1 Topic by markdown

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Topic: TSWLM v MR

having read many (though not all) threads on this forum it seems to me ( i may be mistaken) that the general consensus of opinion is that TSWLM is a great film while MR is not. this puzzles me slightly as to me they are basically the same film. they have many similiarities and i would suggest MR is a remake of TSWLM for the following reasons,
1.the central villains both want to destroy civiliasation and create their own utopian societies one from beneath the ocean and one from space.
2. bond has an initially frosty relationship with a foriegn agent (kgb/cia)which eventually leads to them working together.
3. in one film bond has a car that can function underwater in the other he has a boat that functions on land.
4. m moneypenny and q all appear on location in either a pyramid or on a brazilian ranch.
5. bond's inevetable conquest of his rival agent is witnessed by m and all at the films conclusion
6. the PTS for both films feature bond making an ecape using a parachute.
7. both villains have a treacherous personal assistant who they punish by feeding them to an animal.
8.jaws is in both films.

2 Reply by Steed

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Re: TSWLM v MR

I think, perhaps subconsciously, you've perhaps pointed out why Moonraker isn't highly rated- it's very definitely an attempt to clone the success of TSWLM,yet goes by the phrase 'bigger is better' as we have more of everything in Moonraker. That's not a good thing- it's too bombastic, with the broad comedy being especially galling, and unlike TSWLM I think Moonraker's climactic action finale is boring, personally. It was a big hit but it's not at all artistically successful, imho. Not as creatively moribund as TMWTTGG is, but pretty close, imo.

3 Reply by Dan Same

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Re: TSWLM v MR

MR may very well be a remake of TSWLM however I consider TSWLM to be an absolute masterpiece and MR to be a (fun) disappointment. The reason why I consider MR to be a disappointment is that its second half was IMO absolutely ridiculous and its screenplay was pretty bad. However I don't think that TSWLM is ever so ridiculous that it off-balances the film. I also consider TSWLM's screenplay to be among the very best in the series.

I don't think it matters wether or not MR is a remake of TSWLM. What I think is important is how the elements come together. IMO the elements (plot, script, performances, action scenes, girls etc...) came together perfectly in TSWLM to forge what I consider to be the single greatest non-Connery Bond film of all time. In MR, the elements came together far less successfully. While I enjoy MR, I think it pales in comparison to TSWLM.

"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman

4 Reply by markdown

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Re: TSWLM v MR

Steed wrote:

I think, perhaps subconsciously, you've perhaps pointed out why Moonraker isn't highly rated- it's very definitely an attempt to clone the success of TSWLM,yet goes by the phrase 'bigger is better' as we have more of everything in Moonraker. That's not a good thing- it's too bombastic, with the broad comedy being especially galling, and unlike TSWLM I think Moonraker's climactic action finale is boring, personally. It was a big hit but it's not at all artistically successful, imho. Not as creatively moribund as TMWTTGG is, but pretty close, imo.

fair comment. personally i myself do prefer TSWLM to MR i just think that perhaps MR does suffer a little because it is so similiar to the earlier film.

5 Reply by Steed

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Re: TSWLM v MR

Yes the second half of MR is very weak indeed. I think it's the stupidest Bond ever got, and Jaws and his girlfriend...dear oh lord, WHAT was that all about?

6 Reply by Harry Palmer

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Re: TSWLM v MR

MR is a pretty explicit remake of TSWLM. But it's hardly the first time a remake happens in the series (both AVTAK and TWINE are loose remakes of GF). For me, the film's problem is not the lack of originality, but the silliness. TSWLM could count on the chemistry of Bond and XXX, and some truly beautiful location scenes (sunrise in cairo, etc.) MR had very little of this, although I do think that Drax is a more convincing villain than Stromberg.

1. Tld, 2. Ltk, 3. Cr, 4. Qs, 5. Frwl, 6. Twine, 7. Tnd, 8. Tswlm, 9. Ohmss, 10. Tb, 11. Ge, 12. Gf, 13. Dn, 14. Mr, 15. Op, 16. Yolt, 17. Sf, 18. Daf, 19. Fyeo, 20. Sp, 21. Avtak, 22. Dad, 23. Lald, 24. Tmwtgg

7 Reply by mythrenegade

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Re: TSWLM v MR

Just because a movie is similar doesn't mean it is as good. There are scores of james bond pretender films that have tried to copy the formula and failed (VI Warshawski anyone?).

