I'd also would like to address 2 of the main arguments from the Hard Brexiteers:
1. The Referendum was "Brexit" and that must be fulfilled.
Well, it seems that the majority of the UK MPs refuse to do exactly that because of the permanent damage to the people and country.
The "Brexit vote" had no context (such as a) by all means, even without a deal, b) under the Chequers deal (which did not exist back then), c) remain) and it had and still has no idea what should be done in Ireland.
So, you can stomp with your feet and insist that you get the hardest possible Brexit, but you don't have the majority of MPs willing to do exactly this!
2. Another Referendum will not change the situation.
As a matter of fact, almost 90% of the young people have voted for remain but most of them stayed in bed without voting.
In the last 2 1/2 years, many young people reached the age to vote and many of the elder people (who tend to vote Brexit) have died.
Additionally, the difficulties of a Brexit (Ireland, Deal/No Deal What is part of the deal) become clearer now and the people can give a better informed vote because the conditions and consequences are now more obvious.
Having said that, I don't see a majority of MPs who will execute the suicide mission, even if a second referendum would result in a Hard Brexit. And the unsolved Ireland issue would still remain.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I don't think the majority of Parliament are trying to avoid a hard Brexit at all cost. If they did they would have voted for May's deal yesterday. But generally I think what's happening is a dog's dinner :v
Were you away this weekend? I haven't seen you around for a while.
A glass of Coke Zero in SABS, Higgins? :007)
Theresa May survived the no-confidence vote. May was right when she said Parliament has shown clearly what it is against, but not what it supports (paraphrasing). Winning was no real victory for May, but I'm pretty sure it's a real defeat for Corbyn. Not being able to remove a PM who just lost so spectacularely in the most important votes in decades makes him look weak
The EU's chief negotiator said he's willing to re-open the Brexit negotiations if May is willing to move some red lines, meaning "if it makes the choice to be more ambitious and go beyond a simple free trade agreement." I'm not sure what those red lines are, but an EU membership includes freedom of movement, customs union and jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice etc. so it could mean leaving some of that in when making a new Brexit deal. People will love that …
UK politicians have been blaming the EU for decades for their own failures and that is now biting back.
It's obviously not all milk and honey after the country is leaving the EU, otherwise there would be a majority in the parliament now for a No-Deal Brexit.
I blame Mrs. May for this to a large degree:
After she took the job, she could have told her people the truth, which is, that leaving the EU will result in severe damage to the country and people - not only inside of the UK.
Instead, she kept the illusion alive, that the EU would crack under the UK "being special and unique" and in the eye of a Hard-Brexit. It becomes now obvious, that the majority of the parliament has no illusions and tries to avoid a Hard Brexit by all means.
I remember the (still ongoing) scaremongering reasoning and it becomes obvious step by step that this is becoming more and more reality.
One word about "fairness":
The UK strategy for the negotiations from day one was to divide and play out single EU countries against each other and thus getting their terms thru. At the same time, (and I was hearing that often here (the German car makers will make sure that they will not have tariffs)) they tried to play the influential industries against their own governments.
All this totally failed because it was an illusion!
I don't think, that we'll see the default option of a Hard Brexit in March as obviously the majority of the parliament will vote against.
Ireland: Both the EU and the UK (rightly) want to avoid a hard border by all means.
So far nobody came up with a practical solution for this dilemma. I am only hearing, what people are against. Nobody says what they are supportive of.
That seems a general issue in our world where people tend to believe populists more than experienced people. Populists will tell you all day, what they are against. If they tell you, what they want - the replies are getting shorter and far less elaborate. As an example, UKIP was against the EU, but had no idea how to leave the EU without driving the country into a wall.
We have the problem, that we will have the elections of the EU parliament starting 23rd May 2019 and both scenarios are unthinkable:
a: Have that election taking place in the UK and have UK MPs elected when the UK have left the EU (regardless who will pay for them).
b: Have no election in the UK with the slim chance that the UK will withdraw from Brexit and thus need to be represented in the EU parliament.
Strap: Today's news tomorrow... and the day after that, probably
Brexit Never Dies
A hotel room in Hamburg. The Prime Minister and her deal is dead as a dodo on the bed. Things look bleak for Britain.
Higgins, I mean Dr Kaufman: My name is Dr Kaufman. I am an expect in the European Union - take my word for it, ya?
She struggled most terribly Mister Bond. It is a pity you got involved in all this. As she died, she kept saying 'Nothing has changed, nothing has changed!' Mr Bond: I can well believe it.
It won't look like suicide if we stay in the customs union. Mr Kaufman: I am an professor of European politics, Mister Bond. Believe me, with our verbal reassurances, we can sign you off from Stuttgart and still create the proper effect! (The scene is intercut with sounds of sledgehammers being taken to May's Brexit deal)
My opinions are especially sought after Mister Bond, er, except on the ajb website!
