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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

For a long time I've thought there should be a special thread for  BL and the
Other " Classic"  fans, who could reminisce about life, the universe,  stuff like
That !           
Then it would keep them off the others for the young dudes like me !  ajb007/lol

“God has given you one face, and you make yourself another"

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

Came across this Daily Mail interview with Ian Ogilvy (published on 21st November 2014) that you may not be aware of. The interview was to promote his new film We Still Kill The Old Way, in which he plays a retired English gangster. But a number of other things are commented on, including the break up of his first marriage, his relationships with other women, his drinking problem. Of more relevance to us at AJB, he comments on James Bond and The Saint.

On Bond: "The head of publicity told me, 'If we wanted another Roger Moore type, you'd be it, but we want another Sean Connery' and that's where Tim Dalton came in. I was enormously relieved, as I didn't think I had the gravitas for it. I was too lightweight an actor."

On The Saint: "I think attempts to revive The Saint are laudable, and I'm always willing to tag along if anybody wants me. They attempted to revive it again last year but it sank without trace. Roger Moore and I even had cameos. I was the bad guy, but without a knuckleduster this time. To tell you the truth, I kind of miss it."

The Saint? No, I was more of a sinner:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic … mbled.html

Moore Not Less 4371 posts (2002 - 2007)       Moore Than (2012 - 2016)

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

Moore Than wrote:

Came across this Daily Mail interview with Ian Ogilvy (published on 21st November 2014) that you may not be aware of. The interview was to promote his new film We Still Kill The Old Way, in which he plays a retired English gangster. But a number of other things are commented on, including the break up of his first marriage, his relationships with other women, his drinking problem. Of more relevance to us at AJB, he comments on James Bond and The Saint.

On Bond: "The head of publicity told me, 'If we wanted another Roger Moore type, you'd be it, but we want another Sean Connery' and that's where Tim Dalton came in. I was enormously relieved, as I didn't think I had the gravitas for it. I was too lightweight an actor."

On The Saint: "I think attempts to revive The Saint are laudable, and I'm always willing to tag along if anybody wants me. They attempted to revive it again last year but it sank without trace. Roger Moore and I even had cameos. I was the bad guy, but without a knuckleduster this time. To tell you the truth, I kind of miss it."

The Saint? No, I was more of a sinner:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic … mbled.html

Interesting piece Moore Than. Thanks for posting ajb007/martini

"Any of the opposition around..?"

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

Moore Than wrote:
hot crossed bond wrote:

check out the persuaders too! there something that could be made today

There was talk a few years back of a Persuaders film starring Ben Stiller and Steve Coogan but it came to nothing.

Probably just as well because I have an awful lot of affection for The Persuaders TV series, it made a big impression on me as I was entering my teen years. Roger and Tony were great together, loved the cars, loved John Barry's theme, loved Ken Thorne's incidental music. Undoubtedly, it remains a big personal favourite with a high sentimental value.

If it was going to star those two, then it's probably for the best that it was laid to rest.

1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

I'm bumping this ancient Saint thread, because there's some fine and learned discussion, and it went on longer than other more recent Saint threads.
Whatever happened to Willie Garvin? he had an encyclopedic knowledge of exactly the kind of pop culture I like to learn about when I come to this forum

for the record, two other more recent Saint threads:
Jason's Avengers and the Saint thread, which was mostly that one member reviewing episodes from the two series, but also discussion of some related shows and a good explanation of ITV for us colonists
and
this thread specifically on Leslie Charteris's books

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

and the reason I have bumped...

the other night I watched the long delayed 2013-ish pilot for a new Saint series.
The pilot was made in 2013, and when it was not sold it was shelved for four years, then was eventually released after Roger Moore's death. Roger was one of the producers.
It's on Netflix at the moment if anybody else wants to watch it
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e8/The_Saint_%282017_film%29.jpg

I've never heard of most of these actors...
Adam Rayner plays Templar. Eliza Dushku plays Patricia Holm, Templar's girlfriend from the early novels. Here she has been updated to a genius computer hacker and international adventuress in her own right. Thomas Kretschmann plays Rayt Marius, who was a villain in the early novels.
Ian Ogilvie, who played Templar in the 1970s is the main villain. The big baddy behind the other baddies is revealed near the end but I shall not spoil the surprise.

Much of the story is flashback, telling Templar's origin story, and tying him and his family to the original Knights Templar. I guess the origin story content is justified in that this could have been the beginning of a new series.
Value judgement wise I must say I found most of the pilot mediocre and derivative, and neither evocative of the books (despite the authentic character names) or the Roger Moore teevee series. A lot of the ideas seem borrowed from Batman (the origin flashbacks) or Mission impossible (the heist scenes), And Patricia Holme is so very competent she actually leaves our hero very little to do.

