1

Topic: Was Mathis a Traitor?

This has just come up on another thread as a sideline. What do you all think? Mathis was taken away at the end of Casino Royale and sweated over his possible involvement with Le Chiffre. In Quantum of Solace he seems exonorated - this being touched on by his girlfriend and the villa was given to him by MI6 as compensation. He helps Bond - the two become friends throughout the assignment and then we have the touching scene with Bond cradling him as he dies - and the somewhat dividing scene of him being dumped in the bin.
I was of the opinion that when asked if they forgave each other, this was for Bond accusing him of in Casino Royale, and of Mathis allowing himself to be caught, injured and used to ambush Bond in QOS - thus letting him down.
How do you interprept this?

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2

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

The ambiguity from this sceen shows how badly written the script was.I think parts where written in crayon.  ajb007/lol

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

ajb007/lol

Thunderpussy wrote:

The ambiguity from this sceen shows how badly written the script was.I think parts where written in crayon.  ajb007/lol

Sure that you are just not sophisticated enough to appreciate the subtle nuances of a 'challenging' and complex film ?

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

I'll have you know zaphod, that I'm soooooooo sophisticated, I always wipe the neck of the Buckfast bottle when it gets passes round.  ajb007/lol

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

Thunderpussy wrote:

I'll have you know zaphod, that I'm soooooooo sophisticated, I always wipe the neck of the Buckfast bottle when it gets passes round.  ajb007/lol

Nuff said.

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

As someone who likes to enjoy a good wine (or Scotch) and art gallery exhibitions, I can say QoS is not sophisticated. It tries desperately to be so while also retro, and artistic. As a result it comes across in places as confused, and others badly pretentious.  - This scene is a disturbing example of both crashing like a head on train wreck! A little mystery is a good thing, but not to the point where you have no idea what is going on.  -  I only get missing answers in here when people provide them.

Whats really shame is its a crashing waste of talent on the part of the actors in those scenes.  Ok, I'll stop grousing now!

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

Thunderbird 2 wrote:

As someone who likes to enjoy a good wine (or Scotch) and art gallery exhibitions, I can say QoS is not sophisticated. It tries desperately to be so while also retro, and artistic. As a result it comes across in places as confused, and others badly pretentious.  - This scene is a disturbing example of both crashing like a head on train wreck! A little mystery is a good thing, but not to the point where you have no idea what is going on.  -  I only get missing answers in here when people provide them.

Whats really shame is its a crashing waste of talent on the part of the actors in those scenes.  Ok, I'll stop grousing now!

Enjoying a good wine (or Scotch) and enjoying art gallery exhibitions is exactly what QoS is not about.

QoS is raw.

Tosca isn't for everyone ajb007/wink

"I was never taught what femininity was. I learnt it- or rather I invented it- on my own. "

-Carole Bouquet

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

The scene from QOS reminds of the other Brilliant piece of work " The naked gun Thirty three and a Third " where Anna nicole smith says to Frank Drebbin ( The great Leslie Neilsen )
   " Your Bishop is exposed " commenting on his chess playing, at first an obvious joke but on looking Deeper. It's a clear reference to the plight of Arch-Bishop Desmond Tutu and his fight for equality.
I agree Tosca is not for everyone, But then again gaze at your navel long enough and any old Bollocks can be made to look Intellectual  ajb007/rolleyes  Mabey they could get Tracy Emmin to do the set design for Bond 23. ajb007/crap or  get Damien Hirst to do a job on a Piranha pond.  " Bonnet de Douche "  Rodney. ajb007/lol

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

I don't think Mathis was a traitor at all. We see Vesper's "tells" clearly in Casino Royale. Nothing similar from Mathis. Bond was thinking that Mathis could be a "double blind" (I think that's what Bond says) because at the end of Casino he doesn't trust anyone.

The line "Do we forgive each other?" Mathis obviously forgives Bond for thinking he was a traitor and getting him tortured. Maybe Mathis suspected that Vesper was a traitor and didn't tell Bond? Mathis does seem to have insight into Vesper's character. Or the line could just be a comforting line between people when one of them is about to die.

Whatever the case, Mathis is still handled extremely poorly. Bond knows the cops are corrupt. Also, that the cops/bad guys are looking for him by being certain that the airplane guy will sell his location. Also, M immediately thinks Bond killed Mathis I believe (I need to see her scene again). So, yes Mathis trash scene was for visual/shock value more than anything else. Connery, Moore, Dalton, Lazenby, or Brosnan Bonds would never dump a friend into the trash.

"Better late than never."

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

SilentSpy wrote:

The line "Do we forgive each other?" Mathis obviously forgives Bond for thinking he was a traitor and getting him tortured. Maybe Mathis suspected that Vesper was a traitor and didn't tell Bond? Mathis does seem to have insight into Vesper's character.

