51

Re: Black James Bond

ajb007/lol  I know a few who actually
Sound like him. I follow a few
Guys who review movies.

“God has given you one face, and you make yourself another"

52

Re: Black James Bond

I've only seen a couple of his reviews, but based on scrolling through his reviews (that's propper research!  ajb007/lol ) it looks that he rarely likes movies with female protagonists.

Last edited by Number24 (20th Aug 2020 13:55)

53

Re: Black James Bond

Gunblade wrote:

yes Daniel Craig is leaving

I thought this post from page 1 of the thread was quite fun: he was right you know, and all it took was another three movies and 11 years  ajb007/lol

54

Re: Black James Bond

emtiem wrote:

It just depends on what you think is important about canon. These are adaptations: they get -literally- adapted. Which means changed to fit the new medium, and it always has done. Sometimes keeping the style, tone or intention is enough to honour that, it doesn't mean he has to wear a Sea Island cotton shirt in every scene and drive a 1930s Bentley, because he'd look ridiculous doing that.

Now that is where we differ the most: I really do believe, that the whole film series should go back to the source materiel and be made as period piece movies. But then again, I am a fundamentalist when it comes to Bond.

And what comes to "adaptations", it's not an adaptation if you change the very foundation of the lead character. If Bond seizes to be a Scotsman from the Great Britain, why not make him a CIA agent and then you could make him an African-American from the Bronx or Compton and have a real edge to his character.
For example: I have no objection, what so ever for casting Ice Cube as Darius Stone, the lead character in the second installment of the XXX -series, but that character has no history or continuity. Bond is different, it has continuity through several authors of several novels, as well as 7 type cast actors through 25 movies. The nature of the character is important, it is part of the story telling, you cast a white chick/guy as the lead for the next Shaft movie, and you'll ruin the whole story. Sam Jackson was perfect as the John Shaft Jr., here adaptation was done right.

"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech

55

Re: Black James Bond

0073 wrote:
emtiem wrote:

It just depends on what you think is important about canon. These are adaptations: they get -literally- adapted. Which means changed to fit the new medium, and it always has done. Sometimes keeping the style, tone or intention is enough to honour that, it doesn't mean he has to wear a Sea Island cotton shirt in every scene and drive a 1930s Bentley, because he'd look ridiculous doing that.

Now that is where we differ the most: I really do believe, that the whole film series should go back to the source materiel and be made as period piece movies. But then again, I am a fundamentalist when it comes to Bond.

Well okay, I don't follow that thinking at all and I think we've moved beyond the books now, to that extent anyway. I'm a fan of the films, it sounds like they're not your cup of tea.
Felix has changed race a couple of times, M was a woman, Moneypenny started out as Canadian (?!) and changed race also... we all lived through it ajb007/smile

0073 wrote:

And what comes to "adaptations", it's not an adaptation if you change the very foundation of the lead character. If Bond seizes to be a Scotsman from the Great Britain, why not make him a CIA agent and then you could make him an African-American from the Bronx or Compton and have a real edge to his character.

The very first screen adaptation did do exactly that: make him a CIA agent. Fleming himself appeared willing to go along with it.


0073 wrote:

For example: I have no objection, what so ever for casting Ice Cube as Darius Stone, the lead character in the second installment of the XXX -series, but that character has no history or continuity. Bond is different, it has continuity through several authors of several novels, as well as 7 type cast actors through 25 movies. The nature of the character is important, it is part of the story telling, you cast a white chick/guy as the lead for the next Shaft movie, and you'll ruin the whole story. Sam Jackson was perfect as the John Shaft Jr., here adaptation was done right.

There's no real continuity in the Bond films, no. I'm not even convinced he's the same guy in View To A Kill that he was in Live and Let Die: they're not connected. The nature of the character has changed with every actor to some extent: more jokey here, more serious there, more smarmy here, more impetuous there... I'm not seeing any basic reason it can't be done in this instance given we're not even talking about a style performance but just someone's appearance.

56

Re: Black James Bond

emtiem wrote:

Has this thread been dug up on its one year anniversary just for someone to say they hate woke?  ajb007/lol

I think there's a chance the next one could be non-white. Wouldn't make any difference to me, anyone who refused to watch it based on that would be extremely unimpressive in my eyes. He's just got to be a good-looking, swaggery, great lead actor for my money.

That criteria would have ruled DC out.

Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.

