YouTube channel on all things Bond (amongst other things, coming soon™).
The name's Bond and Beyond. It's currently on hold, though.