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Re: Gay Scene????

Gassy Man wrote:

But given the stoicism of the guard's response, it seems more like simple childish behavior to get the guard's attention, escalated until Bond "disppears."  I will say, it never occured to me that Bond was "coming on" to the guard.

Exactly.  I've watched this scene more than 100 times, and I've never had any impression other than that.

Hilly...you old devil!

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Re: Gay Scene????

I can never see this happening,Bond a womanizing stud,with 40 years of having some of the hottest women,why would Bond ever consider a man ass.

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Think that is one of the only things they could do to make me boycot the film.

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Re: Gay Scene????

Firstly, I didn't say they were anti-gay "slurs." I said it was sentiment. Most have objected to Bond being gay, and that's fine; I object to it, too. The degree to which a couple of posts have gone in doing it, I think, implies something deeper. And I have seen other stuff on the forums outside of this thread that's pretty questionable.

I hate it when people can't take comments in context these days. People don't want to see a gay James Bond just like they don't want to see a female Bond. I am going to be really non PC and controversial here and say "I don't agree with homosexual relationships", but then again I don't think I should be prevented from expressing that opinion and don't think it should be taken as an insult. What is this world coming to! /me out.

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Re: Gay Scene????

First of all, Craig doesn't talk about filming a "gay scene"; he talks about a full-frontal nude scene which would please his male and female admirers.  That would include my friends Debbie and Mike, both of whom almost self-combusted at the sight of Daniel in swimshorts; it would, however, exclude my straight friend Mike, and heterosexual women like MBE on this very site.  Just as a full-frontal appearance by Eva Green or Caterina Murino would have a lot of the users on this site whooping in the aisles, but would leave me non-plussed.  So let's get some perspective here. 

Secondly, CnB is rampantly homophobic; it's one of the reasons why its founder was banned from this site.  (Though one must ask why such a resolutely heterosexual website is absolutely obsessed with the way Daniel Craig looks; methinks they doth protest too much, etc).  You wouldn't - and won't - get stuff like that going on at AJB, I can assure you.

Thirdly, for 1971, Wint and Kidd are positively progressive; they wear suits, they don't mince, flounce or act like pansies.  They are taken seriously as killers, and pose the greatest threat to Bond in the whole film.  Admittedly, we could have done without the "ooh!" on board the cruise ship, but they're a whole lot more butch than the supposedly heterosexual Blofeld (neither one of them drags up, or has a cigarette holder).  Positive representation means that gay people are represented in all fields.  Would it be nice for there to be a gay in the Bond films who isn't a psychopath?  If the story accomodates it, yes, but I don't fancy a homosexual being shoehorned into the plot just to tick a politically correct box.

And finally, I have never, in all my years, heard a single wink being ascribed with so much meaning.  Bond is not trying to be pansexual, or seductive; he's just winding the guard up by being friendly.  Frankly Klaus, I applaud your interpretation, as it's one of the most out there theories I've heard in a long time and it's made me look at the films in a different way.  Perhaps Grant and the Bond imposter were actually cruising one another at the start of FRWL - the moonlit night, the bushes, Grant taking the man from behind - the signs are all there.  The toilet attendant paying Bond so much attention as he unlocks the cello case in TLD - was he actually hoping that 007 was cottaging, and was waiting to be invited into the cubicle?  And actually, what lead to Bond and that contact being in a public toilet in CR?  Is there an x-rated cut scene on the DVD?  How about NSNA - Bond & Felix emerge from their encounter with Fatima in their underclothes - what went on in those missing minutes?  In fact, how about Felix?  He's a well dressed man who likes hanging out with Bond, buys him drinks, agrees with pretty much anything he says, helps 007 wherever he can, and has never had a girlfriend in the whole series - game set and match I think! ajb007/wink

Founder of the Wint & Kidd Appreciation Society.

@merseytart

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Re: Gay Scene????

Jetset, your insight and wit never cease to amaze me!  But I think you may have Mr. Bond confused with a certain George Michael there. . .

Vox clamantis in deserto

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Re: Gay Scene????

I know you only kidding, Jetset, but Felix got married in LtK, remember? ajb007/tongue

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Re: Gay Scene????