I post all over the world.
The EU is especially good at the austerity overdose - look at Greece, for example.
But now Mister Bond, I am afraid that our little... AHHHHH! Juncker!? Stop yelling in my ear. Juncker: Sir, we can't get hold of the cheque for £38billion. Kaufman: Oh, you can't be serious! Did you call the IMF? Junker: No, do you want to call them? Make him sign the money over. Kaufman: Okay, I ask. Tis very embarassing. It seems there are some red lines that we can't get around. So Mister Bond, before you do No Deal, we need some money from you. I feel like an idiot. I don't know what to say. Bond: That's a first. Kaufman: I don't know what to do. I am to bore on about how Brosnan is better than Craig until you give it to me. I am very skilled at this. Bond: (in his customary weary Brosnan tone again): Do you have a doctorate in that, too? Kaufman: No. Is more of a hobby. But I'm very tedious. Bond: Oh I believe you. My cheque book is just...
Kaufman: No, no Mister Bond, if you could just hand your cheque book to me, ya? And I will write it out with my pen, that is better, ya? (Bond hands over the cheque book with a flourish... Some moths fly out, thanks to Osborne and May's austerity years.) Bond: Write: 'European Union... £38bn...' (But as Kaufman does this, an electric bolt emits from the cheque book and Kaufman falls to his knees.) Kaufman: Wait, I'm just an ajb member doing a job! Bond: Me too! Kaufman: Eh? I was trying to kill you, not sexually assault you!
[Bond exits in a puff of patriotism and his German-made BMW. He chuckles to himself, but nobody thinks to rebuke him for this, though the PM's deal is still warm in its bed...
Unfortunately the remote control mechanism was programmed by the Duke of Edinburgh and as the vehicle careers around the car park it crashes out. But there's no harm done to anyone, none whatsoever, which is all highly credible.]
The End... But Bond will return in The World Has Had Enough, followed by Quit Another Day.
I find it fascinating that the majority of the UK people seem to make the EU responsible for everything that went wrong in the last years but are judging mildly about the Brexit Clowns, who blatantly lied in the face of them prior to the referendum and immediately left the sinking ship after the decision was made into their direction.
Austerity:
I am aware that many poor people blame the EU for the downfall of the NHS, the social benefits and so on.
Truth is, everything started with Thatcher, she systematically weakened Unions, workers rights, social benefits. That's how the austerity politics started and everything got even worse in the aftermaths of the financial crisis - mostly caused by the banking sector - and large parts of that sits in London.
The EU had a lot to do with cleaning up everything from the past and tried to stop the disaster growing further.
But the reasons for the austerity have little to do with the EU.
One last thing: I understand that people that suffered and still do from the globalisation wanted a change.
But the EU with all their regulations were the last fortress in order to keep a minimum of social benefits and rules (while the Tories would have gladly cut more in order to become more competitive).
So the irony is, that many poor people voted to get out of the EU will get the result that their social benefits will be even more cut back without the EU and if you fall back to WTO terms, these poor people will realize how brutal a pure global competition can be. So people who blamed the EU for all negative globalisation effects, will get even more globalisation "because we can now make trade deals with the entire world".
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,689MI6 Agent
Boris Johnson intervenes today in a speech on his Brexit plans:
I don't think any speaker of of our Storting has ever needed to raise their voices. I see that as both a plus and a negative. BTW: what does it mean when he bellows "UNLOCK!"
Tagline: Nothing Has Changed! Nothing Will Change!
Daniel Craig is still James Bond in
No Deals, Mister Bond
In this hastily revised script, a meglamaniac tries to prevent Craig in his attempt to Leave the Bond franchise, by running down the clock (the credits include a homage to those of OHMSS) and repeatedly delaying the departure date, first by forcing out the director (David Davis, played by Danny Boyle), then by making a set of unreasonable demands, and lastly by putting back the departure date to April 2020.
Barbara Broccoli is said to have been approached for a major role in the film.
Adele is called upon to do a cover of the 1966 classic 'Please Release Me, Let Me Go' but critics deride this as a tedious injoke relating to the Strawberry Fields character in QoS.
New Comic Relief sketch starring Stacey Dooley comes in for criticism...
"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Silhouette ManThe last refuge of a scoundrelPosts: 8,689MI6 Agent
I see that the Transport Secretary "failing" Grayling strikes again to the tune of £33 million. Everything he touches seems to turn to disaster. Deep Brexit uncertainty means he of course keeps his job, though.
"The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).
I may sound naive, but if I'd run the EU, I wouldn't accept any extension!
After the referendum, instead of drawing up a comprehensive Brexit strategy, UK government did exactly nothing for 3/4 of a year.