But worth watching as it is the last thing our Roger worked on.

Any body else seen it or have thoughts?



________________________________
EDIT: Eliza Dushku I have seen elsewhere:
She plays an FBI agent on an episode of the Big Bang Theory!!!
She's the one who does the background check on Howard when he applies to work with NASA, if you've ever seen that one.
So... another spy role, cool!

Last edited by caractacus potts (18th Aug 2019 14:58)

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

Just watched the first episode and it was pretty enjoyable. As others says, pretty clear that Roger Moore plays Roger Moore.

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

I've been reading James Chapman's book Saints and Avengers: British Adventure Series of the 1960s.

The third chapter is all about the Saint, including fictional antecedents (Raffles, the Scarlet Pimpernal, Bulldog Drummond), and shows the Saint was not the first of his type, but the longest lasting by far. I shall try to summarise, as Chapman doesn't just discuss the tv series but covers the whole history of the character.

Charteris' books are divided into five distinct periods, and the Moore tv series is consistent with the then contemporary fifth period (referred to as "Cosmopolitan Saint"), where Templar was operating alone, perpetually on the move from country to country, hotel to hotel.

The RKO b-movie film series (1938-1941) is covered, with Templar being portrayed by Louis Hayward, George Sanders,  and Hugh Sinclair in turn, as well as a 1954 early Hammer production starring again Louis Hayward. Also there were various radio series from 1939-1951 in the UK and the States.
Has anybody seen any of these early b-movie Saints?


In the late 50s the b-movie industry was being replaced by tv, and Charteris turned down several offers for the tv rights until agreeing to the Roger Moore series. Most of the first two seasons were based on stories from the books, going back to the vary early days, and the books were still occasionally adapted  for later seasons as well as some all-new Charteris material. Charteris also composed the theme music.

Templar's character in the show is less of an outlaw than he was in the novels, often working undercover for the police or the secret service. Examples are given where novels have been changed in their adaptation to give Templar official sanction for his actions.

The author James Chapman doesn't seem to like Moore much, repeating the cliche that Moore's entire acting technique consists of raising one eyebrow, and characterising him as "square". (Chapman also wrote a book about the Bond films, so I wonder what he has to say about Moore there?). He does however repeatedly claim Moore was the most popular tv actor in the world during the 60s (seriously? I have never heard this before).

Two different two-part episodes near the end (The Fiction Makers and Vendetta for the Saint) were repackaged and released cinematically, following the precedent of the Man from UNCLE, but Chapman points out these episodes were given unique credits and music, so likely were always intended as films and split into tv episodes as a secondary product.


Chapman then covers the Return of the Saint, as well as a failed 1980s tv series and the 1990s Val Kilmer movie (which he claims makes the Avengers movie look good by comparison). The book was published long before the abandoned pilot mentioned above. Chapman argues the failure of all attempted revivals was because  the character was an anachronism even when Moore was portraying him, stuck in the values of the 1930s, and no longer had any place in popular culture except as nostalgia by the 70s and beyond.

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I loved the New Avengers  and the Return of the Saint ( I have both Box sets ) and I do
agree on screen the Saint was less of an Outlaw, that he was in the books, But I do remember
one of the old B&W episodes, Roger as The Saint, holding up a posh diner party, making the
ladies remove their jewellery, men their wallets and watches, which he sold to donate the
money for a local orphanage. Which as very much " Robin Hood "

“God has given you one face, and you make yourself another"

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

Shout! Factory dvds' website has lots of old teevee series and weirdo cult films available for free streaming,
including...
The Saint !!!

that oughta give you more essential televisual content to keep you busy during this Quarantine.



I been watching the first season on dvd, but have not been able to find the next few, so I shall definitely be taking advantage of Shout! Factory's free streaming content.

I may post some thoughts on that first season soon, but this I must tell you:
I just got to the episode where he says "allow me to introduce myself" and then socks the bad guy right in the nose, maybe Roger Moore's tuff-est coolest moment ever!


_____________________________
EDIT:
The Fiction Makers, one of the two feature-length episodes, appears to be listed seperately
and I dont think they have Vendetta for the Saint at all.
But there's over a hundred other regular length episodes on that website.

Last edited by caractacus potts (15th Apr 2020 19:58)

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

I just read the Saint in Europe, 1953
Seven short stories set round the hotels of Europe, where Templar enters the lives of strangers and solves relatively minor mysteries.

