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Topic: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

after watching it for the first time in ages, i realised that it really has no separate storyline apart from the small sub-plot about the quantum group, who were associated with CR. My thought after watching it again was that it was like what Harry Potter films had done. The last film was split into 2 parts. Interesting i thought. Basically this movie is a carry on from CR

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

I like to see CR and QoS back to back as a 4 hour complete bond experience.
When you look at QoS as just a big action finale to CR its not half bad.

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

Once again the lengths that people will go to to rescue QOS never ceases to amaze me. Now we are being urged to see it as an action packed second half to CR, & even then if the best we can say is that it's not half bad it certainly seems like faint praise. I have of course done it myself, watched it on numerous occasions to try and see if it can be rescued, or try to see what others whose opinions I respect manage to see in it, but without success. Oh well, 'back to the salt mines' to watch it again until I get it right..Emperors not so new clothes anyone?

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

I know on seeing it the Phrase " Number 2" did spring to mind  ajb007/lol

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

Thunderpussy wrote:

I know on seeing it the Phrase " Number 2" did spring to mind  ajb007/lol

Very good Thunderpussy, very good indeed.

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

whilst it is indeed a stretch to suggest that we can merit the film as an 'expansion pack' of sorts to CR, when watching the films back to back, there is a sense that QoS makes quite an effective 'third act' to the story. Intentional or not, this doesn't stop the film from being a lousy entity on its own...

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

Huh.

I think QOS stands alone just fine, is one of the best films in the franchise, and is a marked improvement over CR's good intentions/not quite so good follow through.  But as the best parts of CR are the tenser moments with LeChiffre, I can see the argument about QOS being the continuation/filling out of the Quantum storyline, sure.  Hoping that 23 has more of the same. ajb007/bond

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

I don't find QoS one of the worst Bond films by a long shot, but it certainly is not among the best, either.  I think the problem is it's a close out on the Vesper relationship and as such carries a lot of baggage that works against it.  I do feel it makes the point that the closer they stick to the original Fleming storylines the better the Bond films seem to be.

Pyrat
Reflections in a double bourbon...

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

pyrat wrote:

I don't find QoS one of the worst Bond films by a long shot, but it certainly is not among the best, either.  I think the problem is it's a close out on the Vesper relationship and as such carries a lot of baggage that works against it.  I do feel it makes the point that the closer they stick to the original Fleming storylines the better the Bond films seem to be.


IMO the very fact QoS closes out the Vesper/Bond relationship is the main reason why I love this film....as did MANY people whom ventured to the cinema to watch it - that's a fact that is proven by it's box office take....

I'm not convinced by your second point either....other than OHMSS the other films don't really stick THAT close to the original Fleming storylines....some of them do use the basic premise of the book (to a more or less extent) but more don't than do...unless you only like a few Bond films that is ajb007/lol

YNWA: Justice For The 96

A spectre of my mortal soul

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

Come off it Sir Miles, a high box office take counts for not much, many go in and see it once simply because they liked its predecessor, CR. To be a big hit, you just have to get everyone in to see it once,  they pay the same whether they liked it or not.

I'd argue CR was a success because of adhering to Fleming's writing, QoS represented a failure of nerve.

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

Come to think of it, my top five are those which more closely parallel the Fleming novels.  ajb007/smile

Pyrat
Reflections in a double bourbon...

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

I recently read on another forum ajb007/shifty that M forster has given an Interview stating that QOS didn't turn out the way he wanted, Glad he's come round to my way of thinking. ajb007/lol

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

Sir Miles wrote:
pyrat wrote:

I don't find QoS one of the worst Bond films by a long shot, but it certainly is not among the best, either.  I think the problem is it's a close out on the Vesper relationship and as such carries a lot of baggage that works against it.  I do feel it makes the point that the closer they stick to the original Fleming storylines the better the Bond films seem to be.


IMO the very fact QoS closes out the Vesper/Bond relationship is the main reason why I love this film....as did MANY people whom ventured to the cinema to watch it - that's a fact that is proven by it's box office take....

