TND and TWINE

I think that Tommorow never dies slightly better than the world is not enough.

Does anyone else think this?
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Comments

  • Double 0 ZeroDouble 0 Zero Posts: 30MI6 Agent
    I think that Tommorow never dies slightly better than the world is not enough.

    Does anyone else think this?

    Based on my perusal of other people's Favorite Lists, I have to say yours is a minority viewpoint. But please elaborate on why you rank TND above TWINE.
  • taitytaity Posts: 702MI6 Agent
    I dont rank either movie very highly, but Id have to list TND as being higher based on the fact that it has much better action sequences in it...and that theres no Christmas Jones in it.
  • GoldenBoyGoldenBoy Posts: 7MI6 Agent
    It appears I am also part of the minority. I tend to like TND more so than TWINE. What does it for me are the action scenes. The car scene in TND is IMO one of the best in the series (even if that BMW isn't as sleek looking as a DB5 or DB9). The plot in TND is kinda cool I thought. Starting a war for ratings. Yes, Pryce wasn't the most menacing of villains, but I liked the general idea. It was something new. The opening sequence is also one of my favorites. You have to be a pretty hardcore spy to steal jets loaded with nuclear torpedoes in the middle of the world's largest terrorist convention. Whether that's better than the boat chase in TWINE...well that's debatable. Both were pretty good.

    One thing I didn't like about TWINE was how, while Renard was impervious to pain, nothing really came of it. A good concept, but like the Bond/Scaramanga fight it wasn't used to its full potential. I understand he was ready to die, but he might as well have had a tumor. The scene where he kills Elektra, though, was very well done. That was a powerful scene and one of the most defining moments in the history of Bond.

    Nevertheless, like those who posted before me, neither of them really rank high up there in my books. And TND was the first Bond I saw, so that could contribute to my fondness of it.
  • bluemanblueman PDXPosts: 1,667MI6 Agent
    TWINE, for the couple few interesting ideas and one or two cool moments in it, is just a bad film IMO. Sort of the epitome (pre-DAD ;) ) of how not to make a Bond movie. Apted must've been stoned.

    TND at least delivers on it's clever ideas some of time, and as others above have noted it has kick butt action in it. And no Christmas Jones. :p It's cheesy, but it hangs in a fun way TWINE doesn't. Very watchable.
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    edited January 2007
    I think TWINE is a much better film than TND. Although TWINE is far from perfect, I would go so far as to call it a great Bond film. (Or certainly one that, if it had been cleaned up, would have been great.) I think it has alot of good things going for it including great dialogue, terrific performances and a really good (albeit flawed) script.

    TND, on the other hand, is completely derivitive. It doesn't appear fresh, especially coming after GE and before TWINE. Also, it features one of the worst Bond girls of all time (Wai Lin who IMO makes Christmas Jones look like Hiney Rider), a bad villain and a terrible title. It does have some good moments, so I don't think it's a bad film, but I would never describe it as a good film.

    TWINE is IMO Brosnan's best film, while TND is his third best.
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • taitytaity Posts: 702MI6 Agent
    The problem with both movies is that they are both interesting concepts - a ratings war/Bond falling in love with a villian. However, they are both let down by weak leading ladies, bad scripts and dodgy villians.

    For example - Wai Lin is deemed by some to be a good leading lady, others to be a strong one. You compare this to someone such as Pussy Galore or Honey and very few people are out there to pay her out. Christmas Jones was...she had a nice arse, but perhaps if her occupation had been "tourist in Istanbul" rather than being a full blown nuclear scientist.

    TND has two great action sequnces - the car and the bike. Whereas TWINE has one good sequence (Q - boat) and two misses (ski chase, caviar factory.) Additionally, the arms bazzar provides some nice susspense, as does Bond's chase through Carvers German base. Sadly, both climax's are really weak compared to ones such as Goldfinger or Spy who loved me.

    Many people point to weaknesses in Carver's plot. It does seem rather excessive to merely gain tv ratings. Sadly, Jonathon Pryce gives a weak performance because of bad writing. Its almost shameful to see him in this when you realise hes the same guy from Miss Saigon. Renard has a similar fault, great actor playing a 3 dimension vilian given a 2 dimensional potrayal. Its a bit like looking at a picture of a person rather than meeting them in person. As for Elektra, great potrayal is ruined by the fact that Bond knows her for under a day before he suspects her of being the baddie. They should have made the first half of the movie a love story, similar to OHMSS and have it be set over the period of a month or something.

