26

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

SilentSpy wrote:

I'll try to explain my thinking on this. I didn't think that Vesper had direct control over the money. Even though she says "I'm the money" once Bond gets the money, it's his. Remember the banker. Now, when Bond needs more money, Vesper probably would need to put in a request. Which she didn't want to do. She wanted Bond out of the game to save her "boyfriend" who she thought would be killed. Bond didn't want to ask M for the money because Vesper would probably complain that Bond is too reckless and would just lose the money again.

But Bond never has the money as such, he just transfers it to the banker and then is allowed to enter the game. He is given chips/plaques to play with - until he has either won it all, or lost it all...no middle ground.
When Bond loses and needs to buy back in, he asks Vesper for the money....it's made clear she has the final say so as to whether he gets the reserve money or not...that is why she is there, to 'see' if Bond is worth buying back into the game...
I'm not sure that Vesper has any instructions as to the outcome of the poker game....she isn't playing and can't influence the deck, so....
Bond could ask M for more money all he wants....it's NOT her money and she has no control over the money whatsoever ! The money belongs to the Treasury...that's made perfectly clear....and so M has no call on that. Remember the guy from the Treasury at the end who is with M and asks why they haven't had the money deposited into their account yet ?


SilentSpy wrote:

I always assumed Vesper told Le Chiffre (either directly or indirectly) that Bond knew his tell. As I mentioned I think in this or another post, Eva Green gives a great performance as Vesper through her facial expressions. For example, after Bond gets back in the poker game, Vesper is clearly angry.

Again...I think Vesper doesn't help Le Chiffre at all....she works for Quantum....that's clear too...
...maybe Quantum tipped Le Chiffre off after Vesper told them, that's possible...but my money is still on Mathis...and of course she is angry...she thinks Bond will just lose more money...and annoyed that Bond found a way to get the money to buy back in...and they had just had a big argument ajb007/wink

SilentSpy wrote:

On the torture, I vaguely remember in the book that Vesper wasn't tortured. In the movie, Bond was going to take the password to his death. Le Chiffre enjoyed torturing him for putting him through all the trouble in the poker game. Le Chiffre probably even assumed that Bond is the guy who caused all his plans to go wrong. Anyway, after Bond wins the poker game, Vesper had no real reason to ask for the password. If anything, Vesper asking for the password would have made Bond suspicious. Torture with the threat of violence against Vesper was the best route at that time. Both for Le Chiffre who desperately needed the money and Quantum since they were most likely unsure if Vesper could get it back. Remember, Vesper didn't give Bond the extra money. She didn't know if she could get the password. So, if Bond sees Vesper injured he would correctly assume that they are going to kill them anyway. The scream is the threat of harm. If Vesper was unharmed, Bond would think they aren't serious enough and there is the possibility of escape. Then Vesper could get the password, which is pretty much what happened.

No...in the book Vesper wasn't tortured.
I really don't think Le Chiffre 'enjoyed' torturing Bond at all...he would have preferred just to have got the password and then to kill Bond swiftly...he knows that time is of the essence and he needs to move swiftly...
After Bond wins the game Vesper has every reason to ask for the password - she needs to get the money back to the Treasury PDQ....and Bond would know that...they only had to wait for the banker to show up to complete the transaction...
...Quantum aren't too bothered by the money...it was the 'loss of face' through Le Chiffre that bothered them most...getting the money would just have been a bonus to them...
...Vesper always knew she would get the password...or at least get Bond to enter the password in...remember that Vesper had to enter in the bank account details [which she did] and that the money then went, not directly to a Treasury account, but to a 'resting' account....so a false threat of violence against Vesper makes no sense at all....and therefore, in my addled mind, proves that Vesper didn't work for Le Chiffre ajb007/biggrin

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

27

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

Sir Miles -

I'll watch the movie again, I'm sure I'm approaching triple digits.

I never saw Vesper enter an account number before Bond's first meeting with the Banker so I didn't think that Vesper had final call on the money situation. I remember the Treasury officer but you would think that M has some sway over the money her department is receiving and not leaving everything up to one young accountant.

Also, I think Vesper is angry not over the money but the fact that her "boyfriend" is at risk and this spy somehow managed to get back in the game. Vesper doesn't know about the CIA as far as we know. Bond suspects someone about the tell reveal and probably the poison as well. I think Vesper saying give me the password at dinner would make him ask questions. Especially since she didn't know what deal Bond had with the CIA. She had to wait to see how things played out. We don't know how far along Quantum is in Casino Royale so $100+ Million (I think) could have hurt them as far as we know.

