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  • The Domino EffectThe Domino Effect Posts: 3,631MI6 Agent
    Hardyboy wrote:
    I just finished Le Carré's latest, Agent Running in the Field. Like his previous novel, the excellent A Legacy of Spies, and unlike so many Le Carré novels--which can be long and bloated by minutiae--this is a speedy novel filled with snappy dialogue. It's also gotten a lot of attention as a novel that attacks both Brexit and Trump--but, to my mind, this is its problem. There's no depth or bite to the attack: Le Carré seems to simply take it as a given that the two are unmitigated evils and lets things go. In his Cold War novels, Le Carré dissects both East and West, showing they are petty powers fighting over nothing; in The Constant Gardener he magnifies the sins of "Big Pharma" to illustrate the international threat it poses. ARITF's politics seem to have come from bumper stickers and angry tweets.

    I'm a John Le Carré addict and have not only read all of his works, but I eagerly anticipate new ones as much as ever. I've also just finished his latest and while his writing and turn-of-phrase are as superb as ever, his last few books really have really been hobbyhorses for whatever world or political issues bother him. It's a shame. In my opinion, it's been quite a few years since he produced a novel whose storyline and characters were as good as his earlier ones. I still read them because the writing is just so brilliant, but, even when I agree with what he says, I am resigned to being lectured at and disappointed by the plotline.
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,703MI6 Agent
    What would you say is the most recent truly great Le Carré novel, Domino effect?
  • The Domino EffectThe Domino Effect Posts: 3,631MI6 Agent
    I would have to say that the last classic Le Carré was 'Absolute Friends". That said, I've enjoyed all of his since. He's still a masterful writer and I believe that if he wasn't writing 'spy thrillers', he would have won a mainstream literary award by now. Alas, like other genres, those who select such winners tend to frown on that field.
  • The Spy Who Never DiesThe Spy Who Never Dies UKPosts: 644MI6 Agent
    Absolute Friends is the only Le Carre novel I've read. The way he ties everything together at the end, I thought was pure genius. I have quite a few more waiting to be read.
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,703MI6 Agent
    I would have to say that the last classic Le Carré was 'Absolute Friends". That said, I've enjoyed all of his since. He's still a masterful writer and I believe that if he wasn't writing 'spy thrillers', he would have won a mainstream literary award by now. Alas, like other genres, those who select such winners tend to frown on that field.

    I think the Noble Prize for Literature needs to think in broader terms (it's the Swedes, of course :v ). Why didn't a children's literature authors like Astrid Lindgren or Roald Dahl win? Would Graham Greene have won if he didn't write any thrillers? I think Le Carre is a worthy a Nobel.
  • The Spy Who Never DiesThe Spy Who Never Dies UKPosts: 644MI6 Agent
    Number24 wrote:
    I would have to say that the last classic Le Carré was 'Absolute Friends". That said, I've enjoyed all of his since. He's still a masterful writer and I believe that if he wasn't writing 'spy thrillers', he would have won a mainstream literary award by now. Alas, like other genres, those who select such winners tend to frown on that field.

    I think the Noble Prize for Literature needs to think in broader terms (it's the Swedes, of course :v ). Why didn't a children's literature authors like Astrid Lindgren or Roald Dahl win? Would Graham Greene have won if he didn't write any thrillers? I think Le Carre is a worthy a Nobel.


    I love Astrid Lindgren's Emil books. So funny.
  • The Domino EffectThe Domino Effect Posts: 3,631MI6 Agent
    Number24 wrote:
    I would have to say that the last classic Le Carré was 'Absolute Friends". That said, I've enjoyed all of his since. He's still a masterful writer and I believe that if he wasn't writing 'spy thrillers', he would have won a mainstream literary award by now. Alas, like other genres, those who select such winners tend to frown on that field.

    I think the Noble Prize for Literature needs to think in broader terms (it's the Swedes, of course :v ). Why didn't a children's literature authors like Astrid Lindgren or Roald Dahl win? Would Graham Greene have won if he didn't write any thrillers? I think Le Carre is a worthy a Nobel.

