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Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

DEFIANT 74205 wrote:
minigeff wrote:

As for the whole 'M being the mother figure', this theme has been around as long as Dench has played M. For it to be fully 'admitted', 'acknowledged' etc is no big deal for me. It's just part of the characters relationship and the plot, so what's the big deal? M acts as a mother figure to orphan James.... AND? Big deal.

That's not the way the character was written by Fleming. Hell, M isn't even supposed to be a woman! At least if the producers are going down that route in the name of political correctness, then at least make her every bit Bond's boss as Bernard Lee was, as opposed to an overbearing mother.

Ok, hold on a minute and you might wanna sit down.

Ian Fleming is dead.

In fact, he's been pushing up daisys for quite some time now. I know this is gonna be a right kick in the balls, so I'm sorry, but after his death, quite a few people have been writing bond books and films, and they've brought the character and the whole franchise into the 21st century.

I suppose you'll be tearful with the thought of no more "man talk (slap)" or "fetch my shoes" scenes?

Welcome to 2012.

'Force feeding AJB humour and banter since 2009'
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org

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Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

minigeff wrote:

Ian Fleming is dead.

So? That doesn't give the producers a free licence to mess up Fleming's work. And before some smartass replies that Fleming sold the rights to his books to EON, I'm not talking about a legal right, I'm talking about a moral right. The producers have a moral responsibility to maintain true to Fleming's original concept. Some films have done this better than others.

I have no problem with modernising the character to a (very) limited extent - such as incorporating modern technology and new cars in the films, for instance - but the major characters must remain faithful to the original concept. Yes, that means M should be a man, and he should be no more to Bond than a boss (and conversely, Bond should be no more to M than a subordinate, at least outwardly), and Bond should have a cigarette in his mouth on film every now and then, along with all the other Fleming Bond traits. The major characters in the films should remain recognisably similar to the characters that appear in the novels.

"Watch the birdie, you bastard!"

Favourite Bond films list

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Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

Sorry bub, but the Cold War era and the old ways of Fleming just wouldn't fit in with today's society, that's why all the arse slapping went out ages ago.

Ok, so bond was Fleming's creation, well he's gone and no one from his family took the torch, Cubby and Harry did, that got passed to Babs and Mike.

What would you prefer, Bond to continue into the brave new world or stop because Fleming ain't around to have any input?

'Force feeding AJB humour and banter since 2009'
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org

54

Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

minigeff wrote:

Sorry bub, but the Cold War era and the old ways of Fleming just wouldn't fit in with today's society, that's why all the arse slapping went out ages ago.

There's a difference between altering the plot and the setting to make the film more contemporary, and messing around with the characters that Fleming created. I don't have a problem with the former (provided they remain somewhat true to Fleming's creation), but I do have a problem with the latter. The storylines can change, but the characters should not.

"Watch the birdie, you bastard!"

Favourite Bond films list

55

Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

DEFIANT 74205 wrote:
minigeff wrote:

Sorry bub, but the Cold War era and the old ways of Fleming just wouldn't fit in with today's society, that's why all the arse slapping went out ages ago.

There's a difference between altering the plot and the setting to make the film more contemporary, and messing around with the characters that Fleming created. I don't have a problem with the former (provided they remain somewhat true to Fleming's creation), but I do have a problem with the latter. The storylines can change, but the characters should not.

The storylines change, and the characters have to!

When Dench started out in GE, it was becoming the social norm for women to have an equal standing in the work place (er, barbara?). It was perfectly reasonable and realistic for M to be a woman.

If the characters stayed the same, M would be a grumpy old man and bond would still be slapping girl's arses and demanding a black man fetch his shoes.

You have to take into account that not everything about the original Fleming characters is socially acceptable or realistic these days. Times change and so does bond, he and the whole franchise has to in order for the films to be relevent and successful. Can you imagine the backlash if at a press conference Babs and Mike announced Fiennes' role was due to women not being capable of such authority?

We'd love to live in the past wouldn't we, with arse slapping, chomby shoe fetchers and sexist comments a-pently, but I'm afraid that times have moved on, I suggest you attempt to do the same.

MG

'Force feeding AJB humour and banter since 2009'
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org

56

Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

minigeff wrote:

When Dench started out in GE, it was becoming the social norm for women to have an equal standing in the work place (er, barbara?). It was perfectly reasonable and realistic for M to be a woman.

That's no excuse for changing a fictional character that Fleming created. M is not written as a woman and should not be, regardless of what the social norms are. It's not about whether women can be equal to or better than men; nor is it about women in the workforce holding senior positions, it's about remaining true to the characters that Fleming created.

minigeff wrote:

If the characters stayed the same, M would be a grumpy old man and bond would still be slapping girl's arses and demanding a black man fetch his shoes.

