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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Remington wrote:

I've always been a closet DAD fan. Had to edit my original post. I put down too many cons. ajb007/lol
ajb007/martini

Oh aren't we all?
I seem to have adopted TP's way of thinking on some levels.
Every Bond movie is better than 90% of all other action movies but some Bond movies are appropriate for other times, moods.

Yet so, DAD is a movie I go back and forth on.
Love it and hate it.

Sort of like Diamonds.
It's so boggus, so intriguing and beautiful in its own way and yet so   Brexit .
Purvis and Wade were geniuses back in 02. To create a movie so abhorrently crap to actually be good and even have some unused potential on its back.

"...I have the oddest feeling we will be meeting again sometime..."
-Roger Moore's James Bond. RIP.
I have a YouTube channel on all things Bond (amongst other things, coming soon™).
The name's Bond and Beyond. It's currently on hold, though.

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Cons:
11 seconds of bad CGI
worst theme song after the abomination that is AWTD

Pros:
Everything else, the movie is bloody awesome and epic.

Dalton Rulez™

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Dirty Punker wrote:

Sort of like Diamonds.
It's so boggus

It is supposed to be bogus, DP, it's the subtext.

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Barbel wrote:
Dirty Punker wrote:

Sort of like Diamonds.
It's so boggus

It is supposed to be boggus, DP, it's the subtext.

There, fixed that for ya ajb007/tongue.

(Thank you for correcting me, we all make mistakes)

"...I have the oddest feeling we will be meeting again sometime..."
-Roger Moore's James Bond. RIP.
I have a YouTube channel on all things Bond (amongst other things, coming soon™).
The name's Bond and Beyond. It's currently on hold, though.

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

No, no, no. I wasn't playing spelling games.

You have missed the point. DAF carries a subtext about dualities and the nature of reality, which is perhaps surprising in what is normally considered a lightweight entry in what is normally considered a lightweight film series. This is why, to paraphrase, it appears simultaneously bogus, beautiful and intriguing.

https://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/44307/su … nd-themes/  First post, third paragraph

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

For me DAF is a neo-noir with Bond playing kind of a Philip Marlowe kind of character, chasing diamonds and with tons of femme fatales. A lot of duplicity and mystery.

Dalton Rulez™

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Barbel wrote:

DAF carries a subtext about dualities and the nature of reality, which is perhaps surprising in what is normally considered a lightweight entry in what is normally considered a lightweight film series. This is why, to paraphrase, it appears simultaneously bogus, beautiful and intriguing.

Happy to admit that I see it, but I certainly think it's more bogus than beautiful and intriguing because both the text and subtext is so poorly executed I can't admire it.

1. TWINE  2. FYEO  3. MR  4. TLD  5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS  7. DN  8. OP  9. AVTAK  10. TMWTGG  11. QoS 12. GE  13. CR  14. TB  15. FRWL  16. LTK  17. GF  18. SF  19. LaLD  20. YOLT  21. TND  22. DAD  23. DAF.

"If you'll forgive me, that's a little too scented for my palate."

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

There's truth in that, for which I blame Guy Hamilton!

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

DAD has always been a personal favourite Bond film of mine, ever since I seen it in the cinema all those years ago. I am not at all blind to the abundance of problems, which the film has and can rarely dispute with most of you on here who often rank the film at the tail end of your definite Bond list. The film has always held a special nostalgic place in my heart for years though and I have always tried to defend it whenever possible but will try as much of a non-biased viewpoint as possible here.

The general consensus here seems to be that the 1st half of the film holds any and all the greatness, which the film may have but I think that this is unfair to say. Instead I feel that the film often rides a tightrope between greatness and awfulness and it sways between the two of them relatively evenly throughout the runtime, although the 1st half is considerably stronger, all in all.

