When did Die Another Day's backlash begin?

DieAnotherDayDieAnotherDay Glasgow, ScotlandPosts: 460MI6 Agent
It's pretty much common fact now that DAD is one of the worst, if not the worst Bond film in the franchise (although I love it to bits) bit when did the tables turn on this film?

Back in 2002 all the initial reviews of the film seemed pretty mixed to positive, perhaps even more positive than Brosnan's previous 2 adventures. Even though most of the critics and fans did point out the nonsensical story, wonky CGI and awful dialogue, back in the day ... it didn't seem enough to warrant it being slated, in fact a good few seemed to even think it was Pierce's best film to date. So when did the opinions on DAD sway so drastically as it went from being an over the top, popcorn blockbuster - to the worst entry in the franchise?
....and the best he ever managed was a sermon on the mount.
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Comments

  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 3,907MI6 Agent
    ...pretty much when the invisible car showed up.

    I don't remember these mixed to positive reviews you speak of.
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    I do. Perhaps later I might see if any of them can be linked to (can't right now).
  • Matt SMatt S Oh Cult Voodoo ShopPosts: 6,596MI6 Agent
    At the time it came out I think put it at the bottom along with Licence to Kill. I don't remember anyone liking the CGI or Halle Berry.

    Rotten Tomatoes has some very amusing lines from top critics about how great DAD was, with one critic saying it's the best since The Spy Who Loved Me. See here: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/die_another_day
    Visit my blog, Bond Suits
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,417Chief of Staff
    ...pretty much when the invisible car showed up.

    Pretty much this :#

    Only time I’ve ever left the cinema after a Bond film and felt WTF???

    First half is good though...
    YNWA 97
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,239MI6 Agent
    Sorry to say there's an Emperor's Clothes approach to Bond films - reviewers tend to give them the benefit of the doubt and add a star simply out of patriotism.
    There's a cosy sort of arrangement that goes on between the mainstream press and movie makers.
    The UK daily freebie gave it 'Try another day?' I think as a headline and yet while Empire magazine slated it pretty much, it still wound up giving it four stars if I recall. The Evening Standard's Alexander Walker gave it the full five stars, but he'd been granted a cosy interview with the producers. He was losing it a bit around that point and died not long after.
    Another UK movie mag - Neon, I think - gave it one star but that came out on newsstands well after the release date.
    TBF from the general outline the film is not that bad you'd think - you get bang for your buck - but for me it was an abomination, esp coming after the very decent TWINE.
    On AJB reviews were generally positive - until I arrived! :D I put it on the same level as Connery's The Avengers, Batman & Robin or Tank Girl. Not just the worst Bond film but possibly the worst film ever.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • DieAnotherDayDieAnotherDay Glasgow, ScotlandPosts: 460MI6 Agent
    I put it on the same level as Connery's The Avengers, Batman & Robin or Tank Girl. Not just the worst Bond film but possibly the worst film ever.

    Really? I don't even consider it a bad film. It has some extremely bad moments peppered throughout but it's still brilliant fun and has many entertaining, well made segments. All just my opinion though, I can easily see why it's pretty despised by most ... The film doesn't do itself any favours lol.
    ....and the best he ever managed was a sermon on the mount.
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    It's Brosnan's worst Bond film. It's not in the running for best Bond film. The faults are clear, and have been widely discussed. And yet, I don't think it deserves all the vitriol it has suffered (much of which is in retrospect). There is much to enjoy, especially in the first half. I like the whole Raoul sequence; the sword fight is good; Bond losing for once and being imprisoned is a startling opening. The whole thing goes downhill once we reach Iceland, undeniably, but even there a few good moments stand out (Bond telling Frost that the guards left, for example).
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 3,907MI6 Agent
    What I remember at the time was hype, not good reviews.
    News articles hyped the dual anniversaries, told us there were references to each previous film to watch for, and Halle Berry. Berry had just won the Oscar and was being suggested as the star of a spin-off series.

    Goldeneye was the last Bondfilm to get that much hype on its release. The two in between seem to have just been noticed by people who already went to every Bondfilm. Whereas as a much hyped anniversary film, DAD brought people to the theatre who had not seen a Bondfilm for years, much like the later SkyFall also did.
    Barbel wrote:
    It's Brosnan's worst Bond film.
    not that I can do the ranking thing, but I'd say it is better than Tomorrow Never Dies. The first half is mostly good stuff, some of it very clever and subversive of the genre expectations. TND had the brief scene with Dr Kaufman, and the long handcuff chase sequence, and those are the only two parts that I'd say are keepers. They don't add up to as much good content as there was in the 1st half of DAD, nor are they so interesting.
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,417Chief of Staff
    Barbel wrote:
    …the sword fight is good…