    I agree with all your points entirely. I have read that Graham Greene was blocked for years by one person on the committee who didn't like him. All the others wanted him to get it.
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,703MI6 Agent
    After a #Metoo scandal (pretty much?) all of the Swedish Academy that picks the winner were fired/resigned last year. Dare we hope for a new way of thinking?
  • The Domino EffectThe Domino Effect Posts: 3,631MI6 Agent
    I wouldn't want to suggest that there have been Nobel Laureates who were not worthy of their awards (I'm really not qualified to make such claims), but I would certainly state that there have been many people who should have got Nobel awards in their lifetimes and didn't. The Nobel prizes still have such resonance throughout much of the world that it's a shame that the selection process has been less than efficacious in the past.
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,703MI6 Agent
    I've also heard (don't know if this is true) the former leader of the Swedish Academy didn't want to give the award to Americans. I do find it strange how authors like John Irving and Cormac McCarthy aren't Noble laurates. Any other thoughts of more comercially successful Authors who shluld get a nod?
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 3,907MI6 Agent
    I would have to say that the last classic Le Carré was 'Absolute Friends". That said, I've enjoyed all of his since. He's still a masterful writer and I believe that if he wasn't writing 'spy thrillers', he would have won a mainstream literary award by now. Alas, like other genres, those who select such winners tend to frown on that field.
    He writes a good sentence.
    He does detailed character studies, capturing the voice and the worldview.
    He does all this tricky Point-of-View stuff that is really only possible with prose.
    He is very precise in what information he reveals and conceals to the reader, and when that works it is essential to the resolution of the story, like a perfectly engineered machine.
    He does a lot of very artful writerly stuff that far exceeds the normal expectations of genre fiction, yet it still works as genre fiction to the point we can complain other spy writers don't tell spy stories properly like le Carre does.

    Though personally I think fine Literature is overrated. I am more interested in plot than style.
    Like I prefer pop songs that do something clever with the verse and chorus form than experimental music that abandons recognisable structure altogether.
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,703MI6 Agent
    Plot is usually more important than how well the author suses language and style, but not always. I'd say Hemningway often doesn't do plot very well, but he writes so well hsi books are great anyway.
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    I've never been a Le Carré fan, though I did read quite a few of his earlier books. Greene on the other hand was a superlative author with regards to both plot and character and I've always enjoyed those of his books I've read.
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 3,907MI6 Agent
    a page back, HardyBoy was complaining about le Carre's political agendas getting in the way of his storytelling.
    I've only got as far as ...Drummer Girl, and that was the first one I really noticed him making a political point. But I've seen the Constant Gardener film, so I have a sense of whats coming.

    I think in ...Drummer Girl he was very even handed. It literally begins with the innocent victims of a terrorist bombing, and it's a few hundred pages later that we are introduced to the Palestinian refugee population the bomber claims to represent. And the Israeli spies who recruit Charlie are each very different types of people with different motivations.
    Really its fashionable left-wing radicals who come in for the biggest drubbing.


    After digesting that one a few days, I decided it was his best since Spy Who Came in from the Cold. The ones in between tend to ramble a bit and lose focus. Whereas ...Cold was just so damn efficient in building up to that suckerpunch on the last page.

    ...Drummer Girl is twice as long, and may seem to ramble, but its all important to the story's resolution. There's a lot of philosophising about the similarities between acting and spywork, and a lot of examination of Charlie's psyche, why she is so good at both ... its not natural, she may not be quite right.
    And there's so much repetition of phrases like "the Theatre of the Real", it becomes a question of what is Real and who is to say (since our heroes are all professional liars, skilled at believing their own lies). Which leads to the unspoken question of who is to say what is Truth, i.e. the whole source of the problem, the never-ending religious wars.

    There's some heavy ideas being worked out, that go way beyond the expected structure of a spy story, and he makes it all work because he has gotten so good at the tricky Point-of-View thing. That's a variation of the Unreliable Narrator, a specifically literary device.
    And as with ...Cold, the whole is very efficient in building up to the final page.

    So I'd say both ...Drummer Girl and ...Cold could qualify as Serious literature regardless of genre.
  • The Domino EffectThe Domino Effect Posts: 3,631MI6 Agent
    There are so many great Le Carré books, but I believe his masterpiece is "A Perfect Spy". Absolutely riveting from beginning to end, and somewhat autobiographical too.