Couldn't both Vesper and Mathis be traitors ? Just working for different sides..?..that's certainly how I see it.

I mean that Mathis really WAS Le Chiffre's friend and that Vesper was being worked by Quantum through her boyfriend Yusuf Kabira....so, both traitors...just reporting back to different sides...

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

Sir Miles wrote:
SilentSpy wrote:

The line "Do we forgive each other?" Mathis obviously forgives Bond for thinking he was a traitor and getting him tortured. Maybe Mathis suspected that Vesper was a traitor and didn't tell Bond? Mathis does seem to have insight into Vesper's character.

Couldn't both Vesper and Mathis be traitors ? Just working for different sides..?..that's certainly how I see it.

I mean that Mathis really WAS Le Chiffre's friend and that Vesper was being worked by Quantum through her boyfriend Yusuf Kabira....so, both traitors...just reporting back to different sides...

Le Chiffre had friends? ajb007/wink

But yes, I start to like the idea more and more.
A scary thought to entertain.

"I was never taught what femininity was. I learnt it- or rather I invented it- on my own. "

-Carole Bouquet

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

i like this thought but i believe that vesper was the real traitor and le chiffre had known that vesper was working for quantum so they kept the ruse of mathis being the traitor so that vesper could work her magic on bond and turn him as said by mr.white in qos when he said that they would have had him too. but this is just my view on the whole situation

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

waltherppk7.65 wrote:

i like this thought but i believe that vesper was the real traitor and le chiffre had known that vesper was working for quantum so they kept the ruse of mathis being the traitor so that vesper could work her magic on bond and turn him as said by mr.white in qos when he said that they would have had him too. but this is just my view on the whole situation

Yes...Quantum did want Bond.....but Le Chiffre didn't...he just wanted Bond out of the way so he could recoup his money and stop Quantum coming for him...Le Chiffre didn't work for Quantum remember, so Vesper would have been no use to him at all and anything she learned would be for Quantum only...
...so...Mathis worked for Le Chiffre and Vesper worked for Quantum...well, that's my theory anyway ajb007/biggrin

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

I think you are forgetting that Le Chiffre didn't have the password for the money. He needed Vesper to help work Bond for the password to get the money.

Also, don't forget that even Vesper is surprised when Bond mentions on the beach that Mathis didn't have his back. She probably would have a feeling or not acted as surprised if Mathis was also working for Quantum or Le Chiffre. Unless Mathis was just shadowing her. But still Bond probably would not ask for Mathis' help in Quantum if he really believed he was a traitor and would set him up in South America (I can't remember the country).

"Better late than never."

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

SilentSpy wrote:

I think you are forgetting that Le Chiffre didn't have the password for the money. He needed Vesper to help work Bond for the password to get the money.

Also, don't forget that even Vesper is surprised when Bond mentions on the beach that Mathis didn't have his back. She probably would have a feeling or not acted as surprised if Mathis was also working for Quantum or Le Chiffre. Unless Mathis was just shadowing her. But still Bond probably would not ask for Mathis' help in Quantum if he really believed he was a traitor and would set him up in South America (I can't remember the country).

Nope...didn't forget that...I'm suggesting that Vesper didn't work for Le Chiffre at all...only for Quantum...and other than the threat of violence against Vesper, Le Chiffre doesn't appear to use Vesper against Bond....and that threat of violence against Vesper was probably real and could have been part of the reason Mr White shot Le Chiffre....to save Vesper and help them get the money - and possibly Bond too...

Vesper could genuinely have been surprised that Bond mentions that Mathis didn't have his back...she KNEW she was the traitor, why expect another one ?
I still think that Mathis only worked for Le Chiffre and that Vesper only worked for Quantum....so why would they know about each others duplicity ?

Of course...I could have this all wrong ajb007/lol

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

To the OP, a confusing scene indeed. I always thought everyone knew the answer and that i was just being dumb and couldn't figure it out, nice to know that no one really knows, haha. Anyway, doesn't bond say something like, "was mathis your cover name?" to which he replies yes and bond replies again with something like, "not a very good one i guess." I always thought that meant Mathis was working for quantum as a double agent type thing. I guess i might just not be remembering the scene very well, i haven't watched QoS recently, and i don't plan to anytime soon.

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

Sir Miles wrote:
SilentSpy wrote:

I think you are forgetting that Le Chiffre didn't have the password for the money. He needed Vesper to help work Bond for the password to get the money.

Also, don't forget that even Vesper is surprised when Bond mentions on the beach that Mathis didn't have his back. She probably would have a feeling or not acted as surprised if Mathis was also working for Quantum or Le Chiffre. Unless Mathis was just shadowing her. But still Bond probably would not ask for Mathis' help in Quantum if he really believed he was a traitor and would set him up in South America (I can't remember the country).

