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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

But probably still better than squeezing the words "Octopussy" or "Quantum of Solace" into song lyrics.

I don't hate TMWTGG, I mean it was the1970s, most of the comparable music was glam rock... mud, anyone?

"How was your lamb?" "Skewered. One sympathises."

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

I've thought the same thing as the OP. The song isn't all that bad. It's catchy, it's fun, and it's a James Bond song! I have no problems with it ajb007/smile

"Better luck next time... slugheads!"

1. GoldenEye  2. Goldfinger  3. Skyfall  4. OHMSS  5. TWINE

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

BIG TAM wrote:

I think it's rather a funky piece & Lulu belts it out with great gusto. What's not to like? Is it seen as a bit of a come down after LIVE & LET DIE? I think it's better than A VIEW TO A KILL which seems to get heaped with plaudits.

Hello Big Tam, I will say it's probably my least fave, but I think I can come up with some good specific reasons.

It is way too literal lyrics wise. Some Bond songs tell a specific story to set up the movie--Goldfinger, we learn a lot about the villain, but in that beautiful, brassy powerful way and the lyrics are more dark, seductive, suggestive than literal. It's very heavy on the way gold lures you in and warns of specific danger to women, "....a golden girl knows when he's kissed her, it's the kiss of death from Mr. Goldfinger..." Those are strong lyrics which stand on their own, and also give understanding to what we're going to see, and symbolize what it's about, gold, danger, death, trapped, pulled in.

Man With Golden Gun by contrast sounds like the classified ads in Hitman Times, "A million dollars a shot" "His gun's for hire" etc. And that title in the lyrics doesn't sound cool--nearly all Bond films are pretty clever and creative in the way they slip the title into that opening music, but Golden Gun just didn't work for me.

Imagine "Goldfinger....he wants to rob Ft. Knox...gonna spray some nerve gas today-ayay" Would not be the same would it? I also found that the best Bond themes have a steady catchy rhythm whether the music is up tempo or slow lush and stately.  Golden Gun fiddles with a 70s rock sound then slows to a crawl, speeds up again, annoying.

Other types of Bond songs are way more symbolic with lyrics which are fun to figure out. Sir Paul McC nailed it for Live and Let Die with the innocent youth that became a hardened killer idea--"When you were young and your heart was an open book...so live and let DIEEEE!" Makes one think of Bond a young man who was destined to have a job to do, do it well, give the other fella hell. It's a great work because it tells you about Bond and what he is--loss of innocence now licensed to kill. And it's plain old great rock n roll--another test for Bond songs, does it make sense, is it a great song, if you knew nothing about oo7, and you just heard it randomly on the radio? Bond songs are very tricky and catchy that way.   

Again best Bond themes play around with how much story to tell, or whether to tell more about the big themes of Bond's life, death lurks, danger, excitement, thrill, seduction, with women who want him, know he's dangerous, don't care, all sorts of ideas. Golden Gun didn't have that content, style down at all IMHO. And Lulu was a fine singer, listen to her on To Sir With Love, still a strong, slow, 1960s rock ballad that really shows off her voice and sounds fantastic after all these years. Certainly she was the right singer, perhaps just the wrong song for her.

Regards, Felix, Leiter Cat

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

its just LULU I hate her voice, even on my Bond album in my car I always  skip that track, even A-HA s tune on TLD is better
and I hate them ,(not personally its an age thing) ajb007/smile

By the way, did I tell you,  I was       "Mad"?

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

Agreed. I hate it when people are younger and better looking than me.   ajb007/tongue   ajb007/lol

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

always shaken wrote:

its just LULU I hate her voice, even on my Bond album in my car I always  skip that track, even A-HA s tune on TLD is better
and I hate them ,(not personally its an age thing) ajb007/smile

Really ? You hare a~ah ? What age are you ?  I thought you would have been around their age group...I like them.

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

Sir Miles wrote:
always shaken wrote:

its just LULU I hate her voice, even on my Bond album in my car I always  skip that track, even A-HA s tune on TLD is better
and I hate them ,(not personally its an age thing) ajb007/smile

Really ? You hare a~ah ? What age are you ?  I thought you would have been around their age group...I like them.

now,  you mention it  Morten Harket is 2 months older than me ,its a boy band thing ,not my thing more a motown man

By the way, did I tell you,  I was       "Mad"?

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

always shaken wrote:

now,  you mention it  Morten Harket is 2 months older than me ,its a boy band thing ,not my thing more a motown man

Thought you would be around that age...and hardly a boy-band anymore  ajb007/lol  although I did go to a gig of theirs at the height of their fame...and bloody good it was too  ajb007/biggrin

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

Felix the Leitercat wrote:
BIG TAM wrote:

I think it's rather a funky piece & Lulu belts it out with great gusto. What's not to like? Is it seen as a bit of a come down after LIVE & LET DIE? I think it's better than A VIEW TO A KILL which seems to get heaped with plaudits.

Hello Big Tam, I will say it's probably my least fave, but I think I can come up with some good specific reasons.