Here's my complete rundown of the film (Pros and Cons to be found within  ajb007/lol )

- The Pre-title sequence is pretty fantastic all round. Excellent stunts, an intriguing desaturated look into the dangerous North Korea, decent dialogue and set up.
- The title sequence, is extremely inventive and holds up well however the song by Madonna is unfortunately terrible and doesn't fit the warped imagery of Bond being tortured at all.
- Things run smoothly up until Bond stops his heart to escape his chamber. That's the first real sign that this film is going to delve into the complete impossible, rather than highly implausible.
- Awful Ocean and Hong Kong backdrop plus the deck of the ship looks like a pretty crap set with no real care or attention.
- I love all of the Cuba scenes right up until the awful introduction of Jinx, filled with cringeworthy out of place dialogue which makes them seem quite pervy.
- Completelyunnecessary, gratuatous sex scene.
- The whole Cuban clinic scene is probably the strongest in the film for me but is almost spoiled by the wonky CGI jinx diving backwards off the cliff. I mean, c'mon ...
- Gustav Graves entrance is decent enough and the sword fight at the club is excellent. Just seems like it's part of a completely different and wholly competent Bond film.
- Mi6 Virtual Reality training session is bonkers but still quite well executed when compared to other elements of the film. Cleese is great.
- Invisible car is entirely ridiculous and I should hate it but it's honestly one of the things that doesn't bother me in the film, in fact I find it quite cool in some parts.
- Things mainly do go off the rails in Iceland. The whole Icarus setup is pretty ludicrous, Bond and Frosts brief relationship comes off all wrong, the Sci-Fi CGI laser fight and Tsunami surfing send the film into the abyss.
- There are moments spread through the Iceland segment that I genuinely love though: The look of the Ice palace, "Plenty of Ice ... if you can spare it", Bond using the Re-Breather, Use of the Sonic Ring, Invisible car has its use and the Ice Car Chase is an absolute breath of fresh air after the Wind Sufring.
- The whole ending on the plane is entertaining enough but so OTT that you just end up watching thee film completely fall apart in front of your eyes.
- Jinx and Frosts fight is the highlight of the climax
- DREADFUL blue screen background when they are flying over the land after getting the chopper to start in mid-air. I mean, it looks like they're going at the speed of a jet plane in the interior shots but yet cover like 10 yards from the exterior ones  ajb007/lol Shocking stuff.
- Virtual Reality Bond and the "You're so good, especially when you're bad" may not be the worst offenders in the film but leave one hell of a sour taste in the viewers mouths"
- This certainly isn't Brozzers best performance in the role but he makes the most of what he has and seems like he is struggling to figure out how to play the role at certain points. His inconsistencies are most certainly not his fault.
- Zao and Frost are great but the rest of the main players are pretty poor because they're working with a wonky script. (Especially Jinx)
- Tamohori seemed to have far too much input within the movie, even to the point of putting forward the whole CGI wind surfing thing. I'm all for the director putting their stamp on a Bond flick, creatively, but surely the producers should have slammed the door shut on that mad idea.

That's my fair overview on the film. As I said, it will always have a special place in my heart and I can't really explain why I love it so much as - stated above - it is flawed to the very core. It's an event movie and can be genuinely enjoyed if you just look at it as a high budget celebration of all that has came before. Plus, there's no need to be mad at the movie because it far from killed the franchise and instead kept in going with the necessary Craig reboot. It's a strange one for me because when I'm being deadly honest about DAD, there's obviously more negatives than positives spread throughout the runtime, buuuuut there still a load to be enjoyed in there, because you can't say for one moment that you aren't thoroughly entertained with all the schizophrenic eye-candy present, on screen.

....and the best he ever managed was a sermon on the mount.

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

I agree with basically everything you wrote, although I'm a closet fan of Madonna's theme. ajb007/cheers
ajb007/martini

1. GE 2. CR 3. LTK 4. TLD 5. TB 6. GF 7. FRWL 8. DN 9. OHMSS 10. QOS 11. TND 12. TSWLM 13. FYEO 14. OP 15. MR 16. TWINE 17. DAD 18. SF 19. DAF 20. AVTAK 21. LALD 22. TMWTGG 23. YOLT 24. SP

1. Connery 2. Moore 3. Dalton 4. Brosnan 5. Craig 6. Lazenby

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Nice to see some love for DAD.  ajb007/martini  I actually rather like the
Faster dance version of Madonna's song.

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Find it strange that a more uptempo version of the theme song is inserted when Bond meets Jinx again, in the ice palace. Does Graves have the soundtrack of the film  in his possession?  ajb007/lol

....and the best he ever managed was a sermon on the mount.

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Don't think so- that version isn't on it!  ajb007/lol

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Barbel wrote:

Don't think so- that version isn't on it!  ajb007/lol

Fair point  ajb007/lol

....and the best he ever managed was a sermon on the mount.