I'm not convinced by your second point either....other than OHMSS the other films don't really stick THAT close to the original Fleming storylines....some of them do use the basic
premise of the book (to a more or less extent) but more don't than do...unless you only like




few Bond films that is ajb007/lol

We don't know for sure that it does close it out...I hope so as I have had more Vesper than I can possibly take, her ghost haunts QOS and I'm hoping that 23 ploughs new ground. Part of the problem is that in order to work we must also fall a little in love with her, and the listless
performance by Eva Green did little to help. CR was a success in both a commercial and artistic sense inspite of her and not because of her (she is no Tracy when all said and done)

Even if you disagree and feel that EG did a great job as Vesper. Surely you would agree that the script never gave the relationship the space to develop and be credible, I for one never bought it. It does not stop me feeling that CR was a noble addition to the franchise , however it did mean that it was a very weak foundation to lay for QOS (I kept thinking ' cheer up mate, there are plenty more scrikey miserable looking women around son')

I agree that Box Office is a very poor criteria to fall back on, and is frankly beneath you to resort to it.

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

Box office is an indicator of how the general public reacts to a film.  It is not without faults as some very good films are not widely received or even distributed.  But it does indicate how the larger group reacts to a given product.  In the final analysis, even though we have great fun arguing the finer points, on an individual basis, only the viewers personal preferences are relevant, and no more right or wrong then the next fellows.  Think of box office as sociology and an individual review as psychology, group behavior vs individual behavior.

Pyrat
Reflections in a double bourbon...

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

Factoring in inflation, there isn't much difference in BO for the last 6 Bond films, CR leads them all but it seems a slim margin, easy to point to it riding the reboot fever of the past decade, it pulled in few extra ticket buyers but generally speaking, Bond has a finite audience.  That's striking to me considering what I think of as the radically significant differences between some of the last 6 films.  But again, I guess for the general public, it's just all a bunch of Bond, and they go see it regardless of who is Bond or if it's set in outer space or grounded with choppy editing or whatever.  We can debate our likes/dislikes, but really hard to say what the world thinks of DAD or QOS or GE except that they drug in the usual Bond audience, give or take (actually as much as it curdles me to say it, one can point to GE as establishing the modern Bond audience, the gap from the 80s plus Bond entering the video game age was quite the hurdle, and that film cleared it with ease).

We're sitting pretty in a new Bond fan era like we haven't seen since at least the 70s.  Doesn't suck. ajb007/bond

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

Napoleon Plural wrote:

Come off it Sir Miles, a high box office take counts for not much, many go in and see it once simply because they liked its predecessor, CR. To be a big hit, you just have to get everyone in to see it once,  they pay the same whether they liked it or not.

I'd argue CR was a success because of adhering to Fleming's writing, QoS represented a failure of nerve.

Nap, I expected far better from you....

A high box office take does count for a lot....and you know damn well it does....if the first Bond film hadn't done well at the box office, then there wouldn't have been a second...let alone another 21 !

And trying to get everyone in to see it once is easy ajb007/confused You ask the makers of Green Lantern how they managed to get everyone in to see it once...oh no, you can't...because they didn't ! Perhaps not as easy as you think, eh ?

You really think the entire box office for QoS didn't include repeat business...???....and if the film was really THAT bad then word-of-mouth alone would have adversely affected the box office take....and it didn't....

Come on Nap - despite what people say - you ARE better than that ajb007/tongue

YNWA: Justice For The 96

A spectre of my mortal soul

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

zaphod wrote:

I agree that Box Office is a very poor criteria to fall back on, and is frankly beneath you to resort to it.

I can only assume that your comment is aimed at me...so....

Explain why box office take is "very poor criteria to fall back on"...?...it's what most of the studios use to measure success...

And why is it beneath me to resort to it ??? That phrase is normally trotted out by people whom cannot construct a decent counter-arguement....and, frankly, that's beneath you !