TSWLM is among the very best Bond movies ever made. The elements fit together perfectly to create a masterpiece. Moonraker is, to me, the worst Bond ever made. Why? Because the script was terrible and disjointed, the humor was over the top and not funny, and they took one of the best villians in the entire series, Jaws, and turned him into comedy relief.

I have a full review of MR elsewhere in this forum, so I won't re-air my grievances with it here. In short, I think MR could have been great, but the end result was a total disaster, the worst film in the entire series.

Joel

8 Reply by markdown

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Re: TSWLM v MR

mythrenegade wrote:

Just because a movie is similar doesn't mean it is as good. There are scores of james bond pretender films that have tried to copy the formula and failed (VI Warshawski anyone?).

TSWLM is among the very best Bond movies ever made. The elements fit together perfectly to create a masterpiece. Moonraker is, to me, the worst Bond ever made. Why? Because the script was terrible and disjointed, the humor was over the top and not funny, and they took one of the best villians in the entire series, Jaws, and turned him into comedy relief.

I have a full review of MR elsewhere in this forum, so I won't re-air my grievances with it here. In short, I think MR could have been great, but the end result was a total disaster, the worst film in the entire series.

Joel

the point i was making was that some of the elements for which MR is criticised are also present in TSWLM. for example a lot of people are unhappy with the double taking pigeon but i think the reaction of the dog when bond's car emerges onto the beach in TSWLM is equally ridiculous, and it's inclusion in a supposedly better scripted film is much less forgiveable.

9 Reply by Moore Not Less

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Re: TSWLM v MR

mythrenegade wrote:

TSWLM is among the very best Bond movies ever made. The elements fit together perfectly to create a masterpiece. Moonraker is, to me, the worst Bond ever made. Why? Because the script was terrible and disjointed, the humor was over the top and not funny, and they took one of the best villians in the entire series, Jaws, and turned him into comedy relief.

I have a full review of MR elsewhere in this forum, so I won't re-air my grievances with it here. In short, I think MR could have been great, but the end result was a total disaster, the worst film in the entire series.

Joel

Me thinks you are slightly exaggerating about Moonraker. I agree that the silliness, Jaws, his cringeworthy romance with Dolly, and the laser battle in space detract heavily from what could have been one of the best films in the series.

Yes, there's a lot wrong with MR, but to call it a total disaster is unfair, in my opinion. For example, the centrifuge scene, the pheasant shoot and Corinne Dufour's death are very worthy of any Bond film. Hugo Drax is one of the better villain's with some of the most memorable lines. The sets and location's combined are as good if not better than any Bond film. And John Barry's score is one of the best in the series.

As far as comparing MR with TSWLM. For me, TSWLM is the best Bond movie ever made. The elements do indeed fit perfectly to create a masterpiece. MR is at the low end of the scale, but not the worst film in the entire series.

10 Reply by mythrenegade

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Re: TSWLM v MR

Moore Not Less wrote:
mythrenegade wrote:

TSWLM is among the very best Bond movies ever made. The elements fit together perfectly to create a masterpiece. Moonraker is, to me, the worst Bond ever made. Why? Because the script was terrible and disjointed, the humor was over the top and not funny, and they took one of the best villians in the entire series, Jaws, and turned him into comedy relief.

I have a full review of MR elsewhere in this forum, so I won't re-air my grievances with it here. In short, I think MR could have been great, but the end result was a total disaster, the worst film in the entire series.

Joel

Me thinks you are slightly exaggerating about Moonraker. I agree that the silliness, Jaws, his cringeworthy romance with Dolly, and the laser battle in space detract heavily from what could have been one of the best films in the series.

Yes, there's a lot wrong with MR, but to call it a total disaster is unfair, in my opinion. For example, the centrifuge scene, the pheasant shoot and Corinne Dufour's death are very worthy of any Bond film. Hugo Drax is one of the better villain's with some of the most memorable lines. The sets and location's combined are as good if not better than any Bond film. And John Barry's score is one of the best in the series.