Another thing, although I want to watch the movie again to be sure. But who else but Vesper was close enough to Bond to know about the tracking device? Mathis sure wasn't. I think Vesper noticed it when she saved Bond from the poison. I also remember a seedy looking guy or maybe one of Le Chiffre's people near Vesper at one point. I'll check again. I know Vesper was working for Quantum and Le Chiffre was an agent of Quantum. The question is how much did Vesper conspire with Le Chiffre? Mathis always showed that he was against Le Chiffre. From the corrupt cop (producer cameo), tracking Le Chiffre, and body dumping.

How can you not assume that Le Chiffre didn't enjoy torturing Bond? The guy takes off his jacket, has a rope ready, talks about dispensing pain, probably did the torture on Solange, and even finds the whole thing funny at one point.

The whole Mathis thing really added confusion. I guess I never assumed Mathis was a traitor. There is nothing to suggest it other than the word of a bad guy and Bond's own paranoia at all the things happening around him.

"Better late than never."

28

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

SilentSpy wrote:

Sir Miles -

I'll watch the movie again, I'm sure I'm approaching triple digits.

Well...that's hardly a hardship ajb007/lol

SilentSpy wrote:

I never saw Vesper enter an account number before Bond's first meeting with the Banker so I didn't think that Vesper had final call on the money situation. I remember the Treasury officer but you would think that M has some sway over the money her department is receiving and not leaving everything up to one young accountant.

It doesn't show Vesper enter an account number at the start, only Bond enter his password...but that may only have been to set up the password for verification later...
But M's department doesn't receive the money...neither does Bond really...he just gets the chips/plaques...and why send Vesper if she doesn't have control or the experience to deal with the situation..?...they wouldn't send a novice...

SilentSpy wrote:

Also, I think Vesper is angry not over the money but the fact that her "boyfriend" is at risk and this spy somehow managed to get back in the game. Vesper doesn't know about the CIA as far as we know. Bond suspects someone about the tell reveal and probably the poison as well. I think Vesper saying give me the password at dinner would make him ask questions. Especially since she didn't know what deal Bond had with the CIA. She had to wait to see how things played out. We don't know how far along Quantum is in Casino Royale so $100+ Million (I think) could have hurt them as far as we know.

Was Yusuf Kabira already dead though ? Or was the ruse about his death only used when Vesper died..?...not sure about that myself...but I think he could have been [or Vesper told that he was]....thats why she stops wearing the necklace...

SilentSpy wrote:

Another thing, although I want to watch the movie again to be sure. But who else but Vesper was close enough to Bond to know about the tracking device? Mathis sure wasn't. I think Vesper noticed it when she saved Bond from the poison. I also remember a seedy looking guy or maybe one of Le Chiffre's people near Vesper at one point. I'll check again. I know Vesper was working for Quantum and Le Chiffre was an agent of Quantum. The question is how much did Vesper conspire with Le Chiffre? Mathis always showed that he was against Le Chiffre. From the corrupt cop (producer cameo), tracking Le Chiffre, and body dumping.

I think Mathis would know about the tracking device...or have a blooming good idea about it...he is an experienced field officer after all and would have come across them before....plus don't forget Mitchell either....he would definately know about the tracker and report such to Quantum....
...was Le Chiffre an agent of Quantum...?...he was certainly a 'banker' for people/groups that knew Quantum...but does it state that he IS an agent for Quantum...?...

SilentSpy wrote:

How can you not assume that Le Chiffre didn't enjoy torturing Bond? The guy takes off his jacket, has a rope ready, talks about dispensing pain, probably did the torture on Solange, and even finds the whole thing funny at one point.

I don't assume that...I watch the scene and the acting....I take off my jacket for - doesn't mean I enjoy it though ajb007/lol He talks about pain/torture to try and get the information he needs WITHOUT having to torture Bond...watch that scene again...Le Chiffre sweats profusely...you can see the tension in his eyes and face...he's only doing this to get the information he needs...he's a money man...and his laugh is that of a nervous man...of one who understands what he HAS to do...not because he enjoys it at all...

SilentSpy wrote:

The whole Mathis thing really added confusion. I guess I never assumed Mathis was a traitor. There is nothing to suggest it other than the word of a bad guy and Bond's own paranoia at all the things happening around him.

I always thought he was....otherwise why have the whole "do we forgive each other..?.." speech in QoS ? If he's not a traitor then what has Mathis got to ask forgiveness for ???