Now that it's clear that the UK Parliament by all means does not want a Hard Brexit (they are still divided in what they really want), I'd press them to decide:
- leave the EU (which would be my preference)
- stop everything and stay.
Making another referendum is a bad idea in my opinion.
The first referendum has put the UK into turmoil in the last 3 years and it still continues. I have been criticized for being undemocratic here on the board, but to me, it's clear evidence, that it simply does not work that way!
We elect politicians who have the brain, the education and the responsibility to make complex decisions for us.
That's how an indirect democracy works and has worked for centuries in the UK.
If my appendix hurts, I go to a doctor and I'd be furious, if he'd ask me to make the decision, if he should take it out or not.
He's the pro, he should take that decision and not me.
Another aspect is, that if the UK stayed in the EU, the decades ongoing blamegame would continue - blaming the EU for everything that went wrong in the last 3 years and coming.
So, I honestly wish that the UK leaves on 29th March - no deals, no games.
It will hurt everybody, but the EU will be shot in the foot, UK will shoot themselves in the head.
Rant over!
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Comments
1. The Referendum was "Brexit" and that must be fulfilled.
Well, it seems that the majority of the UK MPs refuse to do exactly that because of the permanent damage to the people and country.
The "Brexit vote" had no context (such as a) by all means, even without a deal, b) under the Chequers deal (which did not exist back then), c) remain) and it had and still has no idea what should be done in Ireland.
So, you can stomp with your feet and insist that you get the hardest possible Brexit, but you don't have the majority of MPs willing to do exactly this!
2. Another Referendum will not change the situation.
As a matter of fact, almost 90% of the young people have voted for remain but most of them stayed in bed without voting.
In the last 2 1/2 years, many young people reached the age to vote and many of the elder people (who tend to vote Brexit) have died.
Additionally, the difficulties of a Brexit (Ireland, Deal/No Deal What is part of the deal) become clearer now and the people can give a better informed vote because the conditions and consequences are now more obvious.
Having said that, I don't see a majority of MPs who will execute the suicide mission, even if a second referendum would result in a Hard Brexit. And the unsolved Ireland issue would still remain.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Were you away this weekend? I haven't seen you around for a while.
A glass of Coke Zero in SABS, Higgins? :007)
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I'll have a Coke Zero '17. Great vintage.
Any comments on the developments around Bond25 in your absence?
Yes, it looks like May will remain in office. That's extraordinary after her defeat yesterday.
(UK members will get the reference more)
Theresa May survived the no-confidence vote. May was right when she said Parliament has shown clearly what it is against, but not what it supports (paraphrasing). Winning was no real victory for May, but I'm pretty sure it's a real defeat for Corbyn. Not being able to remove a PM who just lost so spectacularely in the most important votes in decades makes him look weak
The EU's chief negotiator said he's willing to re-open the Brexit negotiations if May is willing to move some red lines, meaning "if it makes the choice to be more ambitious and go beyond a simple free trade agreement." I'm not sure what those red lines are, but an EU membership includes freedom of movement, customs union and jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice etc. so it could mean leaving some of that in when making a new Brexit deal. People will love that …
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-theresa-may-eu-negotiations-trade-michel-barnier-vote-commons-defeat-a8730116.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63rcdLeXiU8
Strap: Today's news tomorrow... and the day after that, probably
Brexit Never Dies
A hotel room in Hamburg. The Prime Minister and her deal is dead as a dodo on the bed. Things look bleak for Britain.
Higgins, I mean Dr Kaufman: My name is Dr Kaufman. I am an expect in the European Union - take my word for it, ya?
She struggled most terribly Mister Bond. It is a pity you got involved in all this. As she died, she kept saying 'Nothing has changed, nothing has changed!'
Mr Bond: I can well believe it.
It won't look like suicide if we stay in the customs union.
Mr Kaufman: I am an professor of European politics, Mister Bond. Believe me, with our verbal reassurances, we can sign you off from Stuttgart and still create the proper effect!
(The scene is intercut with sounds of sledgehammers being taken to May's Brexit deal)
My opinions are especially sought after Mister Bond, er, except on the ajb website!
I post all over the world.
The EU is especially good at the austerity overdose - look at Greece, for example.
But now Mister Bond, I am afraid that our little... AHHHHH! Juncker!? Stop yelling in my ear.
Juncker: Sir, we can't get hold of the cheque for £38billion.
Kaufman: Oh, you can't be serious! Did you call the IMF?
Junker: No, do you want to call them? Make him sign the money over.
Kaufman: Okay, I ask. Tis very embarassing. It seems there are some red lines that we can't get around. So Mister Bond, before you do No Deal, we need some money from you. I feel like an idiot. I don't know what to say.
Bond: That's a first.
Kaufman: I don't know what to do. I am to bore on about how Brosnan is better than Craig until you give it to me. I am very skilled at this.
