Formula or cliche? And which should we expect in Bond 24?

Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
in SPECTRE - Bond 24 (2015)
One does not have to watch many Bond films to see the repetition of elements -- the requisite flirting with Moneypenny, the gadget that is exactly what Bond needs in a given situation, the sacrificial lamb who will motivate Bond to justice, etc. But how much of this is simply a part of the Bond formula that fans demand versus cliches some audiences have grown tired of? Is there a difference?

Which elements do we expect to see in Bond 24?
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Comments

  • Charmed & DangerousCharmed & Dangerous Posts: 7,358MI6 Agent
    Great question Gassy Man.

    IMO, it's a part if the formula that audiences love to see, provided it's an interesting variation on the theme. We know what we love in a classic Bond film, aNd that includes banter with Q, a scene with M, the sacrificial lamb, the chases. The lack of any one of these in a film makes no odds - look at the lack of gadgets in the DC films.

    A couple of years ago I made a disparaging comment to my wife about "chick-flicks" and how formulaic they are (boy meets girl, one of them contracts terminal illness, they all start singing Abba songs etc :)) ) and she just gave me this "pot calling the kettle black" look... :#
    "How was your lamb?" "Skewered. One sympathises."
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,208Chief of Staff
    I'm in sympathy with the last paragraph, C&D!

    Bond films have a ritual, and if too many essential elements of that ritual are omitted then the spirit has been lost. As C&D says, no one element is 100% vital. There are Bond films with no Q or Moneypenny, no use of the Walther PPK, no "Bond. James Bond", etc etc. Miss them ALL out and it isn't a Bond film.
    As to whether the use of such trademarks is cliche or formula, that's very subjective. I personally have a high tolerance level for cliches, and think that cinema-going audiences in general (as opposed to committed Bond fans) love trademark moments- audiences cheered when Q finally appeared in LTK, or at the unveiling of the DB5 in SF, for example.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    With Skyfall they reintroduced many of the old favourites, (I prefer the term Trademark to Cliché ) :D
    Q handing out some toys, Bond's interplay with Moneypenny, etc. Although they did it in a more
    contemporary way. -{ ...... and I agree the audience is waiting on them to appear. ;) like a kids
    bedtime story, we like the familiar. :))
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Gala BrandGala Brand Posts: 1,172MI6 Agent
    What was interesting in Skyfall waas how many of the familiar Bond tropes were turned around. In SF it's the bad guy attacking Bond in his lair and Bond blowing up his own lair instead of Bond attacking and blowing up the bad guy's lair. In SF the bad guy allowed himself to be captured in order to infiltrate MI6 instead of Bond allowing himself to be captured in order to infiltrate the bad guy's organization. Not to mention the Q/Bond impatient older man v. arrogant young man dynamic that was turned around.

    Maybe in Bond 24 James will ask Moneypenny out on a date and get turned down.
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    Gala Brand wrote:
    What was interesting in Skyfall waas how many of the familiar Bond tropes were turned around. In SF it's the bad guy attacking Bond in his lair and Bond blowing up his own lair instead of Bond attacking and blowing up the bad guy's lair. In SF the bad guy allowed himself to be captured in order to infiltrate MI6 instead of Bond allowing himself to be captured in order to infiltrate the bad guy's organization. Not to mention the Q/Bond impatient older man v. arrogant young man dynamic that was turned around.

    Maybe in Bond 24 James will ask Moneypenny out on a date and get turned down.

    Very interesting take! -{

    I agree with my fellow posters who still enjoy the Bond "trademarks" (thanks, TP!) as they have been updated from time to time.
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • BIG TAMBIG TAM Wrexham, North Wales, UK.Posts: 773MI6 Agent
    Gala Brand wrote:
    What was interesting in Skyfall waas how many of the familiar Bond tropes were turned around. In SF it's the bad guy attacking Bond in his lair and Bond blowing up his own lair instead of Bond attacking and blowing up the bad guy's lair. In SF the bad guy allowed himself to be captured in order to infiltrate MI6 instead of Bond allowing himself to be captured in order to infiltrate the bad guy's organization. Not to mention the Q/Bond impatient older man v. arrogant young man dynamic that was turned around.