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

29

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

I thought it meant, Mathis was to forgive Bond for getting him tortured for no reason.

Then again, if he was a traitor, then Bond didn't do much wrong really, he wasn't innocent at all. So why should Bond ask for forgiveness?

Both films a complete mess imo, but CR managed to hide it was wearing no knickers at the time.

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017

30

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

Sir Miles wrote:

I always thought he was....otherwise why have the whole "do we forgive each other..?.." speech in QoS ? If he's not a traitor then what has Mathis got to ask forgiveness for ???

I always interpreted it as Mathis asking forgiveness for alerting the Bolivian Police Colonel that Bond was in town, which led to the situation with the 2 motorcycle cops. Mathis told Bond that the Colonel was a trusted friend who could help, not knowing that he was in league with General Medrano & Greene. If Mathis had not told the Colonel about Bond, then perhaps Bond would not have run into trouble after the party.

I hope it makes sense to other people, but that's the way I've always interpreted it.

31

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

Yeah, actually that makes sense.

Not wishing to imply that Sir Miles hasn't a foggiest about a film that he rates so highly however, that would be just rude of me...  ajb007/tongue  ajb007/biggrin

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017

32

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

BLU8 wrote:

I always interpreted it as Mathis asking forgiveness for alerting the Bolivian Police Colonel that Bond was in town, which led to the situation with the 2 motorcycle cops. Mathis told Bond that the Colonel was a trusted friend who could help, not knowing that he was in league with General Medrano & Greene. If Mathis had not told the Colonel about Bond, then perhaps Bond would not have run into trouble after the party.

I hope it makes sense to other people, but that's the way I've always interpreted it.

Hmmm...food for thought at least...although the 'situation' and 'trouble after the party' is a nice way of saying Mathis getting himself killed ajb007/lol So I don't really buy that explanation 100%....doesn't mean it's wrong....it just doesn't add up enough for me...

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

33

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

Napoleon Plural wrote:

Yeah, actually that makes sense.

Not wishing to imply that Sir Miles hasn't a foggiest about a film that he rates so highly however, that would be just rude of me...  ajb007/tongue  ajb007/biggrin

Yes well...plaiting custard makes sense to you ajb007/wink ajb007/lol

Hey...life would be soooo boring if everything was spoonfed to you and you didn't have to think for yourself...and it IS a great film, Nap...just don't buy the £5 version ajb007/tongue ajb007/biggrin

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

34

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

This topic is just hilarious, what a hoot.

35

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

zaphod wrote:

This topic is just hilarious, what a hoot.

Probably not the outcome we were looking for ajb007/crap

But glad it keeps you entertained ajb007/biggrin

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

36

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

Sir Miles wrote:
zaphod wrote:

This topic is just hilarious, what a hoot.

Probably not the outcome we were looking for ajb007/crap

But glad it keeps you entertained ajb007/biggrin

Sir miles, your watchful eye always keeps us entertained...

Btw u hv a pm from me....before u fire back ajb007/rolleyes

37

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

ke02eww wrote:
Sir Miles wrote:
zaphod wrote:

This topic is just hilarious, what a hoot.

Probably not the outcome we were looking for ajb007/crap

But glad it keeps you entertained ajb007/biggrin

Sir miles, your watchful eye always keeps us entertained...

Btw u hv a pm from me....before u fire back ajb007/rolleyes

I may have inadvertently started this, as in another thread I suggested that  that the way Bond treats Mathis during death is only plausable (to me at least) if indeed Mathis was a traitor, or at the very least believed to be one by Bond. Subsequent tortured and convoluted justifications, theories, counter-therioes desprtatley trying to make sense of the mess only serve to highlight what a confused and half-baked film it is. I also noted the counter view, that it goes to demonstrate what a complex, challenging & sophisticated film it is, and those that don't buy it, simply don't get it. I was joking with the last point, but that is precisely what has happened.
The implicit suggestion that it is the fault of those who don't get it for not being sophisticated enough to cope with the subtleties and nuances of a Bond film.

Again, what a hoot.

38

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

Sir Miles is in the yellow pollo neck.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2R3kAQdzBxk/S983lnz_NdI/AAAAAAAAAEo/ygmDg_47yzE/s1600/howie.jpg

"Now just wait a minute, think what you're doing...!"

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017

39

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

Sir Miles wrote:

otherwise why have the whole "do we forgive each other..?.." speech in QoS ?