    It’s not...it’s bloody awful X-(
    YNWA 97
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    Well, I enjoy it. And just to continue being contrary, I love TND.
  • SpectreOfDefeatSpectreOfDefeat Posts: 404MI6 Agent
    Die Another Day is disappointing, but for me it manages to clear the hurdle of being the worst Bond film. At least three others off the top of my head- DAF, QOS and AVTAK- compete for that prize. DAD has a solid first half, with a shocking twist in Bond failing his mission and getting captured. There's strong character tensions between Bond and M, a memorable and feisty Bond girl in Jinx, a decent villain introduction with the creative and fast-paced sword fight, and an energetic David Arnold score. After Bond arrives at the Ice Palace, though, the film completely loses focus. Graves' plot- get control of diamonds and use them to construct an outer space laser satellite- is reheated leftovers from DAF, with a bowl of Moonraker's flabby silliness for dessert. There's enough good in the first half to salvage the film overall in my opinion, however...

    "The spectre of defeat..."

  • The Domino EffectThe Domino Effect Posts: 3,631MI6 Agent
    I vividly remember seeing it at the cinema on opening day - or close to it - and the theatre was packed and everyone was enthusiastic and seemed to have a great time. People snickered at the invisible car, but then again, John Cleese was Q so no one was expecting the finer points of nuclear fusion to be explained. I still enjoy it now, when I'm in the mood for a lighter Bond that's got great action and is fun to watch.
  • CoolHandBondCoolHandBond Mactan IslandPosts: 6,030MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    Well, I enjoy it. And just to continue being contrary, I love TND.

    TND is certainly Brosnan’s only decent effort at playing Bond!

    I think the PTS in DAD is one of the best ever and Brosnan’s “saved by the bell’ quip is his best during his tenure.
    Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
  • The Red KindThe Red Kind EnglandPosts: 3,119MI6 Agent
    Like many I'm sure sitting down in the cinema to watch the latest Bond film is a super exciting and emotional experience.

    I remember with DAD when the opening scene came on with the agents surfing into a dark grey N.Korea, I was buzzing and literally had a tear in my eye that Bond was back and this looked brilliant! Agree with others, the first half is good with some genuinely great Bond moments and explored some new angles where the series hadn't been before. But some aspects are poor and I'm really not a fan of Jinx.

    The song is the second worst after AWTD.
    "Any of the opposition around..?"
  • ichaiceichaice LondonPosts: 593MI6 Agent
    I don't think it's a bad Bond Film. Compared to Spectre it's a masterpiece.
    Yes. Considerably!
  • DieAnotherDayDieAnotherDay Glasgow, ScotlandPosts: 460MI6 Agent
    ichaice wrote:
    I don't think it's a bad Bond Film. Compared to Spectre it's a masterpiece.

    Especially in the action department -{
    ....and the best he ever managed was a sermon on the mount.
  • Charmed & DangerousCharmed & Dangerous Posts: 7,358MI6 Agent
    I remember the cover of Empire magazine hailed it with the line 'Best Bond ever?'

    I recall really enjoying it at the cinema. Brosnan gives his usual energetic performance, he looks great in it, and the scenes with M and Q in the abandoned underground station are spot on, as are the scenes when the traitor is revealed. Sure, the cgi and the car's invisibility are cheesy, and I agree the theme is on a par with AWTD. But it's great fun and doesn't take itself too seriously, much like DAF.

    And it has Halle Berry. And Rosamund Pike. ;%
    "How was your lamb?" "Skewered. One sympathises."
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    I remember OHMSS being unpopular at the time and for years afterwards. Gradually its reputation grew and of course today it's highly rated.
    These things go in waves- perhaps DAD is in line for a rise in its popularity and we are seeing the first signs of that here? :007)
  • CoolHandBondCoolHandBond Mactan IslandPosts: 6,030MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    I remember OHMSS being unpopular at the time and for years afterwards. Gradually its reputation grew and of course today it's highly rated.
    These things go in waves- perhaps DAD is in line for a rise in its popularity and we are seeing the first signs of that here? :007)

    It seemed like I was a lone voice in championing the merits of the OHMSS way back in the mists of time, only my father agreed that it was something special. My circle of acquaintances at that time were unimpressed.

    I feel the same way about SP, except I won’t be around when it gets the plaudits it deserves. It’s not as good as those first 6 Bond’s but I have a feeling it will generate a special feeling in a few decades time.
    Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
  • JTMJTM Posts: 3,027MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    These things go in waves- perhaps DAD is in line for a rise in its popularity and we are seeing the first signs of that here? :007)

    Our DAD rewatch was definitely an example of that. I recall a few members, myself included, posting afterwards that the film was quite enjoyable and certainly not as horrible/apocalypse causing as remembered.
  • DieAnotherDayDieAnotherDay Glasgow, ScotlandPosts: 460MI6 Agent
    The least enjoyable part or the film for me has always been the climax on Graves' plane. The fist fights and that are pretty decent but the ending, with Bond and Jinx escaping the hideous burning wreck on that stalling chopper is honestly the worst offender in the flick, for me. You hardly ever hear that part spoke of in early reviews ... or even contemporary ones. The main points of criticism are always aimed at the invisible car and tsunami surfing :)) and yeah, while those are obviously low points, the entertainment factor is still off the charts in those scenes. The ending is so much and worse in my eyes :s
    ....and the best he ever managed was a sermon on the mount.
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 26,417Chief of Staff
    Barbel wrote:
    Well, I enjoy it.