    As for Graham Greene, Garbel, he's my favourite author. I recently read some of his first novels as I'd read everything else and they still stand up even now, some 80+ years later.
  • HardyboyHardyboy Posts: 5,882Chief of Staff
    a page back, HardyBoy was complaining about le Carre's political agendas getting in the way of his storytelling.

    Au contraire, Caracatus--I said it's his minutiae that gets in the way of his storytelling (the almost excessive detail about daily life in the office, procedures, etc.). In fact, I praised him for examining the political underpinnings of the Cold War and for making a political attack on Big Pharma. My complaint about the new novel is that he doesn't explore the politics of Brexit and Trump--he just takes it for granted that the two are bad and therefore we should be on the sides of the characters who are opposed to them. Le Carré's great skill has been an ability to make readers understand political issues, so we can also understand what motivates characters and helps us understand their loyalties. That quality is absent this time out.

    Just setting the record straight.
    Vox clamantis in deserto
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 3,907MI6 Agent
    Hardyboy wrote:
    Au contraire, Caracatus--I said it's his minutiae that gets in the way of his storytelling
    aha! sorry to misrepresent, thank you for restating in your own words.


    Hardyboy, I seem to remember that you know a thing or two about Literature?

    What do you think about Domino Effect and Number24's argument that le Carre should win the Nobel Prize for Literature if he weren't a genre writer? (presuming I'm not misrepresenting them too!)
    How would you define the difference between Literature and genre fiction? Is there a difference at all?
    What are examples of good books that straddle the two categories, particularly spy thrillers?
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,703MI6 Agent
    You didn't get my point wrong, I can't speak for Domino Effect. Cormac McCarthy has been is certainly an author who gets mentioned as someone who deserves a Nobel. He's written a western ("Blood Meridian or The Evening Redness in the West") and a dark science-fiction novel ("The Road"). Even though the two novels ranks among his best he usually writes non-genere stuff I think. The same goes for Margret Atwood who's written "The Handmaid's Tale" and "Oryx and Crake" that science fiction. I javen't read her work, but I highly recomend the TV series "The Handmaid's Tale".
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 3,907MI6 Agent
    Margaret Atwood is certainly a big award winner here in Canada.
    check out this list of awards! no Nobel though.

    I haven't seen the tv show, but did read the book way back when it first came out, also the Edible Woman, her first novel. and she is a very outspoken local celebrity!

    She might be an example of a serious Literary type who dabbles in genre fiction and turns out to do it very well, maybe like Umberto Eco?
    I notice a few of those awards she's won are scifi awards
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,703MI6 Agent
    Umberto Eco is a good example. There is an element of the fantasy genere in "Baudolino".
  • The Domino EffectThe Domino Effect Posts: 3,631MI6 Agent
    I think a lot of people, including scholars, sometimes struggle with keeping things in the context of the times. Not that I would suggest that Fleming should have won the Nobel Prize, but his portrayal of Britain (and indeed the world) in the post-war and Cold War period has historical value today. His plots and villains may have been fantastical, but the pictures he painted of Britain in the late 40s, early 50s etc, are valuable today. That was likely overlooked when they were published as it was the reality that surrounded the readers' lives at the time, but it is something that is largely underappreciated now.
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,703MI6 Agent
    I agree. Both Fleming's writings and not least the massive popular reaction to it can tell us a lot about post-war Britain. Two examples are "reverse". The lavish meals and how detailed disscriptions of them apealed to people who were stil experienced rationing. The travelogue aspect of James Bond was exciting for a population where most weren't able to travel abroad.
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 3,907MI6 Agent
    edited June 2020
    Black August
    Dennis Wheatley
    The first of 11 novels about the character of Gregory Sallust, who I have frequently seen cited as an inspiration for James Bond.
    I don't know about that...

    This book is more of an alternate future, written in 1935, extrapolating on the events of the last few years, predicting the collapse of civilization. Sallust is off stage for most of the first half, and when he finally takes centre stage I cant say he's any sort of hero.