    Maybe in Bond 24 James will ask Moneypenny out on a date and get turned down.

    Good observations. I too like the old formula given a new spin. The altering of the Bond/Q dynamic was a particular highlight.
  • AlphaOmegaSinAlphaOmegaSin EnglandPosts: 10,924MI6 Agent
    For Bond 24, Bond should join the Mystery Machine and help the Gang solve fiendish Plans :v
    1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    Wooby wooh !!! :))
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Lady RoseLady Rose London,UKPosts: 2,667MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    Bond films have a ritual, and if too many essential elements of that ritual are omitted then the spirit has been lost. As C&D says, no one element is 100% vital. There are Bond films with no Q or Moneypenny, no use of the Walther PPK, no "Bond. James Bond", etc etc. Miss them ALL out and it isn't a Bond film.

    Thats the key I think. Some part of the film has to be recognisable as a Bond film.

    Casual fans go to Bond movies expecting to see these elements. even if they play with it occasionally e.g.. CR when Bond is asked if he wants his martini shaken or stirred ... its still recognisable.

    I would hate to not see Bonds trademarks.
  • HowardBHowardB USAPosts: 2,742MI6 Agent
    I surely wouldn't mind the Gun Barrel Sequence being put back before the pre-titles sequence....to me it's not a cliche but more of a combination trademark and anouncement to the audience "fasten your seatbelts, James Bond is back". IMO, that Gun Barrel sequence always had a lot of impact on the audience (at least me).
  • AlphaOmegaSinAlphaOmegaSin EnglandPosts: 10,924MI6 Agent
    1 + -{
    1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I find the Gun barrel set's you up for the movie, almost like
    A doorway from the real world, to the world of Bond. {[] then
    The pts, hopefully will give you a buzz and make you think the
    Next two hours are going to be ....... Wild ! :))
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    Elements I expect to return:

    Gunbarrel
    Office scene w/obligatory Moneypenny byplay
    Q scene w/obligatory crankiness
    Mission-specific gadget
    Sacrificial lamb
    Casino/gambling scene
    Vodka martini, shaken, not stirred.
    Bond capable of driving/piloting anything
    Bond car destroyed
    Bond girl he "falls for"
    Bond captured and wreaking havoc behind enemy lines
    Megalomaniacal villain with goonish henchman
    Villain's lair
    Puns, some clever, some obvious.

    With a John Logan script, I also expect a relatively shallow story dressed up to be something more, along with lapses in logic.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    {[] sounds good to me. -{
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • AlphaOmegaSinAlphaOmegaSin EnglandPosts: 10,924MI6 Agent
    A return of the Gadget laden Car is a must -{
    1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger
  • HowardBHowardB USAPosts: 2,742MI6 Agent
    I don't need a gadget laden car or a car at all. If there is a car, I'd prefer the special equipment to be less over the top; a good tracking device and maybe some heavier weapons stashed in the boot (sniper rifle and/or assault rifle, even a small handheld rocket launcher) and if he continues to carry the PPK a heavier calibre handgun hidden in the glovebox would make sense.
  • Gala BrandGala Brand Posts: 1,172MI6 Agent
    A car that's basically a mobile communications center, that can send and receive data, hack into phone and computer communications, track bad guys, etc. would be cool and not too over-the-top.
  • LexiLexi LondonPosts: 3,000MI6 Agent
    Gassy Man wrote:
    One does not have to watch many Bond films to see the repetition of elements -- the requisite flirting with Moneypenny, the gadget that is exactly what Bond needs in a given situation, the sacrificial lamb who will motivate Bond to justice, etc. But how much of this is simply a part of the Bond formula that fans demand versus cliches some audiences have grown tired of? Is there a difference?

    Which elements do we expect to see in Bond 24?
    I appreciate the 'elements' that make up Bond, but I don't want to see them being a parody of themselves... CR and QoS were a breath of fresh air for me, as they tackled them head on... the line from the bar tender asking Bond if he wanted his martini shaken and not stirred... and Bond's reply was, for me, spot on....a nod to the line, but a different reply than we were expecting. It reminds me of when I went to see a production of 'The Importance of Being Earnest' and "A handbag" reply was not spoken at all, but said silently...as in with such horror she couldn't say it out loud... and it got a fantastic response...

