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Topic: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

It's widely regarded that TWINE is the flick that accelerated Brosnans tenure into complete decline resulting in the his next film calling for a reboot of the whole franchise but when you examine the film closer, I would say it's easily the most grounded and (arguably) darkest film of Pierce's 4 films.

It's saying something when Skyfall steals nearly all of the plot beats dfrom this exact film and morphs them into one of the most critically successful Bond movies of all time. There must have been a layer just below the surface of TWINE that wasn't quite dug into enough to evoke the same reaction with audiences.

I've seen opinions start to sway, within the fanbase, in recent years with many people now starting to cite this as their favourite of the Brozzers. I'm all for keeping that appreciation wagon rolling as I think this is one of the greatest Bond adventures out there and certainly captures that illusive "Bondian" feel throughout.

....and the best he ever managed was a sermon on the mount.

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

It always surprises me when I hear that people don't like this one. It has always been my favourite Brosnan Bond film since it was released. Apart from some issues with Dr Jones and a dull look overall (though Bilbao looks great), I think it's fantastic. I think it has some of the best action sequences of any Bond film. I think the story is quite compelling.

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

Count me in as a fan of TWINE as well.

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

Pacing is its biggest weakness.

a reasonable rate of return

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

It was always Brosnan's best by far to me. Of course some elements could be fixed. An action scene trimmed or cut. Better directing for Denise Richards or a switch with the actress who plays the doctor early on in the movie. But still this is the only Brosnan movie that I enjoy. Goldeneye is too much of an action shoot up movie. I've said it before that I'm shocked that the same guy that directed Goldeneye also directed Casino Royale.

Tomorrow Never Dies also becomes a big action movie after Bond drives the car off the garage. The first part before that is kind of good. And the less said about Die Another Day the better. That was the worst Bond movie for me. Now it's tied with Skyfall.

"Better late than never."

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

DieAnotherDay wrote:

It's widely regarded that TWINE is the flick that accelerated Brosnans tenure into complete decline resulting in the his next film calling for a reboot of the whole franchise....

I've never heard of this widely held view?
I don't even know what "resulting in the his next film calling for a reboot" means,  I'm not getting the cause and effect in that sentence.

I like it the best of Brosnans four films, because it is the only one where story rises above action setpieces. Some of our friends here like it too, but I know some also think its the worst. I guess it depends on what you want from your BrosnanBond films.
Some actually like the all-action no-story formula of the two films with ...Die... in the title. They might be confused by why the action should slow down for boring character stuff in tWiNE.

And there is the very understandable view that Goldeneye was the only good Brosnan film, and it was all downhill after that. I remember at the time Goldeneye was a popular smash at the theatre, and it was suddenly as cool to be a Bondfan as it was back during the days of the Spy Who Loved Me. By the second film, normal folks were back to being cynical about the how formulaic the franchise was, and I dont think gave tWiNE a chance. I remember at an office christmas party telling people I was surprised to be surprised at a plot development in the new Bond film, and nobody believed me! but thats what tWiNE had to offer for folks who were willing to go see it.

Die Another Day had a lot of hype because of the anniversary and Halle Berry. It seemed more nonfans gave that one a chance, and were reminded why they didn't usually go see such films when they went. I would say that last Brosnan was entirely responsible for the required reboot. I've never heard of that responsibility being assignd to tWiNE before.

Last edited by caractacus potts (10th Aug 2019 23:09)

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

Matt S wrote:

It always surprises me when I hear that people don't like this one. It has always been my favourite Brosnan Bond film since it was released. Apart from some issues with Dr Jones and a dull look overall (though Bilbao looks great), I think it's fantastic. I think it has some of the best action sequences of any Bond film. I think the story is quite compelling.