As far as comparing MR with TSWLM. For me, TSWLM is the best Bond movie ever made. The elements do indeed fit perfectly to create a masterpiece. MR is at the low end of the scale, but not the worst film in the entire series.

The problem with Moonraker is that some of the elements are there, and it has a few good bits, but it is thrown together into one disjointed mess. I realize this opinion is not shared by many, but I find Drax to be a very poor villian. He reminds me of a fat gumby.

I love the pheasant shoot and the scenes in Brazil, the only place where Jaws is properly used (until the tram crash). The scenery is is spectacular, and I loved the reprise of the 007 theme from the early days (used in the boat chase). I have a particular fondness as well because I've been to Sugar Loaf, looked at the planes taking off from the airport, ridden that tram and eaten at the restaurant at the bottom (got a cheeseburger that included a fried egg).

I liked the scenes in venice, and liked the idea of the gondola that can drive out of the water. The problem is that what could have been a neat scene was destroyed by a lot of stupid humor instead of being a cool bond moment. In TSWLM when he drove out of the water it was neat because we had never seen it before. The very next movie they reuse the gag, pump up the humor, and it must be better right? Wrong.

It's interesting, because I had never noticed how many similarities there were between the two movies, and it makes me like Moonraker even less. Another poster said it right "It's just the same, but BIGGER and BETTER and FUNNIER" and it just doesn't work. This is proof that Bond is more than just a formula. Moonraker is proof you can't just plug a few good bits into a formula and have a great movie pop out the other end...

Joel

11 Reply by baccaret

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Re: TSWLM v MR

to put tswlm and mr  in the same sentence is crazy, just because  it has some similarities,and mr is considered a sequal . the sting was a great movie and the sting 2 was junk.:'(

12 Reply by Krassno Granitski

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Re: TSWLM v MR

Until recently this would not even be a contest. I had TSWLM in my top 5. Now they are #13 and #22. Both are laugh fests with our superman flying through his adventure barely breaking a sweat. WEAK

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13 Reply by Jimmy Bond

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Re: TSWLM v MR

From YOLT to TMWTGG, the producers would each take turns forming the pictures closer to their tastes. Broccoli's YOLT, DAF and TMWTGG have an element of the fantastical in them, and escapist fun, as well as a clear influence on sci-fi. By the time he completely took over, Broccoli basically sought to replicate YOLT in formula, as it was in his estimation a clearer way to gain box-office revenue.

That being said, MR feels stuffed, in every way possible. Its the DAD of its day, yet Ian Fleming's James Bond 007 is nowhere to be seen. TSWLM, while more epic than either LALD or TMWTGG, but just as outlandish, still had a fairly humane character conflict between 007 and XXX, which Moore carried aptly. Also the threat of nuclear extinction is carried off better than it does in MR, which becomes farcical once it reaches Venice.

Basically, that's it. Bond films always had a tendency to comedy, but with MR it became borderline parodic. Despite being bigger in budget and scope, it was also toothless - which is odd, considering it had Jaws in it.

14 Reply by Shady Tree

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Re: TSWLM v MR

If MR was a remake of TSWLM, cashing in on a successful formula, TSWLM was a remake of YOLT: all three are Lewis Gilbert movies with significant similarities in terms of plot, situation and structure, technological fantasy and excess. I somewhat prefer MR to TSWLM. If MR's comic strokes are even broader, its occasional more serious moments are also darker; John Barry's return fully restores 'the Bond sound' to the drama and romance, providing symphonic gravitas and grandeur to counterbalance the tomfoolery and pastiche. MR achieves an apotheosis in this particular style, obliging FYEO to take a different turn next: the 'Lewis Gilbert formula' doesn't surface again unashamedly until TND.

In MR, Bernard Lee's final dramatic scene for the franchise is a nice one (I mean the scene in Venice, not the comic wrap-up at the end) because it concludes with a rather touching moment of mutual understanding and trust between his M and Bond, an apt note for their relationship by that stage.

Last edited by Shady Tree (31st May 2019 22:51)