It is way too literal lyrics wise. Some Bond songs tell a specific story to set up the movie--Goldfinger, we learn a lot about the villain, but in that beautiful, brassy powerful way and the lyrics are more dark, seductive, suggestive than literal. It's very heavy on the way gold lures you in and warns of specific danger to women, "....a golden girl knows when he's kissed her, it's the kiss of death from Mr. Goldfinger..." Those are strong lyrics which stand on their own, and also give understanding to what we're going to see, and symbolize what it's about, gold, danger, death, trapped, pulled in.

Man With Golden Gun by contrast sounds like the classified ads in Hitman Times, "A million dollars a shot" "His gun's for hire" etc. And that title in the lyrics doesn't sound cool--nearly all Bond films are pretty clever and creative in the way they slip the title into that opening music, but Golden Gun just didn't work for me.

Imagine "Goldfinger....he wants to rob Ft. Knox...gonna spray some nerve gas today-ayay" Would not be the same would it? I also found that the best Bond themes have a steady catchy rhythm whether the music is up tempo or slow lush and stately.  Golden Gun fiddles with a 70s rock sound then slows to a crawl, speeds up again, annoying.

Other types of Bond songs are way more symbolic with lyrics which are fun to figure out. Sir Paul McC nailed it for Live and Let Die with the innocent youth that became a hardened killer idea--"When you were young and your heart was an open book...so live and let DIEEEE!" Makes one think of Bond a young man who was destined to have a job to do, do it well, give the other fella hell. It's a great work because it tells you about Bond and what he is--loss of innocence now licensed to kill. And it's plain old great rock n roll--another test for Bond songs, does it make sense, is it a great song, if you knew nothing about oo7, and you just heard it randomly on the radio? Bond songs are very tricky and catchy that way.   

Again best Bond themes play around with how much story to tell, or whether to tell more about the big themes of Bond's life, death lurks, danger, excitement, thrill, seduction, with women who want him, know he's dangerous, don't care, all sorts of ideas. Golden Gun didn't have that content, style down at all IMHO. And Lulu was a fine singer, listen to her on To Sir With Love, still a strong, slow, 1960s rock ballad that really shows off her voice and sounds fantastic after all these years. Certainly she was the right singer, perhaps just the wrong song for her.

Regards, Felix, Leiter Cat

Excellent analysis! ajb007/martini  And I completely agree about Lulu - her rendition of To Sir With Love, with its touching and heart-felt lyrics, made for a beautiful and memorable title song. The Man With The Golden Gun - not so much.

"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

TMWTGG (the song) makes me smile cause it has a slight hippy/dippy quality about it. It refects the timeframe of the film as much as it tries to talk about Scaramanga as a character. Certainly a contrast to Dame Shirley's Goldfinger, yet both songs are about the nature of the villain. Its unusual in its style, but as others have noted Lulu puts her all into it. To me that in itself puts it on the same level as the efforts by Matt Munroe, Tom Jones, Nancy Sinatra, The Wings, Duran Duran and A-ha. 


The only Bond song I can't listen to (I include CR-67 and NSNA here,) is Another Way To Die from QoS.  Although I have gained some appreciation for the film itself thanks to slow play on my DVD player, I can't stand that song!  Its bombastic, crass, uneven and lacks subtlety or style. Not to mention Jack White looks worryingly unwell in the video.
- Its funny, cause I have listened to both White and Alicia Keys  singing other songs as soloists and with other performers, and they sound great, they are good at what they do! That particular song though just does not work.

This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

Thunderbird 2 wrote:

Its funny, cause I have listened to both White and Alicia Keys  singing other songs as soloists and with other performers, and they sound great, they are good at what they do!

Precisely - that's why the song is such a disappointment, although I don't dislike it quite as much as I did when I first heard it.

"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

Art is in the beholder's eye and ear.  Being able to paint and sculpt myself and working professionally as an artist, I personally have never seen how anyone can like modern art.  If someone offered me a Picasso worth millions, I'd take it, but then sell it so I could use some of it to buy an original Sargent or Renoir.

I enjoy most of the Bond theme music.  In the case of TWTGG, I dislike it for the reasons given in Felix the Leitercat's post.  Also, I know Bond's job involves killing and death, but using adjectives and adverbs like shoot, kill, die, etc. as much as possible in the lyrics just smacks of lazy writing.

This goes back to the EON blueprint.  It was set in stone and one of the commandments was that the title song had to have lyrics, because GF went boffo in the charts.  Barry did OHMSS - which I put second after GF in my list - but the film didn't do as well so no more instrumentals only.  I know..that had nothing to do with the box office, but they lumped it in as another reason.

TMWTGG should have been done like OHMSS or FRWL.  The lyrics over the closing credits should have been sufficient if they wanted to keep that version (at least one could leave the theater and avoid them).  It's even my least favorite Barry melody.  I agree with Barry - it doesn't work because he was trying to work with those awful lyrics.