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

I believe Jinx's character adds nothing to the plot and is unnecessary except to further hype Halle Berry's own ego. I cant think of anything she does or information she provides that changes the story in any way, with two exceptions noted below. Maybe I need to rewatch the film.
I think the plot would have worked the same, if not better, without her altogether. As with the previous film, the Good Bondgirl is just written in because that's the formula, not because she is an organic part of the plot, and in the Craig-era would not have been required at all. Removing her would have given more space to Miranda Frost, who is essential to the plot. Indeed, Frost is the answer to a mystery Bond has been trying to solve since the opening scenes.

Two things Jinx does do:
-She fights and kills Frost at the end. Thus dividing our attention from Bonds fight with the big baddy, and making Halle Berry look like an action hero with the potential for her own franchise. There would have been more dramatic potential in Bond killing Frost, but perhaps that would have been too similar to the ending of the previous film. A bit of a problem when the new formula is "main Bondgirl is really the badguy and must die a villains death in the final scene".
-She has to be rescued like a damsel-in-distress in the ice palace. Not good for an action hero with the potential for her own franchise, though Agent XXX in her time also played damsel-in-distress. This scene does give us a good look at the architecture of the ice palace, shows off some more tricks of the invisible car, and provides yet more action and blowing-up. So without her needing to be rescued, the whole Iceland scenes would have been over much more quickly.
Neither of these are essential to the plot, they just fill time and promote Halle Berry's own brand.

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Wasn't the "explicit for a Bond film" sex scene her own idea?

"...I have the oddest feeling we will be meeting again sometime..."
-Roger Moore's James Bond. RIP.
I have a YouTube channel on all things Bond (amongst other things, coming soon™).
The name's Bond and Beyond. It's currently on hold, though.

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

good point: Jinx adds more orgasm-faking to the plot than there was in any other Bond film before or since

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Wow, sounds like someone has an issue with Halle Berry.  I think DAD is the worst Bond film ever made and agree that Jinx is a useless character.  But to lay all of the character's failings at Halle Berry's feet is a bit much, particularly when done in a way that borders on the assassination of a real person's character.

Hilly...you old devil!

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Wonder how it lasted that long.
I mean, you have Halle Berry on top of you and you were a year and a couple of months in NK.
Wasn't the whole premise of the titles sequence him seeing sexy women because he couldn't feed the geese?

"...I have the oddest feeling we will be meeting again sometime..."
-Roger Moore's James Bond. RIP.
I have a YouTube channel on all things Bond (amongst other things, coming soon™).
The name's Bond and Beyond. It's currently on hold, though.

345

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Sir Hillary Bray wrote:

Wow, sounds like someone has an issue with Halle Berry.  I think DAD is the worst Bond film ever made and agree that Jinx is a useless character.  But to lay all of the character's failings at Halle Berry's feet is a bit much, particularly when done in a way that borders on the assassination of a real person's character.

I think all my issues come from the way the character was written and the way the director chose to present her. They were discussing a spin-off series for the character, it was part of the hype for the film at the time. I believe many of her scenes were there to hype the potential spinoff rather than to advance the plot of the new Bondfilm, doubly a problem when this film is supposed to be the 20th/40th anniversary event.
I have no opinion of Berry as a person, beyond what I see from her performance in this film. Some other actress could have stepped into the part, as written and directed, and all my issues would have been the same.

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Fair enough, CP.  I never put much credence in the Jinx spinoff talk, but you are right that it was there.  I completely agree with your broader point that the character was badly written and directed (and acted, as I find Berry's performance too showy).  Jinx is probably the best example of the one word that best summarizes all of DAD for me -- forced.

Hilly...you old devil!

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Sir Hillary Bray wrote:

Fair enough, CP.  I never put much credence in the Jinx spinoff talk, but you are right that it was there.  I completely agree with your broader point that the character was badly written and directed (and acted, as I find Berry's performance too showy).  Jinx is probably the best example of the one word that best summarizes all of DAD for me -- forced.

The character is a train-wreck and IMO is a culmination of all the anti-Bond girl characters that appeared throughout the 90s Bonds. That essence of "I don't need help" but to follow the formula - end up needing help and falling to Bond's commands. It's a frustrating and transparent contradiction.

I like the fight at the end with Frost, but as CP calls out above, it takes away from Bond's fight and has the spinoff feel to it. The worst thing about Jinx is her slow-mo (looks good, but more objectively than that) and her "turned up to 11" dislike of Bond. Brosnan appears to be struggling too.

