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Topic: Question regarding Plot

Hey guys,
I was wondering about one twist of the plot in CR. The point (after Bond defeated Le Chiffre at poker) where Vesper leaves Bond at the table saying "Matthys needs me." - why does Bond suddenly react to the name "Matthys"? Why would it make him rush out to save Vesper?! I didn't get that bit ajb007/frown
(I heard that the German synchro of the movie contains an additional line supposedly spoken by Vesper which might explain something. Anybody knows about that?)
Thx a lot ajb007/smile H.

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Re: Question regarding Plot

Here's my understanding of that moment:-

For one thing, Bond perhaps thought it odd that Mathis should need to see Vesper, and this aroused his suspicions about the text. Secondly, this reference to Mathis might have helped Bond realise that he told only Mathis and Vesper about Le Chiffre's "tell" (the twitch he has to mask when he bluffs); one of them must have told LC about the "tell", and therefore is a traitor - and as Bond can't possibly suspect Vesper at this point, he must assume that Mathis is a double agent.

There may be more to it than that, but that's how I understood it when watching the film.

Green figs, yoghurt, coffee very black.

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Re: Question regarding Plot

Me too

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Re: Question regarding Plot

I agree that Mathis really had no reason of seeing Vesper alone...Bond was his primary contact. Unless the two of them were planning a surprise birthday party for Bond, there was no valid reason for Mathis to request to see Vesper.

The 'tell' theory, I don't care for, since Bond had only his own arrogant belief that someone had told Le Chiffre that Bond knew his tell. I would have simply believed that Bond had made a mistake and lost tthe hand...like he had in the original novel.

Last edited by darenhat (18th Dec 2006 22:26)

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Re: Question regarding Plot

It could be just as likely that Le Chiffre was just deliberating tricking bond with it. The fact that the have the scene where he tells vesper and mathis about what he thinks the tell is, suggests we are to believe that this is how Le chiffre found out.

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Re: Question regarding Plot

Er... except if Bond hadn't 'twigged' that Mathis was the supposed traitor (except he may not be anyway ajb007/rolleyes ) then he'd have sat drinking his vesper martini and not gone in pursuit of Vesper... which would make Le Chiffre's pretend kidnap somewhat pointless...  ajb007/rolleyes ajb007/rolleyes ajb007/rolleyes

And some of you think that CR doesn't insult the intelligence... the film is FULL of stuff like this, from beginning to end.

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017

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Re: Question regarding Plot

Napoleon Plural wrote:

Er... except if Bond hadn't 'twigged' that Mathis was the supposed traitor (except he may not be anyway ajb007/rolleyes ) then he'd have sat drinking his vesper martini and not gone in pursuit of Vesper... which would make Le Chiffre's pretend kidnap somewhat pointless...  ajb007/rolleyes ajb007/rolleyes ajb007/rolleyes

But LeChiffre knows that Bond is a clever man and will work that out for himself - or he just gets Vesper (or himself) to 'phone Bond to inform him of the kidnap - simple really ajb007/wink

YNWA 96

The Unbearables

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Re: Question regarding Plot

But... but...

If Bond had crashed into Vesper and killer her, then they would not be able to do that trick where they key in the numbers into the computer, and it goes into another account, as V would be dead... ajb007/insane

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017

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Re: Question regarding Plot

Napoleon Plural wrote:

But... but...

If Bond had crashed into Vesper and killer her, then they would not be able to do that trick where they key in the numbers into the computer, and it goes into another account, as V would be dead... ajb007/insane

Nit-picking yet again are we? ajb007/wink The truth is that Bond could never have crashed into Vesper, since Le Chiffre worked out exactly where to place her so that Bond would have sufficient time to swerve. ajb007/biggrin

Last edited by Dan Same (20th Dec 2006 15:07)

"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman

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Re: Question regarding Plot

Napoleon Plural wrote:

But... but...