YNWA: Justice For The 96

A spectre of my mortal soul

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

To me whether a film is a financial success or not is not part of the equation of its quality.   Its a question of whether I think its good or not. Narratively and technically.  Although repeat viewings was not something I understood until I realised I saw CR 6 times at the cinema - simply because I had the option and loved watching it on the big screen.  By and large, Modern tv and film has shown high rating figures and quality do not often go hand in hand. - But high ratings means money, so we get more of the same. Look at reality tv!

QoS is the first Bond film I did not enjoy,  because the flash editing literally hurt my eyes. - I saw it twice at the cinema, and in spite of everyone's good intentions (except the director who simply made an arty-farty mess) it just didn't work.  - My take on its technical flaws.
  The only saving grace for me WERE the scenes that touched upon CR - specifically, the initial portion of White's torture (when he realises MI6 are in the dark,) Bond and Mathias in Italy and later on the plane while Bond gets blotto (Dave Arnold's music helps here) and the final scene when Bond finishes speaking with M,and walks away dropping Vesper's love knot in the snow.  -  Certainly this film is not part two of Casino Royale, it is a film entry by itself.  Trouble is, it did not do a decent enough job of establishing that.  - To me, resolving Vesper's storyline left over from CR, is its only positive legacy.  On the down side it creates the impression its a straight carry on of that story. 

  As a villain Greene is uninteresting, we learn nothing about Quantum worth knowing, the plot is too cryptic and complicated, Bond himself is out of character -  a rebellious, cold  killing machine, with M in the wings looking over his shoulder at every turn. (and location?!) The lack of any humour.  - Not to mention gratuitous hit you on the head references to the previous films in the franchise. Dr No style  dinner suit, Goldfinger death by body coating, even Quantum itself seems to be an ill defined  shadow reprise of Spectre for the reboot era! Etc etc.   - These ingredients a good Bond film do NOT make.   - To me these are the  Narrative flaws.  Bond films should be setting standards for others to follow, not falling back on history, and also running on the spot!

I'd be the first to say the Bond films have ebbed and weaved over the decades. That's why the film series is still with us. - Compare the elements of Dr No with OHMSS, Moonraker, TWINE, and CR and you have films that are radically different in style and content. But for me, QoS is the first where I can say I went to see a Bond film at the cinema and came out confused and very disappointed.

    - Twice.

Last edited by Thunderbird 2 (19th Jul 2011 21:18)

This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

Thunderbird 2 wrote:

To me whether a film is a financial success or not is not part of the equation of its quality.   Its a question of whether I think its good or not.

I agree with you...but the film studios may not ajb007/lol

And just because YOU think it's a good film does not make it so....but, again, I agree with the sentiment of your post.

Thunderbird2 wrote:

But for me, QoS is the first where I can say I went to see a Bond film at the cinema and came out confused and very disappointed.

    - Twice.

Really ??? You enjoyed DAD ajb007/confused

YNWA: Justice For The 96

A spectre of my mortal soul

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

Sir Miles wrote:
Napoleon Plural wrote:

Come off it Sir Miles, a high box office take counts for not much, many go in and see it once simply because they liked its predecessor, CR. To be a big hit, you just have to get everyone in to see it once,  they pay the same whether they liked it or not.

I'd argue CR was a success because of adhering to Fleming's writing, QoS represented a failure of nerve.

Nap, I expected far better from you....

A high box office take does count for a lot....and you know damn well it does....if the first Bond film hadn't done well at the box office, then there wouldn't have been a second...let alone another 21 !

And trying to get everyone in to see it once is easy ajb007/confused You ask the makers of Green Lantern how they managed to get everyone in to see it once...oh no, you can't...because they didn't ! Perhaps not as easy as you think, eh ?

You really think the entire box office for QoS didn't include repeat business...???....and if the film was really THAT bad then word-of-mouth alone would have adversely affected the box office take....and it didn't....

Come on Nap - despite what people say - you ARE better than that ajb007/tongue

C'mon Sir Miles, you're going mad. It's as bad as highhopes in his darkest hour.