+1. It's my favourite Brosnan Bond, too, and here's why:

THE CAST

It's in this film that Pierce Brosnan gives his best performance as James Bond. He manages to capture 007 both as cold-blooded (when necessary) killer

https://i.postimg.cc/cgWBNqjS/dr-no.png

(perhaps his best moment ever?) as well as a sentimentalist inside

https://i.postimg.cc/KkmBHPkc/bond.jpg

which lies at the heart of Bond's character. He also gets to say The Line twice, the first (and best) time

https://i.postimg.cc/ZvSf5BMC/james-bond.jpg

closely followed by his convincingly ducking a question on Tracy, ie playing the subtext.  The second time is just for laughs:

https://i.postimg.cc/MMyDNZpx/007.jpg

Robbie Coltrane is better here than in GE (not that he was bad there, of course) and his Valentin fits right in with previous quintessential Bond allies such as Kerim, Draco and Columbo. They're all Fleming, while he isn't, but easily could be.

Sophie Marceau has the trickiest part in the film, and successfully conveys both victim and villain.

Robert Carlyle is not a one-dimensional heavy as Renard; there's a lot going on there, and again he plays the subtext (his scene with Marceau for example). I'm

Plus, of course Dame Judi- need I say more?

https://i.postimg.cc/bsbm2Thd/dogtrust.jpg



THE MUSIC

Music always plays a very big part for me in how much I enjoy a James Bond film. It took me a long time to appreciate GE because the music was so bad, for example. Not the case here- David Arnold gets to compose the main theme and it's a stunner (aided by Bond lyricist supreme, Don Black), and in addition provides a beautiful theme for Elektra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1M1zy2M5oE

which with Black's lyrics becomes "Only Myself To Blame" sung by Scott Walker. Almost the old John Barry days.


THE STORY

James Bond falls in love with a tragic heiress, only to have his heart broken when she turns out to be the villain and he has to kill her? Here's my wallet, take my money.


THE FAULTS

It isn't a perfect film, of course. No Bond film is, no film is. The most obvious fault is Denise Richards. Judi Dench, Sophie Marceau, Samantha Bond and Serena Scott Thomas all act rings around her. I tend to agree with SilentSpy above- Serena Scott Thomas should have played Dr Jones while Richards should have played Dr Warmflash. Problem solved. And yes, Dirty Punker, the pacing could be improved. I can live with those flaws though.


Finally, in a shameless bit of self-plugging, this thread https://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/44307/su … nd-themes/ has more of my deeper thoughts about this story and its subtext which might explain why I love it so much.

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

Barbel wrote:
Matt S wrote:

It always surprises me when I hear that people don't like this one. It has always been my favourite Brosnan Bond film since it was released. Apart from some issues with Dr Jones and a dull look overall (though Bilbao looks great), I think it's fantastic. I think it has some of the best action sequences of any Bond film. I think the story is quite compelling.

+1. It's my favourite Brosnan Bond, too, and here's why:

THE CAST

It's in this film that Pierce Brosnan gives his best performance as James Bond. He manages to capture 007 both as cold-blooded (when necessary) killer

https://i.postimg.cc/cgWBNqjS/dr-no.png

(perhaps his best moment ever?) as well as a sentimentalist inside

https://i.postimg.cc/KkmBHPkc/bond.jpg

which lies at the heart of Bond's character. He also gets to say The Line twice, the first (and best) time

https://i.postimg.cc/ZvSf5BMC/james-bond.jpg

closely followed by his convincingly ducking a question on Tracy, ie playing the subtext.  The second time is just for laughs:

https://i.postimg.cc/MMyDNZpx/007.jpg

Robbie Coltrane is better here than in GE (not that he was bad there, of course) and his Valentin fits right in with previous quintessential Bond allies such as Kerim, Draco and Columbo. They're all Fleming, while he isn't, but easily could be.

Sophie Marceau has the trickiest part in the film, and successfully conveys both victim and villain.