If Bond had crashed into Vesper and killer her, then they would not be able to do that trick where they key in the numbers into the computer, and it goes into another account, as V would be dead... ajb007/insane

LeChiffre would already have had the bank account details and so it would not matter if Bond did kill Vesper - he only needed Bond's password to get the money, that's the way I see it anyhow ajb007/tongue

YNWA 96

The Unbearables

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Re: Question regarding Plot

Which, of course, he could key in when the camp Hans Gruber bloke comes to visit: "Mr Bond, you're not looking yourself today - you seem more handsome!"  ajb007/lol

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017

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Re: Question regarding Plot

Napoleon Plural wrote:

Which, of course, he could key in when the camp Hans Gruber bloke comes to visit: "Mr Bond, you're not looking yourself today - you seem more handsome!"  ajb007/lol

I don't think that LeChiffre would wait for Herr Mendel - do you ? He would find him and steal the briefcase - problem solved.

YNWA 96

The Unbearables

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Re: Question regarding Plot

Napoleon Plural wrote:

Er... except if Bond hadn't 'twigged' that Mathis was the supposed traitor (except he may not be anyway ajb007/rolleyes ) then he'd have sat drinking his vesper martini and not gone in pursuit of Vesper... which would make Le Chiffre's pretend kidnap somewhat pointless...  ajb007/rolleyes ajb007/rolleyes ajb007/rolleyes

And some of you think that CR doesn't insult the intelligence... the film is FULL of stuff like this, from beginning to end.

Who says it was a "pretend" kidnap? You don't know that. I think it's entirely possible that LeChiffre thought Vesper double-crossed him and gave Bond the additional buy-in, not knowing it was in fact Leiter. I think there were several double-crosses involved in CR. This stuff you say the movie is full of may in fact make perfect sense once we know the whole story -- but we'll have to wait for Bond 22. I know it's off-putting to not have a grand finale with Bond changing into a jumpsuit and leading a charge of special forces ninjas, but CR is a different kind of Bond film with a plot that actually is mysterious to the viewer as well as the characters. It's actually fairly unusual for so-called "thrillers." There is nothing so annoying in a "thriller" for the audience to figure out the plot ahead of the main character. For a recent example, check out "Derailed." I had that figured out within 15 minutes. Of course, if the CR conspiracy(or conspiracies) aren't explained in Bond 22, I'll will gladly offer to eat crow.

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Re: Question regarding Plot

Mathis is not the kind of guy that send SMS to give info, that is a terrorist "way of communication", MI6 agents makes phone calls. So, why send a SMS when you can make a call or even better, go to the restaurant?... that was suspicious, hence the running.

But here it goes: Bond needed an account number and a password (that he already gave)  but what seems important is not the account rather than the password itself. Le Chiffre could use his account, but what he needed was Bond Password (which in this point only knew him) to transfer the money from Mendel bank to the account Bond gives (whatever he chooses, even Le Chiffre's one)

And Le Chiffre didn't want to kill Vesper, or even put her in danger because he knew or trust that Bond wouldn't run over her. And even if that happens... Le Chiffre wouldn't lose anything.

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Re: Question regarding Plot

All I can say is this:

If It was a 'pretend' kidnap, then if I were the 'pretend' kidnap victim, I definitely would not be willing to lay in the road and hope Bond didn't have one too many martinis.

If it was not a 'pretend' kidnap, then the goal was either A) they wanted Vesper (in which case it made no sense to dump her on the road) or ajb007/cool to get Bond to follow them.

The only thing that makes sense is that it was not a pretend kidnapping and they intended to use Vesper simply as bait to get Bond's cooperation. It was a ploy to get Bond out of the casino, and since he caught on rather quickly, Vesper was no longer needed so they dumped her on the road.

The problem with this theory, however, is that it means that Vesper was not working for Le Chiffre, and that LC would have needed her alive to get the account number.

I think it's just easier to say that Bond wrecked his Aston Martin swerving to missing the huge plot hole. ajb007/tongue

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Re: Question regarding Plot

Ah c'mon darenhat even I could talk around that... Vesper wasn't a willing victim, they didn't really care if she lived or died.