57

Re: Black James Bond

emtiem wrote:

Well okay, I don't follow that thinking at all and I think we've moved beyond the books now, to that extent anyway. I'm a fan of the films, it sounds like they're not your cup of tea.
Felix has changed race a couple of times, M was a woman, Moneypenny started out as Canadian (?!) and changed race also... we all lived through it ajb007/smile

The very first screen adaptation did do exactly that: make him a CIA agent. Fleming himself appeared willing to go along with it.

There's no real continuity in the Bond films, no. I'm not even convinced he's the same guy in View To A Kill that he was in Live and Let Die: they're not connected. The nature of the character has changed with every actor to some extent: more jokey here, more serious there, more smarmy here, more impetuous there... I'm not seeing any basic reason it can't be done in this instance given we're not even talking about a style performance but just someone's appearance.

I'm sorry, but you make it sound as if it's "anything goes" for you, as long as you are entertained. Don't you feel, that there should be some constants, that would differentiate Bond movies from every other spy flick with quips and gadgets?

What makes it a Bond movie for you, is it just the title, or is there something else?

"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech

58

Re: Black James Bond

0073 wrote:
emtiem wrote:

Well okay, I don't follow that thinking at all and I think we've moved beyond the books now, to that extent anyway. I'm a fan of the films, it sounds like they're not your cup of tea.
Felix has changed race a couple of times, M was a woman, Moneypenny started out as Canadian (?!) and changed race also... we all lived through it ajb007/smile

The very first screen adaptation did do exactly that: make him a CIA agent. Fleming himself appeared willing to go along with it.

There's no real continuity in the Bond films, no. I'm not even convinced he's the same guy in View To A Kill that he was in Live and Let Die: they're not connected. The nature of the character has changed with every actor to some extent: more jokey here, more serious there, more smarmy here, more impetuous there... I'm not seeing any basic reason it can't be done in this instance given we're not even talking about a style performance but just someone's appearance.

I'm sorry, but you make it sound as if it's "anything goes" for you, as long as you are entertained.

Then you're not reading properly: I've already pointed out several lines you can't go over.
But you make it sound like entertainment is somehow a separate purpose these films shouldn't aspire to...?

0073 wrote:

Don't you feel, that there should be some constants, that would differentiate Bond movies from every other spy flick with quips and gadgets?

I'v already said ways in which you can't change the character. To read that as 'well you don't care if Bond becomes a cactus, obviously!' is to misread my posts. And if you're saying that a black person can't do quips and gadgets, then I fail to follow your reasoning even more.
(The quips and gadgets aren't really in the books you're saying they should return to, by the way)

zaphod99 wrote:
emtiem wrote:

Has this thread been dug up on its one year anniversary just for someone to say they hate woke?  ajb007/lol

I think there's a chance the next one could be non-white. Wouldn't make any difference to me, anyone who refused to watch it based on that would be extremely unimpressive in my eyes. He's just got to be a good-looking, swaggery, great lead actor for my money.

That criteria would have ruled DC out.

Eh?

59

Re: Black James Bond

I think it's interesting what happened when Angelina Jolie was cast in Salt (2010). The part was origionally written as a man. In the commentary it was said that changing the sex of a lead character involves more than finding a new first name. Women function differently in social situations, especially in relationships. The scriptwriters had to rewrite parts of the script.
The same goes for Bond. Changing the gender of Bond requires more than changing the name to Jane Bond, it's a new character.
Bond must stay male, but I really hope  he will face competition from a spy/action franchisewith an intersting female lead.

60

Re: Black James Bond

Yeah, you can't change Bond into a woman: his personality is just based too much around his own gender. Doctor Who, yes; and I actually think Sherlock Holmes could be (in a modern day adaptation, not a period one) without too much trouble. It depends on the character.

61

Re: Black James Bond

Sherlock Holmes is nearly an asexual character, so it could work. But in my opinion it would be better to create a new character who's female.

62

Re: Black James Bond

That's what folks said when 'Sherlock' was announced though- 'You can't have him not in Victorian times, why not create a new character if you want to do it in modern day?' and yet when we saw Sherlock it was very much a Holmes adaptation. So I don't think that it would require a new character to be created.

63

Re: Black James Bond

https://i.postimg.cc/t1JmQW8W/MV5-BMDEy-N2-U1-YTIt-NDY1-Zi00-Yjlj-LWI5-Yz-It-NWU3-YWVi-Yjhi-ZTgx-Xk-Ey-Xk-Fqc-Gde-QXVy-Njg4-Nz-Ay-OTA-V1.jpg

...my dear Watson.

64

Re: Black James Bond

I actually like Elementary more than Sherlock. It doesn't have the same need to go "big concept".