    I understand the need for these ingredients, like a good martini, you most definitely need a martini glass, BUT I can't help but enjoy the 'mixing it up' a bit....and trying new variations. Just like the Vesper... it doesn't always have to be a vodka martini... -{
    She's worth whatever chaos she brings to the table and you know it. ~ Mark Anthony
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    Lexi wrote:
    Gassy Man wrote:
    One does not have to watch many Bond films to see the repetition of elements -- the requisite flirting with Moneypenny, the gadget that is exactly what Bond needs in a given situation, the sacrificial lamb who will motivate Bond to justice, etc. But how much of this is simply a part of the Bond formula that fans demand versus cliches some audiences have grown tired of? Is there a difference?

    Which elements do we expect to see in Bond 24?
    I appreciate the 'elements' that make up Bond, but I don't want to see them being a parody of themselves... CR and QoS were a breath of fresh air for me, as they tackled them head on... the line from the bar tender asking Bond if he wanted his martini shaken and not stirred... and Bond's reply was, for me, spot on....a nod to the line, but a different reply than we were expecting. It reminds me of when I went to see a production of 'The Importance of Being Earnest' and "A handbag" reply was not spoken at all, but said silently...as in with such horror she couldn't say it out loud... and it got a fantastic response...

    I understand the need for these ingredients, like a good martini, you most definitely need a martini glass, BUT I can't help but enjoy the 'mixing it up' a bit....and trying new variations. Just like the Vesper... it doesn't always have to be a vodka martini... -{
    I'm in this camp. For a long time, the elements were so formulaic that the characters just seemed to be going through the motions.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I do agree, I wouldn't want the films to become a " paint by numbers " series.
    Although I'm sure they can keep many old favourites as organic parts of any
    story.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    Agreet, TP!

    I would like to see Bond in naval uniform again and some sorts of maritime elements connected to the film -- frogmen, warships, underwater lairs would all be very welcome. It would be great, too, if he were up against a sizable enemy rather than just a few dozen at most -- an actual battle involving Bond and military forces storming an island stronghold would be nice. Add a ski sequence to that, and I would be reasonably please, except for John Logan writing the script.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    "Me too ! " to quote Bond himself :))
    I'd love to see Bond back leading a small SAS unit attacking some
    Villains lair. -{ or as I once suggest when the Somali pirates were
    In the news. An attack led by Bond on a big ship with Bond and
    SBS guys in a few dirigibles. :D
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    Gassy Man wrote:
    Agreet, TP!

    I would like to see Bond in naval uniform again and some sorts of maritime elements connected to the film -- frogmen, warships, underwater lairs would all be very welcome. It would be great, too, if he were up against a sizable enemy rather than just a few dozen at most -- an actual battle involving Bond and military forces storming an island stronghold would be nice. Add a ski sequence to that, and I would be reasonably please, except for John Logan writing the script.

    I like that! -{
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • AlphaOmegaSinAlphaOmegaSin EnglandPosts: 10,924MI6 Agent
    Yes, Bond's Naval Background has been largely ignored since the Moore Run.
    1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    " Ark Royal. Wasn't it ? " :D
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • AlphaOmegaSinAlphaOmegaSin EnglandPosts: 10,924MI6 Agent
    :)) :))
    1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I've got a feeling we'll never see Craig's Bond in uniform. :D
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • AlphaOmegaSinAlphaOmegaSin EnglandPosts: 10,924MI6 Agent
    Are you desperate to see it TP? :))
    1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    No, :D I just have a feeling the " Military/ Naval " part of Bond is not being
    Emphasised in the Craig era. He's more fighting hidden corruption as in
    Quantum. This probably doesn't make sense to anyone - but me ! :))
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    The thing is, he's been referred to as Commander Bond onscreen -- there were already naval references in Skyfall, too, with both the museum and M scene at the end.
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