I know many dislike You Know My Name and SF, but I like both because they are lyrically creative.  Some dislike YKMN because it's a driving rock piece (well so was LALD).  I thought it was a good choice for the reboot because it was an in your face, aggressive piece that covered the themes in the story, gambling, Bond's job (winning, odds, death, trust, betrayal, detached emotion).  Skyfall is haunting and covers Bond's evolution from childhood trauma to his damaged adulthood along with his relationship with M and his job ("You may have my number, you can take my name, but you'll never have my heart..").

TMWTGG is just pompous.  Even Bassey could not have saved it.

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

I hate the way she stretches out the word "gun". "The man with the golden guu-huuuun"

Have you ever heard of the Emancipation Proclamation?"

" I don't listen to hip hop!"

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

John Barry himself is on record (pun not intended) as disliking TMWTGG and blaming it on the short time he was given to come up with the movie's score. Normally, he'd compose other pieces to use within the film (eg, for OHMSS he wrote the title theme and  "We Have All The Time In The World" which turn up in various forms on the soundtrack, as well as "Try", "Do You Know How Christmas Trees Are Grown?" and "Who Will Buy My Yesterdays"- a great melody only partially heard at the time) but here he relies on variations of the main theme almost exclusively, and given that it's not one of his most inspired melodies it makes for a disappointing listen.
Pomposity isn't necessarily a drawback to a great Bond theme ("Nobody Does It Better"). Rock pieces aren't inappropriate either; YKMN works splendidly both as a song and within the CR score.
In my view the main problems with James Bond songs have occurred when executive meddling takes place- eg Arnold not being allowed to use his planned themes for the main title song because someone insists that Madonna or Sheryl Crow should both write and sing them!

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

Barbel wrote:

In my view the main problems with James Bond songs have occurred when executive meddling takes place- eg Arnold not being allowed to use his planned themes for the main title song because someone insists that Madonna or Sheryl Crow should both write and sing them!

Point well-taken.  For example, it was a big mistake not to use "Surrender" as the title theme for TND. Perhaps not the most egregious mistake of all, but a mistake nevertheless.

"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

Blackleiter wrote:
Barbel wrote:

In my view the main problems with James Bond songs have occurred when executive meddling takes place- eg Arnold not being allowed to use his planned themes for the main title song because someone insists that Madonna or Sheryl Crow should both write and sing them!

Point well-taken.  For example, it was a big mistake not to use "Surrender" as the title theme for TND. Perhaps not the most egregious mistake of all, but a mistake nevertheless.

+1, Blackleiter...+1!  When I heard Lang belt that out over the closing credits I was dumbfounded.  Seriously?  They didn't use that for the opening???
Not only did it have Barry's signature wahwah Bond horns through it, we get Lang's sulty voice and spirited performance as opposed to Crowe's weaker voice and lackluster execution.  To be fair, I think she is a good musician for what she produces, but in this case we got a glass of blended scotch instead of an aged single malt.

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

Yes, "Surrender" SHOULD have been the main title song. Arnold used it as the basis of his score, and the suits insisted the Sheryl Crow effort be used. Record company politics.

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

+1, I'm another fan of Surrender  ajb007/martini   and I seem to be one of the few who don't find the
theme to TMWTGG too bad.  ajb007/lol

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

Thunderpussy wrote:

+1, I'm another fan of Surrender  ajb007/martini   and I seem to be one of the few who don't find the
theme to TMWTGG too bad.  ajb007/lol

I like the instrumental version of the theme that plays at various points throughout TMWTGG.

"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

Preferred Alice Cooper's TMWTGG title song. So much cooler. However I don't mind Lulu's version in comparison to All Time High which I find pretty cringey.

Smiert Spionam

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

Smiert-Spionam wrote:

Preferred Alice Cooper's TMWTGG title song. So much cooler. However I don't mind Lulu's version in comparison to All Time High which I find pretty cringey.

I think All Time High is at the very bottom of my list of Bond theme songs.

"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."

47

Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

I think the lyrics clunk very heavy. The tune is sleazy.
It's not really a classy tune. I know that's an opinion only, I can't justify it very well, but it simply lacks sophistication, it's a duff piece of throwaway music, made tortuous by a wailing singer.

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

John Barry himself thought it was crap.

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

Am I alone in liking TMWTGG?  ajb007/lol
I think its jazzy and groovy and quite upbeat which is in keeping with the tone of the film itself. And the lyrics are actually quite fun and clever.  ajb007/takecover

Seriously though, I think having a title song that fits well is important as it all contributes to having a film that has a clear and distinct direction/style and knows where it is going. All Time High I quite like because it fits well with Octopussy in being a laid back/lazy Sunday Afternoon type song which isn't to intense (like the film) as oppose to say Moonraker which is an elongated, rather simplistic ballad compared to a very cartoonish and frantic nature of the film.

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Re: Why Is The Man With The Golden Gun Title Song Hated So?

I've never ranked my Bond themes by order of preference, but I know that TMWTGG would not come last, and likely wouldn't even come in the bottom quarter. I consider All Time High and Die Another Day considerably worse, just off the top of my head and even prefer TMWTGG to QoS.