Robert Carlyle is not a one-dimensional heavy as Renard; there's a lot going on there, and again he plays the subtext (his scene with Marceau for example). I'm

Plus, of course Dame Judi- need I say more?

https://i.postimg.cc/bsbm2Thd/dogtrust.jpg



THE MUSIC

Music always plays a very big part for me in how much I enjoy a James Bond film. It took me a long time to appreciate GE because the music was so bad, for example. Not the case here- David Arnold gets to compose the main theme and it's a stunner (aided by Bond lyricist supreme, Don Black), and in addition provides a beautiful theme for Elektra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1M1zy2M5oE

which with Black's lyrics becomes "Only Myself To Blame" sung by Scott Walker. Almost the old John Barry days.


THE STORY

James Bond falls in love with a tragic heiress, only to have his heart broken when she turns out to be the villain and he has to kill her? Here's my wallet, take my money.


THE FAULTS

It isn't a perfect film, of course. No Bond film is, no film is. The most obvious fault is Denise Richards. Judi Dench, Sophie Marceau, Samantha Bond and Serena Scott Thomas all act rings around her. I tend to agree with SilentSpy above- Serena Scott Thomas should have played Dr Jones while Richards should have played Dr Warmflash. Problem solved. And yes, Dirty Punker, the pacing could be improved. I can live with those flaws though.


Finally, in a shameless bit of self-plugging, this thread https://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/44307/su … nd-themes/ has more of my deeper thoughts about this story and its subtext which might explain why I love it so much.

Very well said.  ajb007/cheers

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

Now if he‘d only learn how to put proper pics when he‘s posting  ajb007/insane

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

Spot on Barbel ajb007/cheers 
TWINE is my favourite Brosnan. Some truly classic Bondian scenes. It's a film I can watch over and over. Of course it has its faults, as so eloquently put above, but I think it has and will age well in the series.

"Any of the opposition around..?"

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

Coincidence, I was watching it only last night  ajb007/martini

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

caractacus potts wrote:
DieAnotherDay wrote:

It's widely regarded that TWINE is the flick that accelerated Brosnans tenure into complete decline resulting in the his next film calling for a reboot of the whole franchise....

I've never heard of this widely held view?
I don't even know what "resulting in the his next film calling for a reboot" means,  I'm not getting the cause and effect in that sentence.

I just thought that most people seen Tomorrow Never Dies as a well crafted action adventure and solid follow up to the GoldenEye. TWINE is where a lot of complaints start to creep in about the schizophrenic tone, bad bond girl, terrible one liners and the formula becoming stale etc etc.

My other point was that DAD pushed the series so far that the producers hit the reset button with Casino Royale.

....and the best he ever managed was a sermon on the mount.

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

caractacus potts wrote:
DieAnotherDay wrote:

It's widely regarded that TWINE is the flick that accelerated Brosnans tenure into complete decline resulting in the his next film calling for a reboot of the whole franchise....

I've never heard of this widely held view?
I don't even know what "resulting in the his next film calling for a reboot" means,  I'm not getting the cause and effect in that sentence.

I like it the best of Brosnans four films, because it is the only one where story rises above action setpieces. Some of our friends here like it too, but I know some also think its the worst. I guess it depends on what you want from your BrosnanBond films.
Some actually like the all-action no-story formula of the two films with ...Die... in the title. They might be confused by why the action should slow down for boring character stuff in tWiNE.

And there is the very understandable view that Goldeneye was the only good Brosnan film, and it was all downhill after that. I remember at the time Goldeneye was a popular smash at the theatre, and it was suddenly as cool to be a Bondfan as it was back during the days of the Spy Who Loved Me. By the second film, normal folks were back to being cynical about the how formulaic the franchise was, and I dont think gave tWiNE a chance. I remember at an office christmas party telling people I was surprised to be surprised at a plot development in the new Bond film, and nobody believed me! but thats what tWiNE had to offer for folks who were willing to go see it.

Die Another Day had a lot of hype because of the anniversary and Halle Berry. It seemed more nonfans gave that one a chance, and were reminded why they didn't usually go see such films when they went. I would say that last Brosnan was entirely responsible for the required reboot. I've never heard of that responsibility being assignd to tWiNE before.