Nope...didn't forget that...I'm suggesting that Vesper didn't work for Le Chiffre at all...only for Quantum...and other than the threat of violence against Vesper, Le Chiffre doesn't appear to use Vesper against Bond....and that threat of violence against Vesper was probably real and could have been part of the reason Mr White shot Le Chiffre....to save Vesper and help them get the money - and possibly Bond too...

Vesper could genuinely have been surprised that Bond mentions that Mathis didn't have his back...she KNEW she was the traitor, why expect another one ?
I still think that Mathis only worked for Le Chiffre and that Vesper only worked for Quantum....so why would they know about each others duplicity ?

Of course...I could have this all wrong ajb007/lol

I think Mr. White shot Le Chiffre for the reasons he stated. Something about knowing who to trust is more important than money. Le Chiffre knew they were coming after him. Quantum probably just gave him a chance to recover the money and his chance was up once he lost the poker game. I doubt the threat of violence was real against Vesper by Le Chiffre because they still didn't have the money.

Anyway, I think the real question is. What makes people believe Mathis could be a traitor other than Bond wrongly (I believe) suspecting him and the line in  Quantum of Solace? I don't see any other proof other than those two things.

Last edited by SilentSpy (7th Jun 2011 19:44)

"Better late than never."

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

SilentSpy wrote:
Sir Miles wrote:
SilentSpy wrote:

I think you are forgetting that Le Chiffre didn't have the password for the money. He needed Vesper to help work Bond for the password to get the money.

Also, don't forget that even Vesper is surprised when Bond mentions on the beach that Mathis didn't have his back. She probably would have a feeling or not acted as surprised if Mathis was also working for Quantum or Le Chiffre. Unless Mathis was just shadowing her. But still Bond probably would not ask for Mathis' help in Quantum if he really believed he was a traitor and would set him up in South America (I can't remember the country).

Nope...didn't forget that...I'm suggesting that Vesper didn't work for Le Chiffre at all...only for Quantum...and other than the threat of violence against Vesper, Le Chiffre doesn't appear to use Vesper against Bond....and that threat of violence against Vesper was probably real and could have been part of the reason Mr White shot Le Chiffre....to save Vesper and help them get the money - and possibly Bond too...

Vesper could genuinely have been surprised that Bond mentions that Mathis didn't have his back...she KNEW she was the traitor, why expect another one ?
I still think that Mathis only worked for Le Chiffre and that Vesper only worked for Quantum....so why would they know about each others duplicity ?

Of course...I could have this all wrong ajb007/lol

I think Mr. White shot Le Chiffre for the reasons he stated. Something about knowing who to trust is more important than money. Le Chiffre knew they were coming after him. Quantum probably just gave him a chance to recover the money and his chance was up once he loss the poker game. I doubt the threat of violence was real against Vesper by Le Chiffre because they still didn't have the money.

Anyway, I think the real question is. What makes people believe Mathis could be a traitor other than Bond suspecting wrongly (I believe) suspecting him and the line in  Quantum of Solace? I don't see any other proof other than those two things.

Yes...that's definately a part of it (IMO)...but perhaps Quantum also wanted Bond, so didn't want Le Chiffre to kill him....and it just so happened that to kill Le Chiffre then would give them a chance to get Bond on their side and send out a message too....and they knew that Vesper would just tell them the bank details, they needed Bond for the password....and it's much easier for them to get it through Vesper than through torture...
You say the threat of violence against Vesper wasn't real....why not ? It was far easier all round to get Vesper to get the information from Bond [exactly how she did] rather than waste time torturing him...that doesn't make sense... ajb007/insane The torture scene only makes sense [to me at least] IF Le Chiffre doesn't work directly for Quantum and therefore can't get his money before Quantum come for him...otherwise Le Chiffre would just ask Vesper to ask Bond for the password and he'd have his money in a matter of minutes...

As for Mathis..?..there is very little proof that he's not a double-agent...apart from the line in QoS....I guess you pays your money and takes your choice... ajb007/biggrin

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

(Sighs)  I give up. Le Chiffre's dead, Vesper's dead, Mathis is dead, unless we get some answers in the next film we will prob never know what really was going on. Far too convoluted for my taste.

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

Sir Miles wrote:

...they knew that Vesper would just tell them the bank details, they needed Bond for the password....and it's much easier for them to get it through Vesper than through torture...

You say the threat of violence against Vesper wasn't real....why not ? It was far easier all round to get Vesper to get the information from Bond [exactly how she did] rather than waste time torturing him...that doesn't make sense... ajb007/insane The torture scene only makes sense [to me at least] IF Le Chiffre doesn't work directly for Quantum and therefore can't get his money before Quantum come for him...otherwise Le Chiffre would just ask Vesper to ask Bond for the password and he'd have his money in a matter of minutes...