I agree that Mathis was a traitor. I think this scene just pointed out the differences between him and Bond. Mathis needed to know – he realised he was dying, and he didn’t want things left unsaid between them. Bond had just assumed forgiveness – but not said it out loud – Mathis needed confirmation. (Sensitive types need that sometimes ajb007/wink )

It also leads beautifully onto Mathis telling Bond to forgive Vesper. Sometimes it takes another person, to point out the obvious (and Mathis knew how much Bond was internalising his feelings) – and to let Bond finally allow his feelings for Vesper be felt – and mourned, rather than hidden away, and pretend like she never happened.

Just my ‘female, sensitive take’ on the situation….. ajb007/lol

She's worth whatever chaos she brings to the table and you know it. ~ Mark Anthony

40

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

I believe that Vesper was the only traitor. Mathis wanted Bond to forgive him for the corrupt police chief situation. I dont think Mathis knew the police chief was corrupt but felt responsible towards Bond for alerting the police to him.

41

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

DanielCraig007 wrote:

I believe that Vesper was the only traitor. Mathis wanted Bond to forgive him for the corrupt police chief situation. I dont think Mathis knew the police chief was corrupt but felt responsible towards Bond for alerting the police to him.

No disrespect DC007 - but I can't believe* Mathis would have such a heart filled plea with Bond, in his last few minutes, to be asking for forgiveness for the corruption of Chief of Police - I do believe he was asking to be forgiven for his role as a double (or triple) agent.

Plus Bond asks him about his code name.


*...but I have been known to get it wrong.... ajb007/wink

She's worth whatever chaos she brings to the table and you know it. ~ Mark Anthony

42

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

But hang on, didn't Mathis stitch up Le Chiffre by framing his subordinates, planting dead bodies in the boot of the car and so on in CR? Or was that to 'show' Bond that he was loyal?

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017

43

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

I think they forgave each other because at the time Bond was kneeling on Mathis's crotch. ajb007/shifty

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

44

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

Was Mathis a traitor? I spoke to my mate, and he said:

http://cdn-images.hollywood.com/cms/294x255/1104102.jpg

"X-( NO, NO, no no NO NO  NO NO NO NO ajb007/mad ajb007/shifty ajb007/shifty no no NO NO  NO NO NO NO ajb007/mad NO, NO, no no NO NO  NO NO NO NO ajb007/mad ajb007/shifty ajb007/shifty no no NO NO  NO NO NO NO ajb007/mad NO, NO, no no NO NO  NO NO NO NO ajb007/mad ajb007/shifty ajb007/shifty no no NO NO  NO NO NO NO ajb007/mad NO, NO, no no NO NO  NO NO NO NO ajb007/mad ajb007/shifty ajb007/shifty no no NO NO  NO NO NO NO ajb007/mad NO, NO, no no NO NO  NO NO NO NO ajb007/mad ajb007/shifty ajb007/shifty no no NO NO  NO NO NO NO ajb007/mad NO, NO, no no NO NO  NO NO NO NO ajb007/mad ajb007/shifty ajb007/shifty no no NO NO  NO NO NO NO ajb007/mad NO, NO, no no NO NO  NO NO NO NO ajb007/mad ajb007/shifty ajb007/shifty no no NO NO  NO NO NO NO"

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017

45

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

will the company who made the Dumpster be bringing out a special collectors edition for the release of Bond 23. I've told my family when I die not to spend a fortune on a coffin etc But have a Bond themed Burial and have a Blonde guy  drop me in to a dumster as they stand around humming the Bond thyme  ajb007/martini  then remove my wallet to pay the Bolnde guy his fee. Ah, there won't be a dry seat in the house.

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

46

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

It was a stupid scene written badly that might make more sense if there was another scene cut from the script that it built upon.  Using Mathis' body seemed like an allusion to how Mathis used a body in Casino Royale, except that that situation had a purpose whereas Mathis could just as easily been left on the street to look like he'd been robbed and killed. 

What bothers me more is two-fold:  Giancarlo Giannini was so good as Mathis that I wished for once they'd spared what generally amounts to the sacrificial lamb in a bond film, and Mathis in the novels is obviously a sympathetic character.

47

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

i think mathis was trying to play both sides.

48

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

I have the answer to this Mathis question and some of Sir Miles theories too. I need to focus it all in the next few days!

"Better late than never."

49

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

SilentSpy wrote:

I have the answer to this Mathis question and some of Sir Miles theories too. I need to focus it all in the next few days!

I look forward to your answer ajb007/martini

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

50

Re: Was Mathis a Traitor?