65

Re: Black James Bond

I enjoyed Basil the great
Mouse detective.  ajb007/wink

“God has given you one face, and you make yourself another"

66

Re: Black James Bond

Thunderpussy wrote:

I enjoyed Basil the great
Mouse detective.  ajb007/wink

The documentary?

67

Re: Black James Bond

Seeing that this thread was about if a black actor could play our beloved Bond, I'd like to address that. I am newish to the forum so I didn't have a chance to hit some of these older threads.

I think anyone could play the character, but not sure that it would be the right choice. I am pretty openminded so I am open to change. In Hollywood, of late, some white actors, both male and female, have stepped down from their jobs voicing characters that are of varying race. I get it. Since Bond was created as a white male character it would probably make sense to keep him that. In the same vein, I don't think the historical character Shaft should be changed to a white actor. Also, keep him, Bond, a male. I'd watch Bond regardless of the actor or the race of the actor though.

To us, Bond is a Superhero, but not a perfect one. Maybe the anti-hero, but still a hero. Not all heroes are white, nor should they be. Not all heroes are male, nor should they be. The next Thor will be a female, for example. For my money, I'd be interested in a spin-off of sorts where we can follow Felix on his adventures. Keep Jeff Wright in there or someone else. Whomever buys the rights to Bond, should it be sold, could do a great job on a tv series for Leiter. Just at few thoughts.

"History isn't kind to men who play God." - DC "I gave him the limp." - PB  "Better make that two." - TD

"Keeping British end up, sir." - RM "This never happened to the other fellow." - JL "I must be dreaming." SC

68

Re: Black James Bond

People keep bringing up Shaft (literally since the first few posts in this thread, 11 years ago), but it's really not the same thing at all. Black and white should be equal, but you'd have to have been living on the moon the last few months to not notice that they aren't. Shaft was a blaxploitation character: he was designed as a black private dick, in a film supposed to accentuate and lean on race and subculture. His race was pretty much the sole reason he existed, because black people are a minority and the film was made to exploit that.
James Bond on the other hand, was never designed as a 'white' secret agent i.e. his race was never even considered to be an important part of his character, because white people were/are the majority so his race was simply part and parcel of a man having that job at the time. The stories were never a comment on white men living in Britain. James Bond and Shaft aren't comparable because one is a comment on race, and one isn't. The whole point of Shaft is that he's black, whereas Bond is a spy who just happens to have black hair and white skin- not the same thing at all. Black and white people aren't the same currently, so swapping a black man in for a character previously played by a white man is not the same culturally as doing the reverse. If you think it is then try considering why 'All/White Lives Matter' is a phrase with a much different meaning to 'Black Lives Matter'.

In the fictional universe that Bond lives in, however, black and white people are the same and racism doesn't exist, in just the same way that foreign powers get along nicely and the Double-O section is only needed to fight terrorists who are trying to make themselves piles of cash- no political ideologies or religious fundamentalism to worry about. So in that world, having a James Bond who happens to be black would change nothing at all.

Last edited by emtiem (20th Aug 2020 20:19)

69

Re: Black James Bond

There are many fine Black actors who could play Bond, for years to this question
I'd always name Adrian Lester

https://i.postimg.cc/VJwr8X4d/1009552low-reshustle.jpg

Although Like Idris Elba he's probably too old now.

“God has given you one face, and you make yourself another"

70

Re: Black James Bond

Adrian Lester was born in 1968  ajb007/crap

71

Re: Black James Bond

He's still a kid  ajb007/tongue

“God has given you one face, and you make yourself another"

72

Re: Black James Bond

First I will say, I completely agree with you. Second, I was attempting to do a compare and contrast between the two, but seemed to have failed in my attempt. I feel we can compare them, since both are fictional characters, without them having to be identically similar just as we can compare apples and oranges as they are both fruits. What we do tend to see more are the contrasts more than any similarities. Shaft is clearly blaxploitation, just as you have mentioned. You also mentioned in the world we are in black and white aren't seen the same. You are right, sadly. We should all be the same. Period. Because of that fact and, because the media has asked the question "Can a black man (or at one time a black woman) play James Bond", James Bond has now been pulled into the arena where it has become a comment on him being a white man, in my opinion. Whether it should be that way or not it does appear that it is becoming that way.

All-in-all, I think a black man or any man for that matter could play Bond. I see Bond in the movies as being similar to Sherlock, Batman, Superman, etc. where anyone can play him and the stories don't exactly have to have continuity. They don't all have to be the exact same Bond from Dr. No to Now. Know what I mean? Honestly, I am excited to see any one play Bond so long as they are good and believable in that role. If Cate Blanchett can play Bob Dylan and if Mary Martin, Sandy Duncan, Cathy Rigby and Allison Williams (all I can think of off hand) can all play Peter Pan then a man that isn't white can play Bond, in my opinion.