Felix got married to the chick in three's company ajb007/rolleyes

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Re: Gay Scene????

the movie was great--craig doesnt have the look IMO, but i can deal with it, -- the moment Bond becomes PC and jumps on the everybodys gay bandwagon, is the moment i walk away from the series.

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Re: Gay Scene????

Just to spin this a bit *and* I am only using s96024's post as an example to make a point:

s96024 wrote:

I hate it when people can't take comments in context these days. People don't want to see a gay James Bond just like they don't want to see a female Bond. I am going to be really non PC and controversial here and say "I don't agree with homosexual relationships", but then again I don't think I should be prevented from expressing that opinion and don't think it should be taken as an insult. What is this world coming to! /me out.

What if the above post had read:

"I hate it when people can't take comments in context these days. People don't want to see a black James Bond just like they don't want to see a female Bond. I am going to be really non PC and controversial here and say "I don't like black people", but then again I don't think I should be prevented from expressing that opinion and don't think it should be taken as an insult. What is this world coming to! /me out."



Now, is that acceptable ajb007/confused ? And all the usual things, its not my personal viewpoint, just illustrating the point etc. I am interested as to whether or not people would be expected to tolerate a comment such as the amended one.

I am not a militant/banner waving gay person but am always open and honest when people ask me. I understand that a lot of people would turn away from the JB franchise if he was to be portrayed as a gay man. (Incidentally I don't think this will EVER happen)

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Re: Gay Scene????

I have been thinking about a follow up on this thread and I want to first say I didn't want to spark a big debate... I was wondering if the news article had any truth in it...

I also know that what the Bond actor WANTS and what HAPPENS are two different things (Brosnan kept pushing for some female nudity and stuff, as I understand it from some of his interviews,  but it never happened)

I was concerned because the character of Bond is a very testosterone driven man, who in the Goldfinger novel, saw Tilly Masterson and "one of those girls who's hormones were all mixed up" or something like that.  The literary Bond wouldn't even entertain the idea of another man as a love interest... but since the film series has been rebooted, who knows what is in the works?  BUT
I don't think EON wants to tamper too much with Bond (look at the blonde hair thing and what a stire it caused) and alienate their core audience.

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Re: Gay Scene????

lavabubble wrote:

Just to spin this a bit *and* I am only using s96024's post as an example to make a point:

s96024 wrote:

I hate it when people can't take comments in context these days. People don't want to see a gay James Bond just like they don't want to see a female Bond. I am going to be really non PC and controversial here and say "I don't agree with homosexual relationships", but then again I don't think I should be prevented from expressing that opinion and don't think it should be taken as an insult. What is this world coming to! /me out.

What if the above post had read:

"I hate it when people can't take comments in context these days. People don't want to see a black James Bond just like they don't want to see a female Bond. I am going to be really non PC and controversial here and say "I don't like black people", but then again I don't think I should be prevented from expressing that opinion and don't think it should be taken as an insult. What is this world coming to! /me out."



Now, is that acceptable ajb007/confused ? And all the usual things, its not my personal viewpoint, just illustrating the point etc. I am interested as to whether or not people would be expected to tolerate a comment such as the amended one.

I am not a militant/banner waving gay person but am always open and honest when people ask me. I understand that a lot of people would turn away from the JB franchise if he was to be portrayed as a gay man. (Incidentally I don't think this will EVER happen)

I think that is even more unacceptable in peoples view these days. But people can think what they want. Personally I wouldn't be that bothered if a black man was cast as bond. So I suppose I would accept a gay actor. But I wouldn't want the character to be gay.

Anyway there is absolutely no chance that bond will be portrayed as gay anyway. So this debate is pointless.

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Re: Gay Scene????

Nightshooter wrote:

I know you only kidding, Jetset, but Felix got married in LtK, remember? ajb007/tongue

Beard. ajb007/tongue

Founder of the Wint & Kidd Appreciation Society.

@merseytart

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Re: Gay Scene????

ajb007/lol
ajb007/cheers

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Re: Gay Scene????