All the other Saint books I've read are from his first decade, since I figured I ought to start at the beginning. Meet the Tiger, Enter the Saint, The Saint's Getaway, etc. I'd always been confused since there was so little resemblance with the tv series. This book is from 20 years later, and it turns out to be exactly like the tv series! All seven stories were adapted, including four in the first season.

Sources tell me Charteris' "cosmopolitan Saint" phase began with the previous volume, Saint Errant, which while set in North America was also short stories with an ever-roaming Templar hanging round hotels and solving small scale mysteries. In that book (which I don't have), each story is entitled with a woman's name, and again these were mostly all adapted in the first two seasons of the tv show.


From this volume, what was in that first season?
opening story The Covetous Headsman, is the one where a woman comes to Paris to meet her brother who she was seperated from during the War when they were children, and involves surviving members of the Resistance.
The Loaded Tourist is the one where he tackles a thief and a briefcase goes missing, which Templar then finds in the shrubbery without telling anybody.
Closing story The Latin Touch is the second ever tv episode, where the American diplomats daughter is kidnapped at the Roman Colosseum and the local police chief works for the Mafia.

But most interesting is the Golden Journey. This is the most objectionable tv episode, where instead of humiliating a criminal, Templar humiliates a young lady because he doesn't like her attitude. He steals all her money and passport, then forces her to accompany him on a weeklong hike through the woods in her high heels, then gives her a spanking when she wont wash the dishes, all played for laughs.
Charteris' story is the exact same plot, but told from the young lady's PoV tells the story of a sheltered person who has never noticed  the natural world before awakening to its beauties for the very first time, and going through a major life change because of the experience. Some very good passages from Charteris in this story, such as a description of the pre-dawn chorus, or the transitory light crossing a glacier high above, too bad the tv producers completely missed the point.

The other three stories (The Angel's Eye, The Rhine Maiden, and The Spanish Cow) were all adapted in later seasons, but I haven't got to those episodes yet.

Last edited by caractacus potts (27th Jul 2020 16:51)

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Thunderpussy wrote:

... I do remember one of the old B&W episodes, Roger as The Saint, holding up a posh diner party, making the ladies remove their jewellery, men their wallets and watches, which he sold to donate the money for a local orphanage. Which as very much " Robin Hood "

I think that's The Charitable Countess, season 1 episode 12, Dec 20th 1962.
Patricia Donahue is a respectable society figure, holding gala balls to raise money for the orphanage. Only Templar remembers her days as an American burlesque dancer and deduces she is keeping most of the charity money for herself to sustain her lifestyle, so he challenges her to a wager between thieves. That scene you remeber is how he somehow wins his wager, as the guests are all delighted to be robbed by The Famous Simon Templar. The orphans are also a gang of street urchins fleecing the tourists, so lots of thievery going on all through this cross-section of society, and moral relativizing of whose thieving is most or least justifiable.


We see Templar's thieving skills every couple of episodes, but his means of support (how he affords all those hotel bills) are never explained. In the books, he steals all the real criminals' money, giving 90% to charity and keeping 10% for himself for his troubles.

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

10% sounds quite reasonable  ajb007/wink  Like Banacek in the old TV series, as an Insurance
investigator he collected 10% as a finders fee. In the UK there are still several
colour episodes of The Saint on the ITV Hub.

“God has given you one face, and you make yourself another"

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

just watched an episode which should be of particular interest to Bondfans...

Sibao
S3E21. first broadcast February 25th 1965
(found here or here)

An adventure in Haiti with much voodoo content,
Begins with a shot of Boscoe Holder (Geoffrey's brother) dancing in skeleton makeup to jungle drums before an audience of tourists.
Enter Sibao, the daughter of the local voodoo highpriest, who tells Templar she knew he was destined to arrive and is able to foretell the future of various other characters.
She is to be wed to a notorious criminal, who plans to exploit the local religion to gain power over the people and build an international empire.
And there is a basketfull of poisonous snakes used in the climactic ritual.

Sound familiar? Think Roger remembered this episode eight years later when he was hired to play Bond?


Also, this is the first episode I've noticed where Templar is explicitly working as a spy, not just an adventurer who solves mysteries and occasionally cooperates with the police. He is requested by a contact in the Pentagon to resolve this case for them.

Also features a dinner-with-the-villain sequence, always the sign of fine entertainment.

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

caractacus potts wrote:

just watched an episode which should be of particular interest to Bondfans...