The best anti-Bond girl is Natalya. It's helped by the fact that there's definite chemistry.

1. TWINE  2. FYEO  3. MR  4. TLD  5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS  7. DN  8. OP  9. AVTAK  10. TMWTGG  11. QoS 12. GE  13. CR  14. TB  15. FRWL  16. LTK  17. GF  18. SF  19. LaLD  20. YOLT  21. TND  22. DAD  23. DAF.

"If you'll forgive me, that's a little too scented for my palate."

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Well, here comes yet another resurrected thread. Don't like to do this, but rules are rules...

I've been watching the Dalton/Brosnan entries week-by-week, with a friend who's never seen them, and we reached DAD yesterday, and to my surprise I enjoyed it more this time than previously. The flaws are all there, the need to consummate the seriousness found on TWINE still there, but I did appreciate the good stuff in it.

First of all, Pierce is really good in this. He's at his angriest, and instead of being petulant of visibly furious like Dalton in LTK, his experience in life and on the job informs his restrained but still clear desire for vengeance. In the first half in particular he drives the film and earns his place as one of the best Bonds. The action, such as it is, is still fantastically well done, and I love the cinematography, definitely the best-looking of the Dalton/Brosnan entries. And it needsto be stressed ho how good the first half of the film is. It does dip a bit when Berry's Jinx comes up, but I think up until the VR sequence with Q, it's potentially better than anything since GE. I mean, the pre-title sequence is fantastic, Bond being put to torture is just as good, his escape while extraordinary, feels like something Fleming would've written, the sword fight in the club is good, the action in the clinic is good, the M-Bond scenes are as good as ever... It's all good, man.
.... Then it goes to Iceland. Sigh. I don't need to repeat the criticism here, but suffice to say, for me, the jokes became unbearing at this point. This is a beef that I have with TND as well, but they did load Brosnans Bond with a LOT of one-liners and jokes, too many of them not working at all, either. I like the car chase, but I'd have preferred it if wasn't an invisible car. Basically, I wish the rest of the film carried in that time of the first half.

But, I still enjoyed it. Its way better than I remembered it, and I do think it works, despite its glaring flaws. Its way better than QOS, at least.

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

DAD is a FUN movie. Toby was excellent at taking it over the top, good score, Brosnan is wildly in control of his character, and the whole thing feels to me like an updated DAF. Yeah, some bad CGI stuff, but were the FX in DAF all that much better? I love DAD, as I love most Bond movies. This is one that has gotten better over time, IMHO. ajb007/martini

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Jimmy Bond wrote:

Well, here comes yet another resurrected thread. Don't like to do this, but rules are rules...

I've been watching the Dalton/Brosnan entries week-by-week, with a friend who's never seen them, and we reached DAD yesterday, and to my surprise I enjoyed it more this time than previously. The flaws are all there, the need to consummate the seriousness found on TWINE still there, but I did appreciate the good stuff in it.

First of all, Pierce is really good in this. He's at his angriest, and instead of being petulant of visibly furious like Dalton in LTK, his experience in life and on the job informs his restrained but still clear desire for vengeance. In the first half in particular he drives the film and earns his place as one of the best Bonds. The action, such as it is, is still fantastically well done, and I love the cinematography, definitely the best-looking of the Dalton/Brosnan entries. And it needsto be stressed ho how good the first half of the film is. It does dip a bit when Berry's Jinx comes up, but I think up until the VR sequence with Q, it's potentially better than anything since GE. I mean, the pre-title sequence is fantastic, Bond being put to torture is just as good, his escape while extraordinary, feels like something Fleming would've written, the sword fight in the club is good, the action in the clinic is good, the M-Bond scenes are as good as ever... It's all good, man.
.... Then it goes to Iceland. Sigh. I don't need to repeat the criticism here, but suffice to say, for me, the jokes became unbearing at this point. This is a beef that I have with TND as well, but they did load Brosnans Bond with a LOT of one-liners and jokes, too many of them not working at all, either. I like the car chase, but I'd have preferred it if wasn't an invisible car. Basically, I wish the rest of the film carried in that time of the first half.

But, I still enjoyed it. Its way better than I remembered it, and I do think it works, despite its glaring flaws. Its way better than QOS, at least.

The good bits are really good. The sword fight is up there with the best in any Bond movie. The first half is borderline perfect.

Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.