As for Mathis..?..there is very little proof that he's not a double-agent...apart from the line in QoS....I guess you pays your money and takes your choice... ajb007/biggrin

I'll try to explain my thinking on this. I didn't think that Vesper had direct control over the money. Even though she says "I'm the money" once Bond gets the money, it's his. Remember the banker. Now, when Bond needs more money, Vesper probably would need to put in a request. Which she didn't want to do. She wanted Bond out of the game to save her "boyfriend" who she thought would be killed. Bond didn't want to ask M for the money because Vesper would probably complain that Bond is too reckless and would just lose the money again.

I always assumed Vesper told Le Chiffre (either directly or indirectly) that Bond knew his tell. As I mentioned I think in this or another post, Eva Green gives a great performance as Vesper through her facial expressions. For example, after Bond gets back in the poker game, Vesper is clearly angry.

On the torture, I vaguely remember in the book that Vesper wasn't tortured. In the movie, Bond was going to take the password to his death. Le Chiffre enjoyed torturing him for putting him through all the trouble in the poker game. Le Chiffre probably even assumed that Bond is the guy who caused all his plans to go wrong. Anyway, after Bond wins the poker game, Vesper had no real reason to ask for the password. If anything, Vesper asking for the password would have made Bond suspicious. Torture with the threat of violence against Vesper was the best route at that time. Both for Le Chiffre who desperately needed the money and Quantum since they were most likely unsure if Vesper could get it back. Remember, Vesper didn't give Bond the extra money. She didn't know if she could get the password. So, if Bond sees Vesper injured he would correctly assume that they are going to kill them anyway. The scream is the threat of harm. If Vesper was unharmed, Bond would think they aren't serious enough and there is the possibility of escape. Then Vesper could get the password, which is pretty much what happened.

"Better late than never."

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

When I left the cinema a guy walking behind me turned to his companions and said, " Was that me, or did anyone else know what the f**k was going on?" I felt really smug and turned to my wife, who had seen Casino Royale a couple of times and asked her why anyone would see it without seeing the first. She said, "Because its a Bond film..." and I felt a bit daft. But that's the point - the poor guy wasn't an idiot, he just wasn't looking for something so deep and had wasted his money.
Bond has a huge fanbase, and they're not all on the web discussing it. Even here where interest gives way to obsession, nobody has a definative answer to this. The film just isn't clear enough... ajb007/crap

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22

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

I think Mathis was infact a Triple agent, By asking Bond for forgivness he was playing a double bluff, so Bond would think he was only a double agent, Infact he knew what Bond knew and some of what Bond didn't know, While Bond knew only some of What Mathis knew but all of what he knew, Both Men knowing all of their own Knowlage but less of what the other knew. In a way they both knew what they knew But knew That some things where unknown to each other so had some known knowns, and some unknown knowns mixed with unknown Knowns, I hope this Clarifies matters.

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

Thunderpussy wrote:

I think Mathis was infact a Triple agent, By asking Bond for forgivness he was playing a double bluff, so Bond would think he was only a double agent, Infact he knew what Bond knew and some of what Bond didn't know, While Bond knew only some of What Mathis knew but all of what he knew, Both Men knowing all of their own Knowlage but less of what the other knew. In a way they both knew what they knew But knew That some things where unknown to each other so had some known knowns, and some unknown knowns mixed with unknown Knowns, I hope this Clarifies matters.

Makes more sense than say,casting Craig as a tall, dark, handsome,sauve secret agent.

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Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

Thunderpussy wrote:

I think Mathis was infact a Triple agent, By asking Bond for forgivness he was playing a double bluff, so Bond would think he was only a double agent, Infact he knew what Bond knew and some of what Bond didn't know, While Bond knew only some of What Mathis knew but all of what he knew, Both Men knowing all of their own Knowlage but less of what the other knew. In a way they both knew what they knew But knew That some things where unknown to each other so had some known knowns, and some unknown knowns mixed with unknown Knowns, I hope this Clarifies matters.

At last, everything has become crystal clear, thanks TP. ajb007/lol

Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:

http://apbateman.com

25

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

The Secret Agent - Thank You for post 21. My thinking exactly.


Thunderpussy wrote:

I think Mathis was infact a Triple agent, By asking Bond for forgivness he was playing a double bluff, so Bond would think he was only a double agent, Infact he knew what Bond knew and some of what Bond didn't know, While Bond knew only some of What Mathis knew but all of what he knew, Both Men knowing all of their own Knowlage but less of what the other knew. In a way they both knew what they knew But knew That some things where unknown to each other so had some known knowns, and some unknown knowns mixed with unknown Knowns, I hope this Clarifies matters.

Thunderpussy, will you PLEASE stop reading the novelisations of Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister before logging in?!   -  That's my trademark!  ajb007/biggrin

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