M is a grumpy old man.

But slapping a girl's arse and having Quarrel fetch Bond's shoes is a work of the early cinematic Bond. It did not come from Fleming.

minigeff wrote:

You have to take into account that not everything about the original Fleming characters is socially acceptable or realistic these days. Times change and so does bond, he and the whole franchise has to in order for the films to be relevent and successful. Can you imagine the backlash if at a press conference Babs and Mike announced Fiennes' role was due to women not being capable of such authority?

Having a man play the role of M isn't beause a woman is not capable of authority; it's because the character was written as a man. Therefore, being male is a prerequisite for the role.

Can you imagine the backlash if they hire a woman to play James Bond??

Last edited by DEFIANT 74205 (21st Dec 2012 15:06)

"Watch the birdie, you bastard!"

Favourite Bond films list

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Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

DEFIANT 74205 wrote:

Can you imagine the backlash if they hire a woman to play James Bond??

That's a straw man argument. James Bond is THE focus of the Ian Fleming novels; the other characters are just supporting players. It's not even remotely the same thing having M be a woman or Felix Leiter be Black as it would be to have James Bond be a female. Unless the Bond films are set in the past and totally ignore the contemporary world, I agree with minigeff that not only do the storylines have to change, but to a certain extent the characters have to change as well.

"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."

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Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

DEFIANT 74205 wrote:
minigeff wrote:

Sorry bub, but the Cold War era and the old ways of Fleming just wouldn't fit in with today's society, that's why all the arse slapping went out ages ago.

There's a difference between altering the plot and the setting to make the film more contemporary, and messing around with the characters that Fleming created. I don't have a problem with the former (provided they remain somewhat true to Fleming's creation), but I do have a problem with the latter. The storylines can change, but the characters should not.


I bet you're having a real problem with the Sherlock Holmes ouevre.  Now we have a Watson who is female and Holmes who is gay/a drug addict/a possible sociopath.

This sort of thing can be done well or poorly, depending on the level of talent involved.

Eventually, when the copyrights expire, you may have films where the main character is Q or M or Felix Leiter (or maybe Leiter is female).  Some of it may be good and some may be bad.  Unfortunately, I won't be around to see it.

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Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

James Bill wrote:
Napoleon Plural wrote:

Plus there's some other rubbish responses; how can Skyfall in any way complete some arc that precedes Connery's Dr No?

Connery's Bond is not so "fresh faced" in Dr. No. He's been a 00 for some time and Moneypenny is already there. There's even an equivalent of Q with major Boothroyd.
Craig got his licence to kill in Casino Royale and Moneypenny arrived in Skyfall. That's how his Bond precedes Connery's.
The only contradiction is Felix Leiter who doesn't appear the same way.
I didn't mean to say that CR, QoS, and SF happened before Dr. No, just that Craig's Bond has caught up with Connery's. And in SF, Bond is not as old as in NSNA.


I don't think we can compare Craig's films with any of the others.  CR was a complete reboot which means those other stories never happened in Craig's new universe and never will.  They even changed his backstory - he's now an SAS vet or some such choice as opposed to Naval Intelligence.  They only used CR because they finally got the rights and it was Bond's first job as a 00.  I doubt if you'll ever see any reference to the past films in the future..they really wanted the audience to know that by blowing up the Aston at the end of SF.

I can see some point to the characters not changing had they not rebooted the series.  Fleming did create them and there would have been no point in changing their identities and sexes or race in his world or if the old EON series had continued - you'd just get new actors.  However, they decided to create a new Bond universe for this century and in doing so allows them to change these characters to suit their purposes.  They just can't change their roles in the series.  After all, Bond is now blonde (or light brown, whatever) and is more Steve McQueen than a Lord Byron figure.  If they can change his looks that much and be accepted by most of the planet, then they can obviously change the other characters sexes, races, etc. to a certain degree to more reflect Englands more multi cultured mix.  I don't think we'll ever see a black or asian or female Bond any more than you'd see a black or latin Batman, but most audiences (who really aren't familiar with Fleming's original work) seem okay with them fiddling with the supporting characters. We can either accept this is how it is now or just keep muttering our dissatisfaction with the change.  Either way, it's how it is now and we have no say in it, only the box office has the vote.