I have never encountered this 'widely held view' either. For my money uts the second best of the Brosnan films. Also not sure that it necessitated the reboot. First half holds up well. It did necessitate some better writers. Personally i think Brozzer had one more in him, and equally personally I would have liked to see him provided with better material for a final outing.
I hope that Craig gets to do a much better outing.

Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

To be quite honest, I think Pierce could and should have played Bond until at least 2010...

The name is Walker by the way.

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

AugustWalker wrote:

To be quite honest, I think Pierce could and should have played Bond until at least 2010...

I agree. He showed in The November Man in 2014 that he still could do it. He looked better in the film than he did in real life at the time, but in the film he looked no worse than Daniel Craig does now, and he was much older.

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

AugustWalker wrote:

To be quite honest, I think Pierce could and should have played Bond until at least 2010...

He had a 5th film in him for sure.

....and the best he ever managed was a sermon on the mount.

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

The other day I came across this article on underrated Bond films and it made me think of this thread.

http://flickminute.com/most-underrated- … 07-movies/

The author is sticking up for under appreciated entries and has a spot-on brilliant intro about "Best to Worst" lists that slam most of the Bond films. However, he totally takes a swipe at TWINE and calls it an indefensible turkey of the series. 

I personally am shocked that TWINE could ever be considered that bad. One of my favorites for sure and a solid 007 film start to finish ajb007/martini

"Please don't try to follow me"

1. GE 2. MR 3. TSWLM 4. GF 5. DN 6. TND 7. TMWTGG 8. OP 9. TWINE 10. AVTAK

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

I like bits of it (the speed-boat chase, the bank, Electra), but the locations are the epitome of dullness and nothing is ever done with Renard's no=pain ability. It's introduced, then forgotten completely. And Denise Richards is awful, of course.

My Top 10 Bonds: Octopussy, Goldeneye, From Russia With Love, Tomorrow Never Dies, Licence to Kill, For Your Eyes Only, The Living Daylights, Moonraker, Goldfinger and The Spy Who Loved Me.

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

DieAnotherDay wrote:

I just thought that most people seen Tomorrow Never Dies as a well crafted action adventure and solid follow up to the GoldenEye.

I thought a lot of people considered TND a let down after GoldenEye, it being not as fondly remembered as its predecessor though it has its own fanbase (myself included).

a reasonable rate of return

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

DavidJones wrote:

I like bits of it (the speed-boat chase, the bank, Electra), but the locations are the epitome of dullness and nothing is ever done with Renard's no=pain ability. It's introduced, then forgotten completely. And Denise Richards is awful, of course.

I’d say the locations are unique and refreshingly off the beaten path.

Renard’s fate of being “already dead” was more important than the no pain thing. They go hand in hand, but the overall point is that he’s doomed.

Sounds like you have a prejudice against Denise Richards. Is it because of other films she has been in? If TWINE was the only time you have ever seen her on screen would you still dislike her?

Anyway, just thought I’d try to offer a different perspective. I love your top 10 btw!

"Please don't try to follow me"

1. GE 2. MR 3. TSWLM 4. GF 5. DN 6. TND 7. TMWTGG 8. OP 9. TWINE 10. AVTAK

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

Sorry I cannot defend this movie at all really, it just doesn't do it for me.

1. FYEO 2. OHMSS 3. TLD 4. FRWL 5. LTK 6. TSWLM 7. CR 8. GF  9. OP 10. AVTAK 11. DN 12. LALD 13. MR 14. SF 15. TB 16. GE 17. QOS 18. TMWTGG 19. YOLT 20. SP 21. TWINE 22. TND 23. DAF 24. DAD

1. Dalton 2. Moore 3. Connery 4. Craig 5. Lazenby  6. Brosnan

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

Wadsy wrote:

Sorry I cannot defend this movie at all really, it just doesn't do it for me.

I'd be interested to know what are the reasons that you find TWINE such a poor Bond film? And do you enjoy the other Pierce Brosnan films?

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

Golrush007 wrote:
Wadsy wrote:

Sorry I cannot defend this movie at all really, it just doesn't do it for me.