Still, the way they snare Bond in the book was more effective...

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017

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Re: Question regarding Plot

Napoleon Plural wrote:

Ah c'mon darenhat even I could talk around that... Vesper wasn't a willing victim, they didn't really care if she lived or died.

Still, the way they snare Bond in the book was more effective...

Agreed, I don't think it was a 'pretend' kidnap, punctuated by her obvious struggling outside the casino. I think it's plausible that they didn't care if she died (thus dumping her on the road) but with her dies the account number unless LC already had it. The goal would have been to simply get the password from Bond at that point. I don't see why they risk killing him in a stupendous crash since it would have been sheer luck on Le Chiffre's part that Bond made the 'Mathis' connection and followed them. The original plan must have been on the line that they would contact Bond later and make a 'deal' with Bond concerning Vesper. Dropping Vesper and causing Bond to crash would have been losing the bargaining chip and the bargain all in one shot, when all the while their plan was proceeding 'perfectly'.

Last edited by darenhat (20th Dec 2006 17:24)

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Re: Question regarding Plot

watching the movie again I finally figured something out:

M says "Vesper made a deal with them to let you live that night"
"that night" doesnt refer to the payoff in Venice, which was in daylight anyway
it was the night Le Chiffre captured the two of them and was subsequently shot in front of Bond
remember Mathis is saying afterwards he cant figure out why the killer didnt kill Bond and Vesper too when he had the chance

so something went on between Vesper and the killer while Le Chiffre was still torturing Bond, and Bond was purposely left alive so that he could freely hand the winnings over to Vesper

given that, is it possible that her whole subsequent affair with Bond was a ruse to get him to gve her the money? hmmm, I guess not cuz as soon as he gave the password in the garden she had it in her account...

anyway the scene wheres shes lying in the road: thats a bit from Flemings version of tMwtGG: Scaramanga freaks out Bond by appearing to tie Mary Goodnights body to the traintracks, but when the train crushes it it turns out to have been a blondewigged dummy
still doesnt make sense in the context of this film, the literary Le Chiffre had a memorable gadget for stopping the Bentley: a wiremesh carpet  stringing together hundreds of sharp spikes

in Flemings CR Bond keeps casually wondering about Vespers odd behaviour the night of the torture but doesnt put it all together til shes ODd on the last page, cuz he was more preoccupied with getting her nekkid than learning the inconvenient truth

I think maybe Vesper and Le Chiffre were both being played by whoever Le Chiffre was working for, and did not necesarrily have any loyalty to each other: more like Vespers seductive wiles were the backup plan should Le Chiffres more confrontational methods fail

Last edited by caractacus potts (20th Dec 2006 18:28)

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Re: Question regarding Plot

darenhat wrote:

All I can say is this:

If It was a 'pretend' kidnap, then if I were the 'pretend' kidnap victim, I definitely would not be willing to lay in the road and hope Bond didn't have one too many martinis.

If it was not a 'pretend' kidnap, then the goal was either A) they wanted Vesper (in which case it made no sense to dump her on the road) or ajb007/cool to get Bond to follow them.

The only thing that makes sense is that it was not a pretend kidnapping and they intended to use Vesper simply as bait to get Bond's cooperation. It was a ploy to get Bond out of the casino, and since he caught on rather quickly, Vesper was no longer needed so they dumped her on the road.

The problem with this theory, however, is that it means that Vesper was not working for Le Chiffre, and that LC would have needed her alive to get the account number.