Fleming's portrayal of gay characters in his novels is far less homophobic than EON's in its Bond movies - the characters of Kidd and Wynt being the main case in point. Fleming's world is far more sexually diverse and relaxed than that portrayed in the films and with far less judgement. Unfortunately movies and television in the 60s and 70s were still obsessed with a cowboys and indians "us and them" approach and it has taken until the 1990s with shows like Queer as Folk for gay/lesbian experience to be viewed on its own terms. The gay character, just like the female, black. hispanic and asian characters have had to fight for their status is something more than "other" in the film world. All I want is for gay characters to be treated like anyone else in Bond films instead of being treated like freaks.

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delicious wrote:

Fleming's portrayal of gay characters in his novels is far less homophobic than EON's in its Bond movies - the characters of Kidd and Wynt being the main case in point. Fleming's world is far more sexually diverse and relaxed than that portrayed in the films and with far less judgement.

I absolutely agree with you that gay characters, should they appear in the Bond world, should appear as characters and not as some nebulous "other".  I have to disagree with your statement that Fleming's world is far less homophobic. 

Fleming was resolutely heterosexual; there was a string of women across the 40s and 50s who could attest to that.  But he was very good friends with Noel Coward (his best man), Stephen Spender, William Plomer, and other homosexual lights of the London literary scene.  It seems that Fleming was very comfortable in the company of men who liked men - he certainly seems to have preferred their company to women, who were there for sex and little else.  The latter trait carried over into the Bond novels.

Yet the gay characters within the novels are unsympathetic and pitied or despised by Bond (the reader's viewpoint on the characters).  Wint and Kidd are far more unpleasant than their cinematic equivalents.  They are violent, pansified thugs; Wint has a wart on his hand that he continually sucks, and is terrified by flying.  Kidd is, according to Felix, "a pretty boy" - after all, "some of these homos make the worst killers".  Unlike their filmic counterparts, Wint and Kidd are sadistic and base.  They give Bond the infamous Brooklyn Stomping without any vestige of humanity, and they slap Tiffany about in the finale. 

Next up we have Tilly Masterson, who is introduced as a Bond Girl, but there's something lacking.  What could it be?  Perhaps her stand-offishness, her refusal to succumb.  Perhaps her lack of make-up, and her disregard for her own appearance.  Nope, Bond realises what's strange about her on page 269 (sensitive readers may want to look away):

Bond came to the conclusion that Tilly Masterson was one of those girls whose hormones had got mixed up.  He knew the type well and thought they and their male counterparts were a direct consequence of giving votes to women and "sex equality".  As a result of fifty years of emancipation, feminine qualities were dying out or being transferred to the males.  Pansies of both sexes were everywhere, not yet completely homosexual, but confused, not knowing what they were.  The result was a herd of unhappy sexual misfits - barren and full of frustrations, the women wanting to dominate and the men wanting to be nannied.  He was sorry for them, but had no time for them.

Why of course; Tilly is a Lesbian (note the capitalisation), and she is unpleasant, rude and ungrateful for the rest of the novel.  When she is killed - her neck broken by Oddjob - Bond's epitaph for her is truly touching: "Poor little bitch.  She didn't think much of men."  Such empathy!

And finally, notoriously, famously, we have Pussy Galore, a Lesbian gang leader whose Abrocats are almost as good as the male gangsters.  Ms Galore looks like a man (Rupert Brooke good looks?), acts like a man, takes what she wants like a man.  She presents "the sexual challenge all beautiful Lesbians have for men" i.e she just needs a bit of man action to get her head right.  You don't need to be a Freudian to get the significance of her name.

Pussy is there to supply "nurses" for the robbery.  But of course it all goes wrong, and Goldfinger lets her live because she's a woman, and she can pretend to be a stewardess.  Pussy has been converted by Bond's manly charms though; it turns out that she was only a Lesbian because her uncle raped her when she was young. 

That doesn't count though.  When she's purring with Bond in her fisherman's sweater, no longer speaking "in a gangster's voice, or a Lesbian's, but in a girl's voice", he says, "They told me you only liked women."

Her answer is so breathtakingly outrageous, so completely offensive, that frankly it makes me love Fleming even more, because he clearly misunderstood the whole concept and emotion and being of a homosexual human being.  Pussy says, and I quote, "I never met a man before."  After all, that's what these Lezzers want - a good bit of man action will sort them out.  I feel a bit sorry for William Plomer; I have visions of Fleming continually taking him to strip joints so he can meet the right girl.