    Hyperinflation, American isolation, a collapse of European economies, mass unemployment at home has led to civil unrest and Communist uprisings, with the Navy revolting and the government overturned.
    We witness all this from the point of view of a couple of aristocrats trying to escape London, and mobbed by the east end rabble. Our hero Sallust saves them from the toothless hordes, machine gunning into the mob, then invites them along as he commandeers a navy vessel and attempts to flee to the Carribbean. When the sailors revolt, and set him adrift, he instead takes refuge in an abandoned coastal fortress and then raids the neighbouring farmers at gunpoint for their food and livestock, leaving them to starve.
    (see, I don't remember James Bond doing any of that)

    The vision of London in chaos is amazing, should be read to the tune of Anarchy in the UK or London Calling. And very detailed geography, every location named was easily factchecked in GoogleMaps and the movements of the characters all made sense. This is really a post apocalyptic scifi novel rather than any sort of spy story.

    The political assumptions are a bit disturbing.
    For one thing, though Communism is presented as the ultimate threat to civilization, Hitler is never mentioned once even though the book was written in 1935. Instead we have a private partisan militia called the Grayshirts who are amongst the good guys
    Basically Britain doomed itself because of democracy, allowing the EastEnd rabble an equal vote. The House of commons is described as "effete", because elected politicians are pandering to populist will instead of leading the people.
    At the end, the aristocracy restores itself as the natural ruling class. The Prince Regent seizes the radio waves and gives a five page speech announcing all the wonderful changes that shall make Britain great again. The power of the House of Lords is to be enhanced, and the Commons diminished. The position of Prime Minister is to be eliminated, and the monarch himself shall lead parliament as God intended.
    Anybody ever read Atlas Shrugged? In that book, John Galt seizes the airwaves and disertates for 100 pages straight on the "virtue of selfishness"! Basically Ayn Rand's own philosophy awkwardly expressed through the voice of one of her characters. This is the same thing, except that Wheatley is advocating a return to strong monarchy. At least the Prince Regent only goes on for five pages.

    I almost thought I was reading satire, but a bit of online research tells me Wheatley was quite earnest in the views he expressed.
    But damn does he paint a vivid picture of civilization in collapse!
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    Sallust becomes a lot more like Bond in the later books, cp. I'm sure we have a thread discussing that in the literature forum, but can't provide a link right now (will do later, unless someone beats me to it).
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 3,907MI6 Agent
    edited May 2020
    I've got three more of Gregory Sallust adventures lines up on my shelf, Barbel, so I shall see.
    Those books are hard to find, usually if I find Wheatley at all it's one of his occult novels.

    I remember the thread you mention and shall look for it now.
    I was deliberately avoiding it so as to form my own thoughts about the book, but I had to read up a bit on Wheatley as his wacky retro-politics were so fundamental to the plot I had to know if he was serious or not.

    _______________________
    EDIT: yes here it is, one of Silhouette Man's!

    DOUBLE EDIT: following the links in that thread led me to this:
    THE SECRET ORIGINS OF JAMES BOND, by Jeremy Duns
    which argues Wheatley was more of an influence on Fleming than the usual "Clubland Heroes" writers usually cited. Duns was also the researcher who told us about the unused Ben Hecht script for Casino Royale!
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,703MI6 Agent
    In this case it's my next book to be read. Tomorrow I'm going to town to pick up Ben Macintyre's "The spy and the traitor" about Oleg Gordievsky, MI6's most important agent in the KGB during the cold war. Macintyre's books are always great and I'm very much looking forward to reading it.
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 3,907MI6 Agent
    edited June 2020
    Contraband
    Dennis Wheatley

    The second of the Gregory Sallust adventures, and the first to show any elements prototypical to James Bond.
    This is a prequel to Black August. It's easy to do a prequel when your first adventure is set in some indeterminate postapocalyptic future!
    I gather that all eleven Sallust adventures skipped back and forth across his timeline.


    Adventure begins in a casino on the north coast of France!!!
    Sallust spots a magnificent babe, in the company of a physically deformed much older man he knows to be a criminal mastermind, and promptly sets out to seduce her.
    He speculates she is a poule de luxe! (Remember when Lisl Baum was described as a luxus whore?)

    Turns out she and her deformed mentor are part of a smuggling scheme, involving much aviation adventures across the channel, and an unexpected parachute jump for our hero. And again very precise geographic descriptions of the southeast coast of England.