    Pretty much, its not as if either movie was drastically better than the other. Its also not as if they were good movies to begin with. Funnily enough, people feel the same way about Die Another Day. As good as he was at Bond, he needed more good movies.
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    taity wrote:
    Whereas TWINE has one good sequence (Q - boat) and two misses (ski chase, caviar factory.)
    I actually loved the ski chase. IMO it was among the best Bond action scenes in years.
    taity wrote:
    Pretty much, its not as if either movie was drastically better than the other. Its also not as if they were good movies to begin with.
    I don't know about that. ALthough I agree with you about much of TWINE's flaws (I do agree that the romance with Electra was undeveloped) I think it was a great film and a vastly superior one to TND.
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • Jimmy BondJimmy Bond Posts: 324MI6 Agent
    TWINE is one of the best Bond movies ever made. TND isn't. 'Nuff said.
  • actonsteveactonsteve Posts: 299MI6 Agent
    I'm not a fan of either of them. The Brosnan years to me are enjoyable Bond, lousy films.

    I play a game with TWINE to see how far I can go before switching it off. I dont think I have to got through to the end before switching it off. What I cant cope with is the sheer bad storytelling - the non-important narrative. Why does that bomb go off in the Istanbul safe house? Why are they whizzing around in the tunnel attached to a nuclear bomb. A few scenes of dialogue would have helped. And when they kidnap M you know the series has run out of ideas..

    TND is quite good for the first half. The arms bazaar, hamburg, Dr Kaufman, the car chase. But when it heads off to Vietnam it seems to struggle. Wai Lin is a tedious heroine, we'd seen it all before, and Jonathan Pryce is a pathetic villain. But what threw it for me was the ramboesque antics of Brosnan at the stealthboat at the end. There becomes a time where I just flick on to KD Lang belting out 'Surrender' at the end. By far the best bit of the film.
  • SteedSteed Posts: 134MI6 Agent
    I think both are on par actually. Not cringeworthy or awful, but not classics or even that great either.

    TND has an excellent first half. The backstory of Brosnan's old flame Paris Carver was an intriguing one and the plot was at least something different. But forget about the second half. It's an incredibly dull barrage of action set pieces without any of the style that you'd attach to the Bond franchise- it's as if another director took over. And Jonathan Pryce gets hammier throughout the film- never worse than the bit with him emulating Wai Lin's Kung Fu prowess.

    TWINE I watched not long ago, and while it was better than I remembered, it's still flawed. The Elektra character is very well written, the PTS is excellent (even if I feel it runs a bit too long) and it gave Robbie Coltrane a substantial part in the plot. But the actual nuclear bomb tale is pretty routine, Renard is actually a rather weak villain, Denise Richards is atrociously miscast and the climax reminds me of those awfully bad innuendos that ended stuff like 'Moonraker'.

    Both 3/5 films, at the very best, imho.
  • bluemanblueman PDXPosts: 1,667MI6 Agent
    Don't get the TWINE as classic Bond POV. :s As taity and others point out, it doesn't just have flaws, it's got big gapping holes of anti-story in it. The bit with Bond shooting Elektra at the end is great...but for it comes off hollow because of the terrible lead up to it, the beginning and middle parts of that relationship are so poorly written and staged, I don't have a lot of feeling left for the end of it. It's kinda like Renard in reverse: a villian who can't feel pain, and they don't use him for a knock-down, drag-out fight with Bond for some inexplicable reason (although they try to make up for it in DAD by having Bond fight the cyborg-dude Graves villian...whatever). For all the evil hyperbole, Renard's worst bits of nastiness are...holding hot rocks and serving tea. Woo. Plus, halfway through the film Bond has a gun to his head, and doesn't pull the trigger?! Bad, bad writing. Just kill him, and finish the rest of the story, such as it is. If they intended for some other story thread to happen with Renard, it just didn't happen. For me at least. Should've saved that guy for another film IMO.

    A love interest with Bond as a surrogate father figure (ala FYEO, I hate that--and, why does Bond not bed the pinup scientist till the final scene???), a villian who does damn near nothing despite the great back story, and random and rambling action scenes that go nowhere. This is far from classic Bond IMHO, and more a stone's throw from Austin Powers-type fare. Many good ideas, but without the realization of them on the actual movie screen it's all for nought. Very forgettable IMO (and damn near insulting to burden Bond with both impotency AND baby sitting duties! :o ).