Those are the most obvious examples - I haven't even mentioned the whole Scaramanga/whistling theory, which boggles the mind, or the mention that "homosexuals present the worst security risk", and so on - but I don't want to take it too far off topic.  The gay characters in Fleming's world are freaks who deserve to die; Bond is dismissive of their fate and views them with distaste.  I'm not blaming Fleming so much, any more than I blame him for LALD; he is resolutely a product of his era and we should view him as a historical item.  However, we should not, ever, paint him as some sort of Stonewall pioneer. 

I'll come back to: Eon have presented a grand total of three homosexual characters in the whole series - Rosa Klebb and Wint & Kidd.  Klebb's sexual preference is hinted at, subtly, and the film moves on - certainly a lot more discreetly than the grotesque of the novel.  Pussy Galore is no longer a lesbian in the film of GF, and she is a much better character as a result.  And as I have mentioned above, Wint and Kidd are actually pretty good homosexuals for 1971 - and they are certainly a lot better than the novel.

As I said above, I would be happy to see a tastefully presented, integral to the plot homosexual character in a Bond film - and actually, I quite liked Verity in DAD for that reason; it was placed on the table that she fancied the hell out of Miranda, and she didn't die, and Bond didn't spit on her.  It was discreet and subtle and contextual.  But I'm more interested in seeing a good Bond film than "representation".

Founder of the Wint & Kidd Appreciation Society.

@merseytart

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Re: Gay Scene????

Damn jetset, no one puts together posts like you can.  That last one was absolutely brilliant.

jetsetwilly wrote:

Eon have presented a grand total of three homosexual characters in the whole series - Rosa Klebb and Wint & Kidd.

To these, I would add Sir Hilary Bray.  I can't remember if his sexuality is ever hinted at in the novel, but Bond's impersonation of him in the film certainly includes homosexuality as an element.  Well, at least until Ruby's lipstick ploy gets a rise out of him, and he can control himself no longer. ajb007/wink

Hilly...you old devil!

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Re: Gay Scene????

Thanks for your comprehensive reply jetsetwilly. I have not read the Bond novels as closely as you have. From my single reading of them the overall impression that I got was that gay characters were not being given any favouritism which is part of my point. The criminal underworld is full of freaks of all sexual persuasions - I think I will have to revisit the novels but for some reason I found the portrayal of the gay villains in the novels far less jugemental than in the films. I think what really bothers me is the satirisation of the gay characters in the films - Kidd and Wynt, Sir Hilary Bray in particular. These characters are being made fun of by the fim makers and that bothers me a lot more than the way they are handled in Fleming's novels. The movies make fun of homosexuality which I find more hurtful and despicable than seeing gay characters as twisted and violent.

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Re: Gay Scene????

The Sir Hilary Bray thing is new to me--I always thought that he was supposed to be a stodgy and eccentric geneologist who's so interested in his profession that he really can't see anything (or anyone) else.  So I guess brass wasn't the only thing he was going to rub in Brittany!

Vox clamantis in deserto

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Brilliant post jetsetwilly. Really interesting.

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Re: Gay Scene????

Brilliant post jetsetwilly. Really interesting.

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Hardyboy wrote:

I also wonder how serious Craig was being--he could have just been joking around, and, as usual, the tabloid media are turning it into something bigger than it is.

I thought that was Dame Judi's job!  ajb007/biggrin

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017

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Re: Gay Scene????

When the bloke brings the briefcase for bond and vesper to put in the account details and password. Anyone else think he is gay? (The bloke who brings the briefcase that is) If not that laugh is terrible.

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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Daniel-Craig-shir … dZViewItem

this seller must have been on the CnB site and thought he would jump on the bandwagon ajb007/biggrin

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S_P_E_C_T_R_E wrote:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Daniel-Craig-shir … dZViewItem

this seller must have been on the CnB site and thought he would jump on the bandwagon ajb007/biggrin

I think we should send this to the CnB site just to remind them of what most people think of their opinions ajb007/lol

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DANIEL-CRAIG-TOIL … dZViewItem

How do people think of these things eh ajb007/confused???