I think it's just easier to say that Bond wrecked his Aston Martin swerving to missing the huge plot hole. ajb007/tongue

No, Darenhat: it categorically does not mean Vesper wasn't working for LeChiffre. There's a very simple explanation: After kidnapping Vesper "for real," she explains she did not give Bond the money, after which LeChiffre puts her in the road in order to stop Bond and try to obtain the password. There is no plot hole there.
A failure of imagination, perhaps? ajb007/biggrin

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Re: Question regarding Plot

highhopes wrote:

No, Darenhat: it categorically does not mean Vesper wasn't working for LeChiffre. There's a very simple explanation: After kidnapping Vesper "for real," she explains she did not give Bond the money, after which LeChiffre puts her in the road in order to stop Bond and try to obtain the password. There is no plot hole there.
A failure of imagination, perhaps? ajb007/biggrin

Give Bond the money? What are you talking about? At that stage, Le Chiffre is in a fight for survival. It doesn't matter how Bond bought back into the game at that stage.  He needs to get his money back, not squabble with Vesper about whos to blame for the situation. Besides, Le Chiffre doesn't call the shots with the Treasury. If Vesper was ordered by her superiors to back Bond for another go, she would have to, whether LC liked it or not.

Mr Potts has put forth a very edifying point about 'Vesper's deal' which leads me to believe that Vesper had absolutely nothing to do with Le Chiffre but rather someone seperate. After all and pay close attention to this: If Le Chiffre and Vesper were in cahoots, then Le Chiffre could easily have been content with letting Bond win the poker game, since he would have known that Vesper would most likely  get his money back. Killing Bond at the game would be limiting Le Chiffre's chances of ultimately recouping the pot.

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Re: Question regarding Plot

Maybe the screenwriters just wanted to put in a scene where 007 crashes his car,and they thought that leaving Vesper lying in the road would make it look more dramatic.

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Re: Question regarding Plot

darenhat wrote:
highhopes wrote:

No, Darenhat: it categorically does not mean Vesper wasn't working for LeChiffre. There's a very simple explanation: After kidnapping Vesper "for real," she explains she did not give Bond the money, after which LeChiffre puts her in the road in order to stop Bond and try to obtain the password. There is no plot hole there.
A failure of imagination, perhaps? ajb007/biggrin

Give Bond the money? What are you talking about? At that stage, Le Chiffre is in a fight for survival. It doesn't matter how Bond bought back into the game at that stage.  He needs to get his money back, not squabble with Vesper about whos to blame for the situation. Besides, Le Chiffre doesn't call the shots with the Treasury. If Vesper was ordered by her superiors to back Bond for another go, she would have to, whether LC liked it or not.

Mr Potts has put forth a very edifying point about 'Vesper's deal' which leads me to believe that Vesper had absolutely nothing to do with Le Chiffre but rather someone seperate. After all and pay close attention to this: If Le Chiffre and Vesper were in cahoots, then Le Chiffre could easily have been content with letting Bond win the poker game, since he would have known that Vesper would most likely  get his money back. Killing Bond at the game would be limiting Le Chiffre's chances of ultimately recouping the pot.

And all that is entirely possible, DH. It may be that Gettis (the guy in Venice) is unrelated to either LeChiffre or Mr. White. Or perhaps he's related to LeChiffre (the problem with his right eye makes me think they may be kin). Or maybe Mr. White made a separate deal with Vesper to keep the money for himself and rip off his own organization. There are a number of possibilities. My point is not to say "This is what happened," but rather to suggest that it's premature for you to characterize these things as "plot holes." We simply don't have all the information. I expect that information will be forthcoming in Bond 22. If not, then it would certainly be fair to call them holes, but only then. I kind of like the fact there there's all this mystery to the ending. The people who want easy explanations are missing the point, I think. It's supposed to be obscure. I'm willing to go with it.

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Re: Question regarding Plot

I liked that scene in OP, where Moore tells the tiger to "Sit!"

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Re: Question regarding Plot

I will use this topic (and its name) to make a new question:

Who was/is Villiers? ajb007/confused (the man according to M says Bond is the best player in service)

I hope all of you excuse my ignorance... it sucks

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Re: Question regarding Plot

Johmss wrote:

I will use this topic (and its name) to make a new question:

Who was/is Villiers? ajb007/confused (the man according to M says Bond is the best player in service)

I hope all of you excuse my ignorance... it sucks

M's aide, secretary, advisor, "Moneypenny". Whatever you want to call him.

Last edited by s96024 (20th Dec 2006 20:47)