    TND may get a bit action-heavy towards the end, but it stays true to it's concepts, simple as they are. Heck, I don't even mind all the bullets flying at the end, it's as if Bond and Wai Lin are storming Blofeld's volcano from YOLT, only sans ninja army--they HAVE to do it all by themselves, and Bond's little bit of trickery, blowing a hole in the side of the stealth boat so it can be seen on radar, is a nice touch and breaks up the Ramboness of it all IMO. Sure, it's not perfect (zero chemistry between Yeoh and Brosnan, and where's the great showdown with Stamper and Bond???--sorry, but Bond rule #1, if you create a badass henchman/villian, Bond at some point must kick his butt, or you better have a really really great reason why not ala CR), but I can last till the end of it, every time. Spottiswoode made a nice confectionary Bond film, fits in well with TSWLM/MR type Bonds IMO; Apted made a regrettable Glenish mess.
  • Moore Not LessMoore Not Less Posts: 1,095MI6 Agent
    I will take TWINE's flaws ahead of TND anyday. TND is my least favourite Bond film (not including NSNA). It is the film where Bond truly becomes Superman/Rambo. Never has so much weaponry been aimed at one man with so little result. The first half of the film is actually pretty good overall and has highlights like the Bond/Q exchange, the Bond/Dr Kaufman exchange, and the scene where Bond sits waiting in his hotel room. The second half is just plain bad, bad action, bad humour, bad everything.
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    blueman wrote:
    Don't get the TWINE as classic Bond POV. :s As taity and others point out, it doesn't just have flaws, it's got big gapping holes of anti-story in it. The bit with Bond shooting Elektra at the end is great...but for it comes off hollow because of the terrible lead up to it, the beginning and middle parts of that relationship are so poorly written and staged, I don't have a lot of feeling left for the end of it. It's kinda like Renard in reverse: a villian who can't feel pain, and they don't use him for a knock-down, drag-out fight with Bond for some inexplicable reason (although they try to make up for it in DAD by having Bond fight the cyborg-dude Graves villian...whatever). For all the evil hyperbole, Renard's worst bits of nastiness are...holding hot rocks and serving tea. Woo. Plus, halfway through the film Bond has a gun to his head, and doesn't pull the trigger?! Bad, bad writing. Just kill him, and finish the rest of the story, such as it is. If they intended for some other story thread to happen with Renard, it just didn't happen. For me at least. Should've saved that guy for another film IMO.

    There is nothing wrong with the lead up, the lead up is the 18 films before it and all of Bonds ladies, and finnaly killing one that screws him over, if you dont notice the lead up in TWINE itself then there is something wrong, scenes like when Elektra is freaking out in the snow, when they make love (with probably the most passion in any of the Bonds), when Elektra beats Bond to conclusions and tricks him, when Elektra pretends to be hurt and tormented from the hostage Bond falls in love, then he finds out and kills her are all great lead up moments to the killing.

    Renard is not the villain, Elektra is the villian and she causes Bond the most pain. Renard is almost like Bond where he is blinded by the love of Elektra, Renard is just like a workhorse for Elektra or a henchman. Yes the not killing scene underground is annoying, and I like your rendition of keeping the rest of the story going without him it would work nicely, but I dont have any problems with how it went. The reason why people dont find Renard a memorable villian is because he isnt the villian, he's more of a henchman.
    A love interest with Bond as a surrogate father figure (ala FYEO, I hate that--and, why does Bond not bed the pinup scientist till the final scene???), a villian who does damn near nothing despite the great back story, and random and rambling action scenes that go nowhere. This is far from classic Bond IMHO, and more a stone's throw from Austin Powers-type fare. Many good ideas, but without the realization of them on the actual movie screen it's all for nought. Very forgettable IMO (and damn near insulting to burden Bond with both impotency AND baby sitting duties! :o ).

    Yes the action scenes in TWINE dont mean much and are just 'insert here' but the drama and characterisation around it all make up for it.

    Bond is sent in to look after Elektra, he doesnt do it by choice like in FYEO etc, he is supposed to protect her, and he doesnt bed Xmas Jones until the end because he is in love with the real villian, whats the difference anyway, its better when you have a half film lead up before they do it.