Last edited by CmdrAtticus (21st Dec 2012 18:12)

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Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

CmdrAtticus wrote:

I don't think we can compare Craig's films with any of the others.  CR was a complete reboot which means those other stories never happened in Craig's new universe and never will.  They even changed his backstory - he's now an SAS vet or some such choice as opposed to Naval Intelligence.  They only used CR because they finally got the rights and it was Bond's first job as a 00.  I doubt if you'll ever see any reference to the past films in the future..they really wanted the audience to know that by blowing up the Aston at the end of SF.

I can see some point to the characters not changing had they not rebooted the series.  Fleming did create them and there would have been no point in changing their identities and sexes or race in his world or if the old EON series had continued - you'd just get new actors.  However, they decided to create a new Bond universe for this century and in doing so allows them to change these characters to suit their purposes.  They just can't change their roles in the series.  After all, Bond is now blonde (or light brown, whatever) and is more Steve McQueen than a Lord Byron figure.  If they can change his looks that much and be accepted by most of the planet, then they can obviously change the other characters sexes, races, etc. to a certain degree to more reflect Englands more multi cultured mix.  I don't think we'll ever see a black or asian or female Bond any more than you'd see a black or latin Batman, but most audiences (who really aren't familiar with Fleming's original work) seem okay with them fiddling with the supporting characters. We can either accept this is how it is now or just keep muttering our dissatisfaction with the change.  Either way, it's how it is now and we have no say in it, only the box office has the vote.

Yes, I get it. The idiot I was responding to thought I was suggesting Craig's films took place before Connery's Dr No. That's not what I meant. I think YOU know what I meant so I'm not gonna go over it again.
However ( ajb007/rolleyes ), I do think we can compare Craig's films to the others, the same way we can compare J.J. Abrams' Star Trek to the original series, or Cumberbatch's Sherlock Holmes to Conan Doyle's: in terms of what works and what doesn't. That's the challenge of a reboot and the beauty of it when it's successful.
The reboot thing is not new anyway, we all know it. Bond was 58 in A View to a Kill and 2 years later he's back to 43 years old. If that's not a reboot, I don't know what is. The Brosnan films were a kind of reboot as well (because the opposite would be that they're in continuity, and if that was the case Bond would be old and retired in those films).
With the CR, QoS and SF "trilogy", the Craig films gave us something we never had before: an origin story. Which, in a way, means it was still kind of unfair to compare Craig's performance to the other actors'. The Bond he played is not yet "the best we have" like M says in the World is not Enough. He's sort of a "prequel Bond" (let's say "from an alternate universe" to avoid any dumb questions about "timeline") and the comparison should really start with Craig's next film now that all the elements are there to make it a fair comparison.

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Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

Gala Brand wrote:

I bet you're having a real problem with the Sherlock Holmes ouevre.  Now we have a Watson who is female and Holmes who is gay/a drug addict/a possible sociopath.

You're right about that, I'll be boycotting Elementary because it doesn't have Dr John Watson in it. There's absolutely no need to make Watson a woman, and an Asian one at that - not because an Asian female in the real world couldn't possibly be the sidekick to one of the world's greatest and most eccentric detectives, but because Watson wasn't written as a woman. I don't mind change so long as it brings something positive to the series, but a change for the sake of change (which is what I'd call any change only to appease the politically correct crowd) is not something I would endorse.

But now that you mentioned Sherlock Holmes, I think the series Sherlock starring Benedict Cumberbatch is the prime example of how you can modernise the plot and the setting without changing too much of the character(s).

These are works of fiction. They're not meant to be real. I fail to see how "social norms" should have any impact on how fictional characters are depicted on screen.

CmdrAtticus wrote:

most audiences (who really aren't familiar with Fleming's original work) seem okay with them fiddling with the supporting characters. We can either accept this is how it is now or just keep muttering our dissatisfaction with the change.  Either way, it's how it is now and we have no say in it, only the box office has the vote.

Unfortunately, you're quite right.

As a film, I enjoyed Skyfall - it was a terrific film, one I'd place in my top 10. So yes, in that sense I do accept that the cinematic Bond and the literary Bond are different. However, there are certain elements of the film that makes me cringe, particularly the evolution of M from being Bond's boss to being someone more akin to Bond's mother. It makes me cringe because I'm unashamedly a "Fleming purist" who knows all too well what the literary M is meant to be, and Dench's portrayal in recent films have drifted away from the primary role of M as Bond's boss. Unfortunately, the voices of Fleming purists are buried under the pile of money that EON are rolling in.

"Watch the birdie, you bastard!"

Favourite Bond films list

62

Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

Gala Brand wrote:

I bet you're having a real problem with the Sherlock Holmes ouevre.  Now we have a Watson who is female and Holmes who is gay/a drug addict/a possible sociopath.