I'd be interested to know what are the reasons that you find TWINE such a poor Bond film? And do you enjoy the other Pierce Brosnan films?

I dont dislike Goldeneye or even Tomorrow Never Dies but for the most part I dislike Brosnan as bond. Regarding TWINE, the Bond girl is terrible, I did not really like the plot and just did not enjoy anything about it honestly. I didn’t even like Electra King and how she is supposed to be this innocent victim until we find out the truth.

1. FYEO 2. OHMSS 3. TLD 4. FRWL 5. LTK 6. TSWLM 7. CR 8. GF  9. OP 10. AVTAK 11. DN 12. LALD 13. MR 14. SF 15. TB 16. GE 17. QOS 18. TMWTGG 19. YOLT 20. SP 21. TWINE 22. TND 23. DAF 24. DAD

1. Dalton 2. Moore 3. Connery 4. Craig 5. Lazenby  6. Brosnan

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

I hadn't seen this topic until it recently resurfaced, and I felt I'd add my two cents to the discussion that went on a few months ago.

The first time I saw TWINE I went into it massively excited, it was only the second Bond film to be released after I had discovered the series. I grew up in a small South African town and we seldom went to the cinema at that time so I watched the film on home video, and although I enjoyed is, something about it felt a little off. Somehow the film had subverted my expectations and delivered something that I wasn't anticipating.

Over the years and subsequent viewings, my appreciation for TWINE steadily grew as I discovered all of its strengths, and in many instances the things that caught me off guard the first time I saw it were the things that I appreciated later on.

Firstly, I definitely think that this film is Brosnan at this best. His Bond has to go through a lot in this film, from physical injury, to emotional vulnerability and having to kill a woman that he has fallen for. I probably wasn't expecting to see a Bond stripped of some of the unflappability that I was used to.

Another moment is the Q scene...which has an odd and eerie ending as Desmond Llewellyn takes his final bow in the series. The tragic event of Llewelyn's death not long after filming made this extra poignant.

The Elektra-Bond relationship is quite a unique one in the series. Her transition from victim to villain was actually quite a shock to my 12 year old self. Brosnan and Marceau gave fine nuanced performances, making this relationship believable. Imagine if the likes of Denise Richards had attempted to sell this relationship on screen!

Another element which didn't appeal to me at first were the locations and the look of the film. The locations are quite bland and unglamorous, and shot in a fairly plain, unstylised way. Over time I've actually come to like this aspect of the film as I've begun to enjoy more realistic and unglamorous espionage fiction and movies.

Some of the things which I'm not a huge fan of in this film...Firstly the dialogue. I think that Purvis and Wade did a good job of constructing a story, but the dialogue falls flat in places. In particular some of the dialogue involving Christmas Jones, and other lines such as "Welcome to my nuclear family." Second, although it is nice to have Valentin Zukovsky back, I've always enjoyed his performance in GE a lot more. He comes across a little buffoonish in the caviar factory sequence, and the way he exclaims "Bond, James Bond!" when he and Bond meet in the film has always been one of my least favourite moments. Denise Richards' performance, of course, is a major weakness in the film - I don't feel I need to go into more detail on that point. And I've never been a great fan of the final action scene on the submarine, although to be honest compared to the action climax that preceded it and followed it (ie the stealth ship in TND, and the Antonov plane in DAD) I'll take the submarine sequence anyday. 

My overall impression of TWINE now after nearly 20 years and probably well over 20 viewings is that it is a solid mid-table Bond film, sitting in my ranking just behind For Your Eyes Only and Octopussy. The potential for a top 10 Bond film was there, but a few of the film's weaknesses result in it being a bit of a missed opportunity in my opinion. But there is plenty there to enjoy, and some unusual depth to the characterisation of Bond and his relationship with Elektra.

Last edited by Golrush007 (3rd Dec 2019 06:17)

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Re: TWINE is massively under appreciated.

I really like TWINE ... It is a good Bond movie for his time ...  ajb007/martini

~God Judges Us by Our Scars~