On that basis, TB is the best Bond movie hands down if  you look at another thread based on admissions, it's streets ahead. Now I like TB, but its success is down to Bond fever and how brilliant GF was. Green Lantern didn't work because nobody got the concept or the franchise and it has no built-in audience, unlike Bond. And it got bad reviews. It is easy to get people in once to see a movie, if you have brand loyalty and a gimmick of sorts, or the last one in the series was good. (I'm thinking Spidey 3, or any of the Star Wars prequels) All which applied to QoS. For QoS to fail, it would have to have worked hard indeed.

"This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

Roger Moore 1927-2017

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

Napoleon Plural wrote:
Sir Miles wrote:
Napoleon Plural wrote:

Come off it Sir Miles, a high box office take counts for not much, many go in and see it once simply because they liked its predecessor, CR. To be a big hit, you just have to get everyone in to see it once,  they pay the same whether they liked it or not.

I'd argue CR was a success because of adhering to Fleming's writing, QoS represented a failure of nerve.

Nap, I expected far better from you....

A high box office take does count for a lot....and you know damn well it does....if the first Bond film hadn't done well at the box office, then there wouldn't have been a second...let alone another 21 !

And trying to get everyone in to see it once is easy ajb007/confused You ask the makers of Green Lantern how they managed to get everyone in to see it once...oh no, you can't...because they didn't ! Perhaps not as easy as you think, eh ?

You really think the entire box office for QoS didn't include repeat business...???....and if the film was really THAT bad then word-of-mouth alone would have adversely affected the box office take....and it didn't....

Come on Nap - despite what people say - you ARE better than that ajb007/tongue

C'mon Sir Miles, you're going mad. It's as bad as highhopes in his darkest hour.

On that basis, TB is the best Bond movie hands down if  you look at another thread based on admissions, it's streets ahead. Now I like TB, but its success is down to Bond fever and how brilliant GF was. Green Lantern didn't work because nobody got the concept or the franchise and it has no built-in audience, unlike Bond. And it got bad reviews. It is easy to get people in once to see a movie, if you have brand loyalty and a gimmick of sorts, or the last one in the series was good. (I'm thinking Spidey 3, or any of the Star Wars prequels) All which applied to QoS. For QoS to fail, it would have to have worked hard indeed.

Who said best box office equals best film ? I said that a films success can be measured by its box office return.
Keep clutching for those straws Nap ajb007/biggrin

YNWA: Justice For The 96

A spectre of my mortal soul

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

Sir Miles wrote:
zaphod wrote:

I agree that Box Office is a very poor criteria to fall back on, and is frankly beneath you to resort to it.

I can only assume that your comment is aimed at me...so....

Explain why box office take is "very poor criteria to fall back on"...?...it's what most of the studios use to measure success...

And why is it beneath me to resort to it ??? That phrase is normally trotted out by people whom cannot construct a decent counter-arguement....and, frankly, that's beneath you !

Really don't want to get into a spat with you, and my ' beneath you ' comment was intended asa compliment rather than a put down as I felt it fell short of your normally high standard of argument. It smacked of pique that's all, no offence intended. Of course Box office matters' but on the back of such a high profile success as CR QOS was almost bomb proof, despite at best mixed critical and fan reaction. I think 23 could suffer if early notices and vibes are anything less than euphoric. Personally I have a really good feeling about 23. There have been mutterings that EON, DC, & Forster have misgivings re the way QOS Panned out despite and not because of it's box office take. Maybe I should have elaborated along those lines in my earlier post so as not to cause offence. The great joy of this virtual space for me is the fact that we can and do debate so passionately about something that most of the world regards as fluff.

So, bygones?