Bond: (in his customary weary Brosnan tone again): Do you have a doctorate in that, too?
Kaufman: No. Is more of a hobby. But I'm very tedious.
Bond: Oh I believe you. My cheque book is just...
Kaufman: No, no Mister Bond, if you could just hand your cheque book to me, ya? And I will write it out with my pen, that is better, ya?
(Bond hands over the cheque book with a flourish... Some moths fly out, thanks to Osborne and May's austerity years.)
Bond: Write: 'European Union... £38bn...'
(But as Kaufman does this, an electric bolt emits from the cheque book and Kaufman falls to his knees.)
Kaufman: Wait, I'm just an ajb member doing a job!
Bond: Me too!
Kaufman: Eh? I was trying to kill you, not sexually assault you!
[Bond exits in a puff of patriotism and his German-made BMW. He chuckles to himself, but nobody thinks to rebuke him for this, though the PM's deal is still warm in its bed...
Unfortunately the remote control mechanism was programmed by the Duke of Edinburgh and as the vehicle careers around the car park it crashes out. But there's no harm done to anyone, none whatsoever, which is all highly credible.]
The End... But Bond will return in The World Has Had Enough, followed by Quit Another Day.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Very good, NP.
2 things:
I find it fascinating that the majority of the UK people seem to make the EU responsible for everything that went wrong in the last years but are judging mildly about the Brexit Clowns, who blatantly lied in the face of them prior to the referendum and immediately left the sinking ship after the decision was made into their direction.
Austerity:
I am aware that many poor people blame the EU for the downfall of the NHS, the social benefits and so on.
Truth is, everything started with Thatcher, she systematically weakened Unions, workers rights, social benefits. That's how the austerity politics started and everything got even worse in the aftermaths of the financial crisis - mostly caused by the banking sector - and large parts of that sits in London.
The EU had a lot to do with cleaning up everything from the past and tried to stop the disaster growing further.
But the reasons for the austerity have little to do with the EU.
One last thing: I understand that people that suffered and still do from the globalisation wanted a change.
But the EU with all their regulations were the last fortress in order to keep a minimum of social benefits and rules (while the Tories would have gladly cut more in order to become more competitive).
So the irony is, that many poor people voted to get out of the EU will get the result that their social benefits will be even more cut back without the EU and if you fall back to WTO terms, these poor people will realize how brutal a pure global competition can be. So people who blamed the EU for all negative globalisation effects, will get even more globalisation "because we can now make trade deals with the entire world".
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMO8W4QnlQQ
http://home.bt.com/news/from-order-to-unlock-john-bercows-best-bellows-91364325826292
I don't think any speaker of of our Storting has ever needed to raise their voices. I see that as both a plus and a negative. BTW: what does it mean when he bellows "UNLOCK!"
Welcome back Higgins!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Daniel Craig is still James Bond in
No Deals, Mister Bond
In this hastily revised script, a meglamaniac tries to prevent Craig in his attempt to Leave the Bond franchise, by running down the clock (the credits include a homage to those of OHMSS) and repeatedly delaying the departure date, first by forcing out the director (David Davis, played by Danny Boyle), then by making a set of unreasonable demands, and lastly by putting back the departure date to April 2020.
Barbara Broccoli is said to have been approached for a major role in the film.
Adele is called upon to do a cover of the 1966 classic 'Please Release Me, Let Me Go' but critics deride this as a tedious injoke relating to the Strawberry Fields character in QoS.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Roger Moore 1927-2017
- and then voting against gravity
I may sound naive, but if I'd run the EU, I wouldn't accept any extension!
After the referendum, instead of drawing up a comprehensive Brexit strategy, UK government did exactly nothing for 3/4 of a year.
Now that it's clear that the UK Parliament by all means does not want a Hard Brexit (they are still divided in what they really want), I'd press them to decide:
- leave the EU (which would be my preference)
- stop everything and stay.
Making another referendum is a bad idea in my opinion.
The first referendum has put the UK into turmoil in the last 3 years and it still continues. I have been criticized for being undemocratic here on the board, but to me, it's clear evidence, that it simply does not work that way!
We elect politicians who have the brain, the education and the responsibility to make complex decisions for us.
That's how an indirect democracy works and has worked for centuries in the UK.
If my appendix hurts, I go to a doctor and I'd be furious, if he'd ask me to make the decision, if he should take it out or not.
He's the pro, he should take that decision and not me.
Another aspect is, that if the UK stayed in the EU, the decades ongoing blamegame would continue - blaming the EU for everything that went wrong in the last 3 years and coming.
So, I honestly wish that the UK leaves on 29th March - no deals, no games.
It will hurt everybody, but the EU will be shot in the foot, UK will shoot themselves in the head.
Rant over!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
A very accurate analogy for the whole ludicrous situation. Short-term gain was the only goal of those politicians who put us into this mess.