    Here's what we learn about Sallust: he has no official role, despite working with Scotland Yard on this case. Instead he works for Sir Pellinore Gwane-Cust, a fabulously wealthy and well-connected man few know exists. Sir Pellinore sits on the board of many of Britain's largest corporations, trusted by all because he seemingly has no brains, but can be relied on to efficiently and discretely solve any problems they might have with their international business dealings (e.g. smuggling). Sallust was a friend of his son's, who died in the Great War. He works on a freelance basis for Sir Pellinore helping solve his problems, because he enjoys the adventure, but refuses any fulltime position as he has an "independent source of income".

    And I gotta say Sir Pellinore is a great character in his own right, who is about as opposite from M as a spy's boss can get.


    I found a couple of good websites devoted to Wheatley:
    the Dennis Wheatley Project
    and
    the Dennis Wheatley Website
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 3,907MI6 Agent
    The Island Where Time Stands Still
    Dennis Wheatley
    the 8th volume of the Gregory Sallust series, from 1954.
    I could not find the volumes in between back when stores were open, so I'm resigned to having to skip ahead.
    Fortunately, in Jeremy Duns' article, he summarises those books, so I have a sense of what I've missed. Of importance, Gregory gets married to the Countess Erika von Osterberg.

    This volume is not really a spy story at all, more like a globetrotting mystery.

    This adventure begins with a shipwreck in the Pacific, killing off both Gregory's wife and his boss Sir Pellinore. Gregory alone washes up on an uncharted island, and the first hundred pages take the form of a Lost World adventure. The inhabitants are the descendents of the Chinese Imperial ruling class, now living secretly in exile.

    After a hundred pages the current Emperor dies and there is a crisis of succession. The closest living relative is a mute girl living in poverty to San Francisco, so Gregory accompanies his new friends there for another hundred pages, only to discover the girl has gone missing, and there is a series of mysteries and murders involving the Tongs of Chinatown. Finally, there is a long ocean voyage back across the Pacific and up the Yellow River deep into the northern interior of China.
    It is during this last section Wheatley gives us his detailed descriptions of geography, I learned a lot about that River.

    Given his own belief that the Aristocracy are the natural ruling class, Wheatley seems to be using these Chinese imperial exiles as a kind of example of how such a social order might still work, yet he is at pains to show the younger generations long for the opportunities of the West and chafe at the outdated rules of their society.


    In regards to prototypical Bond elements:
    this may of course be coincidence, but Gregory washes up on the Pacific island after losing his wife. At first, the islanders' reaction to his discovery of their secret is to offer him an amnesia drug, wiping away all memories and personality. He actually prefers this solution, as his grief is so painful he would prefer to forget all, and live out his days in anonymity and seclusion on the isle.
    Does the death of a wife, a Pacific island, and amnesia sound familiar?
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    Yes, no doubt at all. I enjoyed this one a lot but I'd rather hold off discussing it till you've read the next (and last) one "The White Witch Of The South Seas" to avoid spoilers.
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 3,907MI6 Agent
    I wrote:
    The Island Where Time Stands Still
    Dennis Wheatley
    the 8th volume of the Gregory Sallust series, from 1954.

    ...

    In regards to prototypical Bond elements:
    this may of course be coincidence, but Gregory washes up on the Pacific island after losing his wife. At first, the islanders' reaction to his discovery of their secret is to offer him an amnesia drug, wiping away all memories and personality. He actually prefers this solution, as his grief is so painful he would prefer to forget all, and live out his days in anonymity and seclusion on the isle.
    Does the death of a wife, a Pacific island, and amnesia sound familiar?
    Barbel wrote:
    Yes, no doubt at all. I enjoyed this one a lot but I'd rather hold off discussing it till you've read the next (and last) one "The White Witch Of The South Seas" to avoid spoilers.

    It'll be a while til I get to The White Witch Of The South Seas, Barbel, the only other Sallust adventure I was able to find is They Used Dark Forces, which is next on my reading list.
    Just glancing at wikipedia, it looks like Wheatley skips backwards in the timeline for that one, back to WWII. But it was written 1964.

    There was a page I found a couple weeks ago, that lists the Sallust books in order of internal chronology, as well as publication order. It's not just that Black August happens after all the others, they all skipped back and forth in the timeline (like Conan and Flashman both did).
    Can't seem to find that page now, if I can I'll link to it later, because it's a good resource.
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