    How can you be a surrogate father when Elektra is making love and using Bond to aide her schemes?
    TND may get a bit action-heavy towards the end, but it stays true to it's concepts, simple as they are. Heck, I don't even mind all the bullets flying at the end, it's as if Bond and Wai Lin are storming Blofeld's volcano from YOLT, only sans ninja army--they HAVE to do it all by themselves, and Bond's little bit of trickery, blowing a hole in the side of the stealth boat so it can be seen on radar, is a nice touch and breaks up the Ramboness of it all IMO. Sure, it's not perfect (zero chemistry between Yeoh and Brosnan, and where's the great showdown with Stamper and Bond???--sorry, but Bond rule #1, if you create a badass henchman/villian, Bond at some point must kick his butt, or you better have a really really great reason why not ala CR), but I can last till the end of it, every time. Spottiswoode made a nice confectionary Bond film, fits in well with TSWLM/MR type Bonds IMO; Apted made a regrettable Glenish mess.

    That is absolute bull****, one of the main problems with TND is the formula feels so tired and used, thats why the last Bonds have been so different (apart from DAD, to good effect), you said that the villians dont mean anything in TWINE, what about the weak ass-cliche-run of the mill villian and henchman in TND? Even the fight in the stealth boat at the end is run of the mill action crap.

    Spottiswood made the worst entry into the series, Apted made one that proved that everyone in TWINE could act superbly, Judi Dench, Sophie Marceau and especailly Pierce Brosnan.

    Apted proved his vision, that James Bond can actully act.
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • baccaretbaccaret Posts: 61MI6 Agent
    for me twine is quite a bit better than tnd, the boat chase for one and I also like Electra King ,and really the general flow of the movie was much better for me.
  • bluemanblueman PDXPosts: 1,667MI6 Agent
    Sorry heartbroken, but re: TWINE, where you see good scripting and acting, I see Oprah-styled mish mash storytelling and overwrought emoting without much to support it (see the part about mish mash storytelling...). The surrogate father thing is really disturbing, all the more so because they do sleep together. It's just weird to put that kinda thing in a Bond film (and it's not the first time, sadly). I guess for me, a simple story reasonably well told beats a complex mish mash. :D But to each their own. {[] I know there's lots of Bond fans who peg TWINE as a top entry, but I stick it down in the rubbish bin with DAD and the Glen years. Just too much wrong with it for it to overcome IMO.
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    blueman wrote:
    Sorry heartbroken, but re: TWINE, where you see good scripting and acting, I see Oprah-styled mish mash storytelling and overwrought emoting without much to support it (see the part about mish mash storytelling...). The surrogate father thing is really disturbing, all the more so because they do sleep together. It's just weird to put that kinda thing in a Bond film (and it's not the first time, sadly). I guess for me, a simple story reasonably well told beats a complex mish mash. :D But to each their own. {[] I know there's lots of Bond fans who peg TWINE as a top entry, but I stick it down in the rubbish bin with DAD and the Glen years. Just too much wrong with it for it to overcome IMO.

    {[] thats true mate, each to their own.

    Some could bag on to me about why i dont like sean connery, but i could never see, lol. ;)
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    blueman wrote:
    Plus, halfway through the film Bond has a gun to his head, and doesn't pull the trigger?! Bad, bad writing. Just kill him, and finish the rest of the story, such as it is.
    It can been argued that this is an example of Bond's reluctance to kill in cold blood, a reluctance that he overcomes when he kills Electra.
    blueman wrote:
    A love interest with Bond as a surrogate father figure (ala FYEO, I hate that--and, why does Bond not bed the pinup scientist till the final scene???)
    I don't understand. You may not like Denise Richards, but how can you think that Bond was the surrogate father figure in their relationship? ?:)
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • taitytaity Posts: 702MI6 Agent
    Dan Same wrote:
    how can you think that Bond was the surrogate father figure in their relationship? ?:)

    The age difference.

    The age difference between Bond and Miranda is the same as my dad and my older sister. The disturbed me on too many levels.
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    edited January 2007
    taity wrote:
    The age difference.

    The age difference between Bond and Miranda is the same as my dad and my older sister. The disturbed me on too many levels.
    Fine, except I was talking about TWINE, not DAD.
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • bluemanblueman PDXPosts: 1,667MI6 Agent
    There's a more than a subtle hint of surrogate father thing in TWINE, between Bond and Elektra. Her own father has just been killed, and surrogate mommy M has sent Bond to protect her, which he does while she galavants around playing house with her pipeline project. He also tries to correct her more rash behaviors like gambling. This is all very similar to Bond's relationship with the Havelock babe in FYEO, a headstrong (to say the least) female character who also just lost her father (and mother), whom Bond attempts to reign in. In both films, Bond's (over) protectiveness comes across as more parental than say, his doings with bird-with-a-wing down Domino, or Masterson's sister in GF (doesn't bed her, but he's sure not her father in that one), or Tracy. Partly it's the old Bond actor syndrome (sorry, but I got that from both those guys in both those films), and partly it's simply how those relationships were written and played. And IMHO, that's not Bond. Help a girl, sure, but not as her daddy. :o Eww. Once Bond isn't an age contempory of the gals in whichever film, the Bond versimilitude breaks down. For me at least.