Sibao
S3E21. first broadcast February 25th 1965
(found here or here)

An adventure in Haiti with much voodoo content,
Begins with a shot of Boscoe Holder (Geoffrey's brother) dancing in skeleton makeup to jungle drums before an audience of tourists.
Enter Sibao, the daughter of the local voodoo highpriest, who tells Templar she knew he was destined to arrive and is able to foretell the future of various other characters.
She is to be wed to a notorious criminal, who plans to exploit the local religion to gain power over the people and build an international empire.
And there is a basketfull of poisonous snakes used in the climactic ritual.

Sound familiar? Think Roger remembered this episode eight years later when he was hired to play Bond?


Also, this is the first episode I've noticed where Templar is explicitly working as a spy, not just an adventurer who solves mysteries and occasionally cooperates with the police. He is requested by a contact in the Pentagon to resolve this case for them.

Also features a dinner-with-the-villain sequence, always the sign of fine entertainment.

If you can't get access via the first link and don't understand the dubbing of the second, this link may work for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMd3Sqy … p;index=55

PS: IMDB Trivia offers this bit of ... trivia: '
This episode is very similar to that of another iconic ITC series, Danger Man (known in the States as) John Drake: Parallel Lines Sometimes Meet (1965); It also was about Haiti and Voodoo, and featured dancing and choreography by Boscoe Holder, (who's Geoffrey Holder's brother), as well as the deep-voiced, magnetic personality of Christopher Carlos (who was a museum director, centred on the island nation's history of Voodoo, as well as it's otherworldly powers).

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thanks for checking my links #24. I know not everyone can see the Shout Factory TV site, so tried to find a youtube link as backup. but I just verified the image filled the screen, didnt think to check if it was dubbed into Spanish!
the other youtube link the image only fills a quarter of the screen, thats why I didnt choose that one. but if its in english itd be the one to watch.

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

It's in English, I'm watching it right now. the episode is quite entertaining. Perhps I'll check put the Danger Man episode too.

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

caractacus potts wrote:

just watched an episode which should be of particular interest to Bondfans...

Sibao
S3E21. first broadcast February 25th 1965
(found here or here)

An adventure in Haiti with much voodoo content,
Begins with a shot of Boscoe Holder (Geoffrey's brother) dancing in skeleton makeup to jungle drums before an audience of tourists.
Enter Sibao, the daughter of the local voodoo highpriest, who tells Templar she knew he was destined to arrive and is able to foretell the future of various other characters.
She is to be wed to a notorious criminal, who plans to exploit the local religion to gain power over the people and build an international empire.
And there is a basketfull of poisonous snakes used in the climactic ritual.

Sound familiar? Think Roger remembered this episode eight years later when he was hired to play Bond?


Also, this is the first episode I've noticed where Templar is explicitly working as a spy, not just an adventurer who solves mysteries and occasionally cooperates with the police. He is requested by a contact in the Pentagon to resolve this case for them.

Also features a dinner-with-the-villain sequence, always the sign of fine entertainment.

Thanks for recommending that, I did enjoy watching it and yes, spotting the similarities to LALD.



caractacus potts wrote:

PS: IMDB Trivia offers this bit of ... trivia: '
This episode is very similar to that of another iconic ITC series, Danger Man (known in the States as) John Drake: Parallel Lines Sometimes Meet (1965); It also was about Haiti and Voodoo, and featured dancing and choreography by Boscoe Holder, (who's Geoffrey Holder's brother), as well as the deep-voiced, magnetic personality of Christopher Carlos (who was a museum director, centred on the island nation's history of Voodoo, as well as it's otherworldly powers).

...and I watched this as well. Didn't think it was very similar to "Sibao" but again I enjoyed watching it and spotting Bond alumni (Earl Cameron, Margaret Nolan).

I'd like to suggest that if you enjoyed these, then watch the Hammer movie "Plague Of The Zombies". Apart from some plot similarities to the above, the villain in "Sibao" is the same actor (John Carson) that plays the villain in "Plague Of The Zombies".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gexMxZjq27Q

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Now I've watched the "Siabo" episode of The Saint and I enjoyed it. Incredibly it's the first episode of The Saint I've ever seen! I enjoyed hte episode and in a few scenes it felt like LALD in black and white.  ajb007/bond

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say that's pretty cool I convinced both you fellers to watch it, that was almost like a watchalong!
if that's your first Saint episode #24 I hope you watch more. Over the past couple months I've been watching them in sequence from the start, and there's at least three more seasons to go...
I should point out that episode is not typical. His relationship with the authorities is usually a lot less trusting. They usually do not want his help, and often make threats over the issue.

I'm now liking our Roger better as Templar than as Bond. There's something almost anarchist in the way he independently determines his own version of right and wrong (I guess that's the modern day Robin Hood angle). It's almost a disappointment to watch the Pentagon ask for his assistance!