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

zaphod wrote:

Really don't want to get into a spat with you, and my ' beneath you ' comment was intended asa compliment rather than a put down as I felt it fell short of your normally high standard of argument. It smacked of pique that's all, no offence intended. Of course Box office matters' but on the back of such a high profile success as CR QOS was almost bomb proof, despite at best mixed critical and fan reaction. I think 23 could suffer if early notices and vibes are anything less than euphoric. Personally I have a really good feeling about 23. There have been mutterings that EON, DC, & Forster have misgivings re the way QOS Panned out despite and not because of it's box office take. Maybe I should have elaborated along those lines in my earlier post so as not to cause offence. The great joy of this virtual space for me is the fact that we can and do debate so passionately about something that most of the world regards as fluff.

So, bygones?

No spat going on here....just a frank exchange of views (not THAT frank really)....it's great when people can 'argue' and still keep it civil....or just understand that different people have different views, and can live with that ajb007/biggrin

So....

I honestly don't think many films (if any) are bomb proof...of course QoS would do good business...but QoS did exceptional business...even more remarkable when you consider the film really does split people...it's certainly the 'marmite' of the series...
...I've yet to read any mutterings from the people you mention that they were disappointed with QoS...any chance of some links from all these people/organisations to back this up please...?...

And no offence was taken...passions can (and do) run high at times...as long as we give each other a bit of slack for that...it's all fine by me ajb007/martini

YNWA: Justice For The 96

A spectre of my mortal soul

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

Sir Miles wrote:
Thunderbird 2 wrote:

To me whether a film is a financial success or not is not part of the equation of its quality.   Its a question of whether I think its good or not.

I agree with you...but the film studios may not ajb007/lol

And just because YOU think it's a good film does not make it so....but, again, I agree with the sentiment of your post.

Thunderbird2 wrote:

But for me, QoS is the first where I can say I went to see a Bond film at the cinema and came out confused and very disappointed.

    - Twice.

Really ??? You enjoyed DAD ajb007/confused

Oh I learned very quickly the only person who is qualified to critique a film (or any other art / media form) - is that individual themselves. Professional critics are just paid because they are very good at spouting what THEY think in professional terms!  None of us are any different, except we have integrity - because we are not part of the press machine! ajb007/tongue

You will have to forgive me M -  but although at the cinema I cringed at DAD, and only saw it at the cinema once, I have seen it on tv a few times and yes, I prefer it to QoS!  DAD is over the top, far too much tech, Toby Stevens (poor man) is questionable casting as Graves, the film has a risible ending, - but its the Brosnan version of Diamonds or Moonraker.  Not the best, but still watchable and in places quite enjoyable.  -  Plus Rosa Pike is entertaining as Frost!  - The DVD commentary by Brosnan and Pike is entertaining and thoughtful.

As an aside, I agree with your Marmite analogy for QoS.  Can't help but wonder how much money it made from all that product placement?  - I wouldn't mind as much if I actually liked Sony phones, or Tom Ford suits!   ajb007/biggrin

This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?

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Re: Quantum Of Solace=Casino Royale 2?

Thunderbird 2 wrote:

You will have to forgive me M -  but although at the cinema I cringed at DAD, and only saw it at the cinema once, I have seen it on tv a few times and yes, I prefer it to QoS!  DAD is over the top, far too much tech, Toby Stevens (poor man) is questionable casting as Graves, the film has a risible ending, - but its the Brosnan version of Diamonds or Moonraker.  Not the best, but still watchable and in places quite enjoyable.  -  Plus Rosa Pike is entertaining as Frost!  - The DVD commentary by Brosnan and Pike is entertaining and thoughtful.

If you enjoyed DAD more than QoS...that's fine with me...you are obviously wrong...but I forgive you ajb007/lol

Thunderbird2 wrote:

As an aside, I agree with your Marmite analogy for QoS.  Can't help but wonder how much money it made from all that product placement?  - I wouldn't mind as much if I actually liked Sony phones, or Tom Ford suits!   ajb007/biggrin

Isn't that money put towards the cost of making the film and not used as profits ?

I'm not over keen on Sony mobiles either...but I'd happily take a Tom Ford suit ajb007/biggrin

YNWA: Justice For The 96

A spectre of my mortal soul