    Anyhoo, them's the vibes I get.
  • taitytaity Posts: 702MI6 Agent
    Unfortunetly, I can now picture Brosnan andd any girl from his era in the middle of it. When Bond says, "whos ya daddy. Whos ya daddy, bitch."

    According to IMDB, Brosnan was born in 1953 and Elektra in 1966. Funnily enough, I pictured her being ALOT younger. Also, Christmas was born in 1971. But their parts always seemed written for a much younger age.
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    edited January 2007
    Fish1941 wrote:
    Since when has Bond ever been reluctant to kill someone he believes deserves it, in cold blood? He has done so on numerous occasions.
    Perhaps never, but he may still be reluctant as he is human. ;)
    Fish1941 wrote:
    Car Chase Inside Hamburg Parking Structure - Bond uses a remote control . . . ah, never mind! The whole scene was a bore. Even worse, it happened after the marvelous Bond/Kaufman scene. What a waste of my time..
    I adore this chase. IMO it's one of the absolute greatest of all time and the best action scene in the entire film. Why? Because it's so creative. The film is extremely derivitive, but I have always felt that this chase scene was very fresh and simply terrific. That it came after such a fantastic scene with Dr. Kaufman is a bonus.
    Fish1941 wrote:
    Bond’s Cover as a Banker – I am beginning to suspect that Bond makes a lousy undercover agent. By opening his mouth and hinting at Carver’s boat, he ended up exposing himself. What an idiot!
    I don't know exactly why he did it, but my guess is that Bond wanted to test Carver, and perhaps provoke him into making a mistake. It's interesting that as a consequence of this converation, Carver tried unsuccessfully to kill Bond, thus confirming his suspicions.
    Fish1941 wrote:
    KAUFMAN: "Wait! I am just a professional doing a job!"
    BOND: "So am I." (Then kills Kaufman)
    I have to agree with you on this one. It's a great line. It's also a great scene which IMO was a perfect representation (pre-killing of Electra) of Brosnan Bond's ruthlessness. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is as good as the killings of Dent and Sandor (the two greatest ruthless killings in the entire series IMO) but I do think it is a fantastic scene which any Bond would be proud to be connected with. -{
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • Sir Hillary BraySir Hillary Bray College of ArmsPosts: 2,174MI6 Agent
    Fish1941 wrote:
    Why is it when I point out mistakes made by Bond, people have this tendency to make excuses for his behavior? He’s not perfect. Or else the writers are not perfect.
    I don't think anyone is claiming Bond is perfect, Fish. What you see as a mistake, others may see as plausible, given their interpretation of a scene or of the Bond character. Reasonable people can differ on these things, can't they?

    To me, the cinematic arc of 007 has resulted in him not being a "secret agent" since his earliest films. While I agree with you that his "spectre" comments to Largo are gratuitous, one could also argue that since SPECTRE is aware of Bond going back to FRWL (when they want to avenge his killing of Dr. No) he is already a known commodity. In that context, his cover was blown the minute he walked into the Nassau casino, and he and Largo were simply engaging in alpha-male marking of territory.

    By the time TND rolled around, all the "undercover" stuff seemed silly to me. After all, our hero has been recognized by bartenders and concierges the world over, and has been told, "your reputation precedes you" on more than occasion. So the stuff with Carver is again just macho posturing -- "I know you're up to no good, I'm here to wreak havoc, try and stop me." Of course, no secret agent would ever do something so stupid, but Bond isn't a secret agent anymore. BTW, this is one reason I like CR so much -- the reboot allows him to be a secret agent once again.
    Hilly...you old devil!
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    True, True....

    TND is one of those films where the negatives outweigh the positives, and only just.

    There are so many elements in TND that are great, TND can almost be viewed as DAD is. First half = good 2nd half=terrible.

    The villian and the girl sucks, and the only one holding it together is PB.

    But TND's americanization AGAIN, shoot-em-ALL-up, cliche henchman, PB syndrome 'insert action here', boring plot, bad screenplay, and parodies of Bond all ruin the movies chance of being a good one.