    To quote Algernon “lucky bloody you:))

    It’s just...horrible...you can see each of them waiting for the next strike of the sword - it’s like they are ready for it WAY too far in advance, it’s just doesn’t flow at all - far too stilted...and some of the ‘moves’ around the actual swordfight X-( the forward leap and roll towards the end is just cringeworthy, for example :o
    Barbel wrote:
    And just to continue being contrary, I love TND.

    Now, I agree with you here {[]
    It’s probably Brozza’s best turn as Bond -{
    YNWA 97
  • Bill 008Bill 008 Posts: 3MI6 Agent
    In answer to the original question, I think it has been at least a decade since everyone decided to trash anything and everything to do with DAD, and agree that it has some of the worst moments in the Bond films. Also agree that the first half of the film is decent Bond, at least until Iceland, or until introduction of the invisible car (truly a WTF moment). I love Halle Berry but think she was miscast (she never would have done it, but my personal choice would have been Angelina Jolie). Second half definitely needed a rewrite (get rid of space crap, robosuit, Iceland, etc.).

    I'm also probably alone in this opinion, but I like Madonna's Die Another Day theme song, and while she's not an actress, I didn't think her cameo was that bad. Keep in mind that the song went top 10 around the world, reaching #8 in the US and #1 in several countries.

    Overall I think DAD is kinda fun, kinda bad, with some laughs and cringing along the way, but okay for an occasional watch.
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 3,907MI6 Agent
    Madonna's song isnt bad in and of itself, its got a glitchy techno groove that seems actually appropriate to the transgressive nature of the torture scenes shown during the credits.
    But it sounds nothing like a Bond theme, and I always want my Bond films to have a song that has that sound.

    Nothing wrong with her cameo. She delivers maybe three lines of exposition, basically introducing the two villains and explaining Blades, and sets up the swordfight. Also she had Bond lace her up, which is a bit kinky and nice. Otherwise she gets no more screentime than the expert who explained what gold was at the beginning of Goldfinger, or similar such expository characters, and is not required to do any actual acting.
  • zaphod99zaphod99 Posts: 1,415MI6 Agent
    Sir Miles wrote:
    ...pretty much when the invisible car showed up.

    Pretty much this :#

    Only time I’ve ever left the cinema after a Bond film and felt WTF???

    First half is good though...

    Thats what makes it so disappointing, the first half is very good but the rest just feels lazy and uninspired.
    Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.
  • silvertoesilvertoe Posts: 34MI6 Agent
    Best moment...the PTS, worst moment...The rest of it. :#
    ive smelt that aftershave before and both times ive smelt a rat
  • DieAnotherDayDieAnotherDay Glasgow, ScotlandPosts: 460MI6 Agent
    silvertoe wrote:
    Best moment...the PTS, worst moment...The rest of it. :#

    That's Moonraker for me. :D
    ....and the best he ever managed was a sermon on the mount.
  • silvertoesilvertoe Posts: 34MI6 Agent
    silvertoe wrote:
    Best moment...the PTS, worst moment...The rest of it. :#

    That's Moonraker for me. :D
    Agreed, Moonraker both sucks and blows
    ive smelt that aftershave before and both times ive smelt a rat
  • Lady RoseLady Rose London,UKPosts: 2,667MI6 Agent
    ...pretty much when the invisible car showed up.

    Same here.

    I also thought that Toby Stephens was a particularly poor villain and we could have done without Madonna ( though I actually like the theme song).

    It was made at the time of Bond's 40th Anniversary and I think they threw the kitchen sink at it. I know 'less is more' has never been a Bond mantra but DAD was OTT even for a Bond film. I've also never liked the title.

    Still, I've watched it more times than QoS. :v
  • rennervisionrennervision Posts: 106MI6 Agent
    I've never fully understood the hate for the invisible car in a franchise that once launched rockets from a hollowed-out volcano and captured other rockets. There's outlandish Bond films and there's more down-to-Earth Bond films. This one was one of the more outlandish.

    Let's not forget - Timothy Dalton's Aston Martin in TLD shot frickin' lasers. That gets a pass for some reason.

    I even thought of this car while watching another movie earlier this year. I don't want to outright name it or I'm afraid i'll spoil it somewhat, but it's one of the few that have been out in early 2020 and was very successful. It used technology based on this car and no one raised any ruckus about it. :) Name of the other movie is spoilerized below...
    The Invisible Man
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