- Vesper controlled the money. Bond could not bypass her by going directly to M for the money, because the money belonged to the Treasury, NOT to Mi6. Mi6 requested the funds, and was given the green light to tap into the treasury for the operation - with Vesper being appointed to the role (with help from Quantum, probably) of guarding the Treasury's money from being frivolously spent by Mi6 in a way that would directly finance terrorism. The final word on whether Bond would be given a second chance to buy in fell with Vesper, not M.

- We know Vesper was cooperating with White. We don't know if she had any contact with Le Chiffre. I, personally, doubt it. She could have passed on the information about 'the tell' to White who could have passed it on to Le Chiffre...

However, I doubt this was the case. I don't think Le Chiffre was cooperating with EITHER Vesper or White at this point. Why? His execution by White. 'Money's not as valuable to our organization as knowing who to trust'. It's unlikely that Le Chiffre and White were cooperating during the casino game and the aftermath. After all, why would White kill Le Chiffre if they were in cahoots at that point? If they were buddied-up at that point, White likely would've been in the interrogation chamber helping Le Chiffre torture Bond, not interrupting the process by blowing Le Chiffre's brains out, because they had the same goal - only they didn't, exactly. Quantum wasn't so much after the money as Le Chiffre himself.

Le Chiffre had gone rogue at this point (like the character from the story). Le Chiffre had been entrusted by Quantum as a banker, specializing in 'conflict investment' (for a definition of this term, see the excellent Richard K Morgan novel, 'Market Forces). Le Chiffre violated that trust before the card game began, and like his literary counterpart, he cooked up the card game as a desperate attempt to get the money back so he could avoid execution.

White/Quantum have an ace in the hole... a double-agent they turned, via coercion, in the Treasury - Vesper. Whether Le Chiffre or Bond win the game, Quantum can get their money.

(Though, I'm amused by the notion of one of the other players winning, like the elderly lady or the fat guy. Imagine the movie ending after Fat Guy wins.... and both Le Chiffre and Bond say, 'Well,   Brexit .') ajb007/lol Though I guess that would still count as a win for Bond...

Anyway, if Vesper wasn't connected to Le Chiffre either directly or by way of Quantum, then that only leaves Mathis as the 'traitor'. I'm willing to buy that. It's not too much of a stretch. Mathis seemed like one of those types that are so far undercover for so long that they lose sight of allegiances, having lived, at his age, through the Cold War, in a business full of double-crossing, briberies, etc. Was he even Mi6 in the film, or was he an allied intelligence operative as in the novel? Either way, he perhaps wasn't fully briefed or truly aware of what was at stake in the card game. Imagine that he is so used to being an outside field agent - never given the full story for 'need to know' reasons - that from his perspective, all he knows is that Bond is bankrolled by Mi6 to play a silly poker game against this other guy, for reasons unknown to him. He's so used to being underpaid, and mistrusting others/being mistrusted, that it's not unbelievable for his character to take a bribe for revealing that Bond knows Le Chiffre's tell. He doesn't know what's really at stake, and that it's putting lives in direct danger.

On the other hand, it wouldn't even have to be a direct collaboration between him and Le Chiffre directly. Imagine if Le Chiffre or his men managed to bribe/coerce Mathis' station chief (his boss) or someone else in his branch. Imagine that Mathis has a superior - let's say he's improbably named Larry - who pesters Mathis for updates about how the operation is going. Mathis tells Larry about the tell, who passes it on to Le Chiffre. Whether it was Mathis himself or corruption in his department doesn't really matter to the story. Le Chiffre's line about 'our friend Mathis' would then be an ironic one, in the sense that they were getting the knowledge from Mathis without his knowledge. In either case, his apology to Bond in the end is justified, whether he was directly responsible, or by failure of indiscretion; and either scenario fits in with the recurring theme in the two films about trust/not trusting/knowing who to trust/etc.

In any case, i think the events of QoS back up the notion that Mathis wasn't completely clean. His dirty dealings with the Bolivian police chief, I think, were evidence of Mathis' lack of standards where allegiances are concerned. Spy business is dirty business. You can claim that Mathis thought the Bolivian police chief was a genuinely nice guy, but look at it this way: if it came to light that the chief of police of, say, Chicago was being bribed by a spy in Montenegro, what would you assume about said police chief? Obviously, Mathis had gotten in too far and too deep, and paid the price for it when a higher bidder came along (Greene). Reinforcing the theme of the two films, he lost perspective on the issue of 'who to trust'. Bond's lesson in these films: Trust no one.

Last edited by SpectreBlofeld (20th Jul 2011 01:31)