__________

As I near the end of season three, I'm starting to question the convention of who recognises the Saint and what they expect from him.


Almost every episode begins with a random stranger on the street pointing out and identifying "the famous Simon Templar". Such people usually ask for his his help, setting the plot in motion. Even though they are random innocent civilians, they all know he is a Good Guy who can be trusted to help them.
How have any of these people even heard of him?

Just about every local police chief knows him already, and almost all assume him to be some sort of jewel thief or more general criminal. He occasionally demonstrates the skillset of a jewel thief, but I don't think we're ever told if that was his background or not.
But why do the police chiefs not know he is a Good Guy who helps people, if all these random civilians somehow know?

Almost every episode he infiltrates a criminal gang, and often introduces himself with a pseodonym (often Sebastian Tombs). Rarely do the criminals recognise him, usually he has them fooled.
How is it the criminals rarely recognise Templar, when random civilians and police chiefs all know exactly who he is? When he has put so many of their criminal brethren in prison, and even leaves a literal calling card? When he so easily travels the underworld the police chiefs all assume he is part of it?

It just seems as if the level of recognition he is given by other characters in the story is exactly inverse to what it should logically be.

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

Since you've read at least some of the books, how does Charteris cover this angle? Been a long long time since I read them.
I see that "Sibao" is based on a Charteris story called "The Questing Tycoon"- if you've read that, how does it compare?

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You're testing my memory Barbel, and I've only read a few of the books!

I've read the first three or four volumes, which are quite different. Those ones are actually closer to espionage novels, and he has a gang that helps him in his very unofficial war against evil-doers. We don't really see any random civilians in these stories so they're not there to recognise him.
The bad guys mostly know him before they meet, That calling card is a deliberate strategy meant to spread his reputation in advance of his appearance on the scene.


The Saint in Europe, a later volume, is the only one I've read that resembles the teevee series, and all the short stories from that book were adapted in the early seasons. They're the only adaptations i can compare.
I think in that book he observes strangers and spots people in trouble. When he does identify a stranger in crisis, he just introduces himself without them knowing his reputation.

I haven't read The Saint on the Spanish Main, which contains "The Questing Tycoon"/"Sibao". The two versions of the story may not be that similar. The stories from The Saint in Europe are greatly expanded in their adaptation (the prose stories are very short), and the "look, there's the Famous Simon Templar" intro scene is one of the elements that is added in the adapted episodes.


The unappreciated relationship with the police is as old trope in these type of stories. Wasn't Sherlock Holmes also less than completely appreciated by the London police?
I'm sure if I was paid to do a job I too would resent some amateur showing off he can do the job better than me week after week.
Still, thats not the same as persistently assuming the vigilante hero is an actual criminal.
(Inspector Teal is supposed to be a character in the books, but I dont think he has been in any of the volumes I read.)

But there's another phase of Saint books that I haven't  read any of.
In the later 30s/war years, Templar was based in the United States, and had left his gang behind (Charteris himself had also moved in real life), and apparently during the war he was employed as an official government agent.
I am wondering if his relationship with the Pentagon in Sibao was a vestige of this phase of Charteris's novels? perhaps a Charteris character from the wartime novels reappearing who had not previously been in the teevee series?

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I can confirm that Teal does appear in the books. Holmes was initially unappreciated by the police, but later they grow to respect him.
Other than that, I'm sure your knowledge exceeds mine.
The very late period of the books was very much influenced by the success of the TV series, to the extent of adapting the scripts into print.

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in the teevee series, I dont think Teal really believes Templar is a criminal, Templar just pisses him off, so thats Teal's way of getting back at him.
But the police chiefs in other countries do often assume Templar himself is behind whatever criminal scheme he is investigating.

Its just watching one episode every night for several months, some of these recurring themes become apparent ... like he keeps using the pseudonym Sebastian Tombs, surely that name too should start to be recognised by the criminal gangs he's infiltrating? but nope, that name is never recognised.
I know I overanalyse, but I also start to laff when I think about the illogical details of genre fiction stuff so much, and its healthy to have something to laff about!

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Re: Recommend "The Saint" or not?

ha! and after all my generalising about Templar's relationship with the police, Teal himself recruits Templar for an undercover mission in the very next episode The Crime of the Century (S3E22 orig broadcast March 4 1965), because his safecracking skills are required. Templar's getting positively respectable!

this episode features Carol Cleveland in a small role.
and, like the previous episode, it was scripted by Terry Nation, creator of the Daleks.