Sherlock is gay ? What have you been watching ? Certainly NOT Elementary !

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

63

Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

I think most Americans see being British as Gay.   ajb007/tongue  ajb007/lol

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

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Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

Aren't they?  ajb007/biggrin 
That would be very surprising for me and I have to rethink Petes entire behaviour then over again  ajb007/tongue

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

65

Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

Bondtoys wrote:

Aren't they?  ajb007/biggrin 
That would be very surprising for me and I have to rethink Petes entire behaviour then over again  ajb007/tongue

Apparently when it comes to 'hide the brockwurst' you taught everything he knows  ajb007/amazed

'Force feeding AJB humour and banter since 2009'
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
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66

Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

It's called BOCKWURST, mate  ajb007/wink

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

67

Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

COCKworst more like ajb007/lol

'Force feeding AJB humour and banter since 2009'
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org

68

Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

ajb007/rolleyes

Now the red light on Sir Miles computer ( when the report button has been hit....) is going overload - again!

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

69

Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

Bondtoys wrote:

ajb007/rolleyes

Now the red light on Sir Miles computer ( when the report button has been hit....) is going overload - again!

ajb007/lol when pig goes on ajb, sir miles' computer lights up like Christmas tree.

'Force feeding AJB humour and banter since 2009'
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org

70

Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

Sir Miles wrote:
Gala Brand wrote:

I bet you're having a real problem with the Sherlock Holmes ouevre.  Now we have a Watson who is female and Holmes who is gay/a drug addict/a possible sociopath.

Sherlock is gay ? What have you been watching ? Certainly NOT Elementary !


See "The Private Life of Sherlock Homes" (great movie).  The current "Sherlock" series and the Robert Downey, Jr. movies have a whole "is he gay or not" subtext.  It's related to Holmes's general dislike for women, his attitude towards marriage, and his relationship with Watson.

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Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

Gala Brand wrote:
Sir Miles wrote:
Gala Brand wrote:

I bet you're having a real problem with the Sherlock Holmes ouevre.  Now we have a Watson who is female and Holmes who is gay/a drug addict/a possible sociopath.

Sherlock is gay ? What have you been watching ? Certainly NOT Elementary !


See "The Private Life of Sherlock Homes" (great movie).  The current "Sherlock" series and the Robert Downey, Jr. movies have a whole "is he gay or not" subtext.  It's related to Holmes's general dislike for women, his attitude towards marriage, and his relationship with Watson.

Isn't that a tad over - interpreted?

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

72

Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

Gala Brand wrote:
Sir Miles wrote:
Gala Brand wrote:

I bet you're having a real problem with the Sherlock Holmes ouevre.  Now we have a Watson who is female and Holmes who is gay/a drug addict/a possible sociopath.

Sherlock is gay ? What have you been watching ? Certainly NOT Elementary !


See "The Private Life of Sherlock Homes" (great movie).  The current "Sherlock" series and the Robert Downey, Jr. movies have a whole "is he gay or not" subtext.  It's related to Holmes's general dislike for women, his attitude towards marriage, and his relationship with Watson.

Sphericals !!

I think you have missed the WHOLE point of Sherlock Holmes  ajb007/insane

Check out Irene Adler and what she means to Holmes....

And in Elementary Watson IS a woman !

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

73

Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

Sir Miles wrote:
Gala Brand wrote:
Sir Miles wrote:

Sherlock is gay ? What have you been watching ? Certainly NOT Elementary !


See "The Private Life of Sherlock Homes" (great movie).  The current "Sherlock" series and the Robert Downey, Jr. movies have a whole "is he gay or not" subtext.  It's related to Holmes's general dislike for women, his attitude towards marriage, and his relationship with Watson.

Sphericals !!

I think you have missed the WHOLE point of Sherlock Holmes  ajb007/insane

Check out Irene Adler and what she means to Holmes....

And in Elementary Watson IS a woman !


He respected Adler for her intellect, even though she was a woman.

I thought the idea that Holmes might be gay was pretty well known.  Here the subject is beaten to death:

http://www.nekosmuse.com/sherlockholmes/subtext.htm

And then there's this:

http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/00029874.html

Not to mention this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/ar … n-gay.html

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Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

Am I on the wrong forum?  ajb007/insane

'Force feeding AJB humour and banter since 2009'
Vive le droit à la libre expression! Je suis Charlie!
www.helpforheroes.org.uk
www.cancerresearchuk.org

75

Re: observations on SKYFALL -- spoilers

minigeff wrote:

Am I on the wrong forum?  ajb007/insane

Lots of people have said that to me about you for years   ajb007/shifty    ajb007/lol

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6