    Dottiwood more like it.

    I do like some of the quotes tho like:

    "Spare me the techno babble" :))

    and

    "Tell me James do you still sleep with a gun under your pillow"
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • Moore Not LessMoore Not Less Posts: 1,095MI6 Agent
    TND can almost be viewed as DAD is. First half = good 2nd half=terrible.

    That is how I view TND & DAD. I prefer DAD because I enjoy it's first half more. Most notably: the surfers in the PTS, the title sequence, Bond's entrance into a Hong Kong hotel wearing only sodden pyjamas, the Cuba scenes (apart from Bond's dialogue with Jinx on the beach), Zao's escape from Los Alamos, and the swordfight between Bond & Gustav Graves.

    Whereas with TND, I enjoy little apart from the Bond/Q exchange, the Bond/Dr Kaufman exchange, and the scene where Bond sits in his hotel room waiting for Paris Carver, as it turns out.
  • bluemanblueman PDXPosts: 1,667MI6 Agent
    Side note: in the shooting script for TND, Bond's quip about being lost at sea is simply that, Carver jokes about hiring Bond to write a novel and Bond says, "I'm afraid I'd be lost at sea." In the flm, Brosnan has more to say, sort of prattles on trying to be funny...for whom? It's a blown moment, and should've been played as written IMO. He is trying to needle Carver in a time-sensitive situation (ala Connery at the casino in TB), sure, but the cutsy routine was a big WTF. For me at any rate (didn't like it when Connery pulled it either).
  • caractacus pottscaractacus potts Orbital communicator, level 10Posts: 3,907MI6 Agent
    blueman wrote:
    Once Bond isn't an age contempory of the gals in whichever film, the Bond versimilitude breaks down.
    just to compare to the way Fleming wrote it:
    Bond is perpetually 38, in Casino Royale and in You Only Live Twice
    every one of the Fleming girls is in her twenties, usually mid
    Honey Rider is 20, I think even Bond considered her a bit young
    Tiffany Case and Vesper Lynd were not much older
  • bluemanblueman PDXPosts: 1,667MI6 Agent
    Ah, but Craig looks it; Moore in the 80s and Brosnan in his last two looked their ages IMO--which were definately not 38! :o Fleming's world view accomodated a 20 something girl with a 30 something man, but I doubt he would've signed off on some of the pairings we've seen...well, maybe in his wildest dreams. ;) There's older, more experienced, etc., and then there's just older. IMHO Brosnan in TWINE and Moore in FYEO both looked and acted around 50 (which they were, give or take), not my idea--or Fleming's IMO--of Bond. 40 something passing as 30 something, that can and has worked with reasonably clever casting, likely will again.

    Sorry, "age contemporary" was a bit misleading to where I was going, hope this bit helps.
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    edited January 2007
    blueman wrote:
    Ah, but Craig looks it;
    I'll leave that alone. :p :))
    Fish1941 wrote:
    Bond killed an unarmed person in the following movies – DR. NO, THE SPY WHO LOVED ME, FOR YOUR EYES ONLY, LICENSE TO KILL, TOMORROW NEVER DIES, THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH and CASINO ROYALE.
    Fish, I never denied that Bond has killed an unarmed person. I was simply pointing out that he might still be reluctant to do so as he is human.
    Fish1941 wrote:
    Or perhaps Bond made a serious error and exposed himself. He had done it in THUNDERBALL.
    I do't think it was a mistake. As for TB, I'll be rewatching it again very soon, so I'll get back to you on that. ;)
    Fish1941 wrote:
    Why is it when I point out mistakes made by Bond, people have this tendency to make excuses for his behavior? He’s not perfect. Or else the writers are not perfect.
    Because I (and others) disagree. It's not about making excuses for his behaviour; I simply disagree with you. On a side note, I do however have a problem with you calling Bond an idiot. Obviously, you can say whatever you like, but if you do call Bond an idiot (or any other word of endearment), you can't be too shocked if I or someone else were to object. ;)
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • taitytaity Posts: 702MI6 Agent
    edited January 2007
    As you can tell, Dan loves to overuse the smileys :))

    As for saying hes reluctant to kill an un armed person, thats up for discussion. To say that he "might still be reluctant" however is a far strecth, as in many of those times he showed no reluctance. He didnt seem to irked about having to kill Davidov or Sandor. In fact, Elektra was the only one he seemed to show grief for, and part of it seemed liked he was upset she was evil, not that Bond had to kill her
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