Hope that clears it up more.

emtiem wrote:

People keep bringing up Shaft (literally since the first few posts in this thread, 11 years ago), but it's really not the same thing at all. Black and white should be equal, but you'd have to have been living on the moon the last few months to not notice that they aren't. Shaft was a blaxploitation character: he was designed as a black private dick, in a film supposed to accentuate and lean on race and subculture. His race was pretty much the sole reason he existed, because black people are a minority and the film was made to exploit that.
James Bond on the other hand, was never designed as a 'white' secret agent i.e. his race was never even considered to be an important part of his character, because white people were/are the majority so his race was simply part and parcel of a man having that job at the time. The stories were never a comment on white men living in Britain. James Bond and Shaft aren't comparable because one is a comment on race, and one isn't. The whole point of Shaft is that he's black, whereas Bond is a spy who just happens to have black hair and white skin- not the same thing at all. Black and white people aren't the same currently, so swapping a black man in for a character previously played by a white man is not the same culturally as doing the reverse. If you think it is then try considering why 'All/White Lives Matter' is a phrase with a much different meaning to 'Black Lives Matter'.

In the fictional universe that Bond lives in, however, black and white people are the same and racism doesn't exist, in just the same way that foreign powers get along nicely and the Double-O section is only needed to fight terrorists who are trying to make themselves piles of cash- no political ideologies or religious fundamentalism to worry about. So in that world, having a James Bond who happens to be black would change nothing at all.

"History isn't kind to men who play God." - DC "I gave him the limp." - PB  "Better make that two." - TD

"Keeping British end up, sir." - RM "This never happened to the other fellow." - JL "I must be dreaming." SC

73

Re: Black James Bond

JTullock23 wrote:

First I will say, I completely agree with you. Second, I was attempting to do a compare and contrast between the two, but seemed to have failed in my attempt. I feel we can compare them, since both are fictional characters, without them having to be identically similar just as we can compare apples and oranges as they are both fruits. What we do tend to see more are the contrasts more than any similarities. Shaft is clearly blaxploitation, just as you have mentioned. You also mentioned in the world we are in black and white aren't seen the same. You are right, sadly. We should all be the same. Period. Because of that fact and, because the media has asked the question "Can a black man (or at one time a black woman) play James Bond", James Bond has now been pulled into the arena where it has become a comment on him being a white man, in my opinion. Whether it should be that way or not it does appear that it is becoming that way.

All-in-all, I think a black man or any man for that matter could play Bond. I see Bond in the movies as being similar to Sherlock, Batman, Superman, etc. where anyone can play him and the stories don't exactly have to have continuity. They don't all have to be the exact same Bond from Dr. No to Now. Know what I mean? Honestly, I am excited to see any one play Bond so long as they are good and believable in that role. If Cate Blanchett can play Bob Dylan and if Mary Martin, Sandy Duncan, Cathy Rigby and Allison Williams (all I can think of off hand) can all play Peter Pan then a man that isn't white can play Bond, in my opinion.

Hope that clears it up more.

That's cool; I'm onboard with that ajb007/smile

74

Re: Black James Bond

Interesting thoughts and I am always impressed with the level and depth of discussion on these topics which could be perceived as controversial. IMHO, no matter whoever is playing him albeit an Australian, a Kiwi, someone who is Black or from whatever origin, Bond must stay British. They need to keep to that island off the mainland of Europe backstory. So having Bond be played by someone like Idris Elba, who is as British as fish and chips, is fine by me.

But I'm my personal preference I'd like them to keep faithful to the books and hire white black haired actors for most of the time (except for the odd casting when you have someone as special as Sir Roger Moore, or Daniel or idris even though he's too old now). I always worry about the purpose behind any sudden change in the expected casting to be a form of tokenism. I think my biggest problem with the 13th doctor casting wasn't the fact that the cast a woman, or that they cast Jodie Whittaker even, but that it felt like a stunt for the sake of it, without any real purpose or without anything fun or inventive besides that.
Anyway my two cents.  ajb007/martini

“The scent and smoke and sweat of a casino are nauseating at three in the morning. "
-Casino Royale, Ian Fleming

75

Re: Black James Bond

Black James Bond? Please no!

Those who know my own back ground will realise I am, not being racist!

No - just no!

Although he has to move with the times, he has to be faithful as possible to Ian Fleming character with his background and heritage.

To me this idea is just as ridiculous as having a white man to play Nelson Mandela!