451

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

zaphod99 wrote:
VesperMelograno wrote:
Blackleiter wrote:

Although I generally like GE, I agree that Brosnan's performance was a bit bland. Although he was better in TND, I don't think he really hit his stride as Bond until TWINE which I regard his finest performance. But that's okay because I think all of the Bond actors took a couple of films to be completely comfortable in the role (too bad Lazenby didn't get that opportunity).

I do not think he was bland. He just played Bond very, very cool. It worked well in contrast with Natalya.

I agree with BL. Brozzer was fine, just a bit of a composite Bond, 30% Moore, 20 % Connery,  20% Dalton 30% his own man (we can argue/debate the %) A lot was riding on his narrow shoulders he literally grew into the role IMHO

I don't think Brosnan is given enough credit for excelling at one thing as Bond better then the others, and that's being suave. The guy just owned that aspect of the character. If Moore was the "funny Bond" and Craig the "tough Bond" then I think Brosnan is the "suave Bond".

452

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

walther p99 wrote:
zaphod99 wrote:
VesperMelograno wrote:

I do not think he was bland. He just played Bond very, very cool. It worked well in contrast with Natalya.

I agree with BL. Brozzer was fine, just a bit of a composite Bond, 30% Moore, 20 % Connery,  20% Dalton 30% his own man (we can argue/debate the %) A lot was riding on his narrow shoulders he literally grew into the role IMHO

I don't think Brosnan is given enough credit for excelling at one thing as Bond better then the others, and that's being suave. The guy just owned that aspect of the character. If Moore was the "funny Bond" and Craig the "tough Bond" then I think Brosnan is the "suave Bond".

I think Connery was also pretty suave, but agree Brosnan had that in spades.

Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.

453

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

walther p99 wrote:
zaphod99 wrote:
VesperMelograno wrote:

I do not think he was bland. He just played Bond very, very cool. It worked well in contrast with Natalya.

I agree with BL. Brozzer was fine, just a bit of a composite Bond, 30% Moore, 20 % Connery,  20% Dalton 30% his own man (we can argue/debate the %) A lot was riding on his narrow shoulders he literally grew into the role IMHO

I don't think Brosnan is given enough credit for excelling at one thing as Bond better then the others, and that's being suave. The guy just owned that aspect of the character. If Moore was the "funny Bond" and Craig the "tough Bond" then I think Brosnan is the "suave Bond".

Your comment reminds why Connery is the definitive Bond for me - suave, tough, funny (as in witty, not goofy). Connery has it all in one very impressive package and most of the time it all works in way that hasn't been bested yet.

"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."

454

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

GoldenEye was the first Bond film i ever saw. Ironic because the N64 game which i still love was the first VG i ever played. Anyway this is still my favorite of the series for nostalgic reasons and the fact that it's just the perfect modern Bond film IMO.

Pros:
.The entire cast does a good job. Brosnan is a little weak at times but he just got better in the following films.
.C'mon that PTS is iconic.
.The GoldenEye Overture. Took me a while 2 actually realize its a version of theBond theme.
.Cool gunbarrel. Looks like it could be used today.
.Love the theme song.
.The score is underrated. It fits the film like a glove. Lol even Ladies First i think fits its scene.
.Locations, action, cinematography. All terrific.
.Xenia Onatopp.
.Natalya is one of my favorites.
.Zukovsky is awesome.
.The missile train is cool.
.The statue park scene. Its totally haunting. Eric Serra is on fire here.
.The idea of a 00 agent being the villain is cool
.Ya cant get better than the Monte Carlo section.
.I can think of more pros but i dont have enough time.

Cons:
.The deleted scenes between Bond and Wade and the arms dealer and Zukovsky should've been kept.
.Some of the back projection.
.Xenias gunshots on the frigate aren't silenced.

10/10 ajb007/martini

Last edited by Remington (18th Apr 2017 21:47)

1. GE 2. CR 3. LTK 4. TLD 5. TB 6. GF 7. FRWL 8. DN 9. OHMSS 10. QOS 11. TND 12. TSWLM 13. FYEO 14. OP 15. MR 16. TWINE 17. DAD 18. SF 19. DAF 20. AVTAK 21. LALD 22. TMWTGG 23. YOLT 24. SP

1. Connery 2. Moore 3. Dalton 4. Brosnan 5. Craig 6. Lazenby

455

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

There is a prominent amount of empowering feminine imagery in Goldeneye. Natalya beating up Boris. Natalya being the sole survivor of the Severnaya tragedy. Natalya rescuing Bond in the end. Xena using her sexual wiles to get men to do what she wants. Xena in her Christ-like death pose. The film seems to make a conscious effort to be appologetic towards women by making them more powerful than Bond. The pithy comments between Bond and Moneypenny, the way Natalya seems to tell Bond what to do throughout the film, and the exchanges between Bond and M all show how much the film is pushing feminine power. It's very much a product of the mid 90s.

The first half hour of the film is a lot of fun. From the pithy comments between Trevelyn and Bond, the DB5-F50 race, the casino scene and repartee with Xena (nice subtle homage to Dr No) are all great. It slows down a little from there but is still enjoyable and gradually ramps up to a satisfying conclusion. The Valentine-Bond scenes are fantastic.

Brosnan is having a lot of fun here. The entire cast is great and the villains are some of the best in the series. Famke Jassen's performance as femme fatale Xena is brilliant.

Eric Serra's score gives the film a very different feel and I really enjoy it. It's a shame the producers asked John Altman to rescore the tank chase because it disconnects it from the rest of the film.

1. CR 2 OHMSS 3. TSWLM 4. TLD 5. SF 6. GF
7. GE 8. FRwL 9. FYEO 10. LtK 11. DN 12. TMwtGG
13. AVtaK14. TB 15. OP 16. SP 17. TWiNE 18. TND
19. MR 20. LaLD 21. QoS 22. YOLT 23. DAD 24. DAF

456

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

For me the only major downer is the overly long and dull Severnaya section. It really drags. The score is lacklustre and unengaging. I get what they were going for, but for me it missed. Brozzer looked like a callow youth and far to sleight  (corrected by TND) I like a lot of the script, Onnatop is fantastic, and the dust -up at the end is amongst the very best. I think Brozzer did a good job in his inaugural outing although I still wish the film had been Dalton's third. It's top 5 for me.

Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.

457

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

GoldenEye is the perfect James Bond film.

458

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

I love the score of GoldenEye, while there is one or the other instance where Serra went a bit overboard with the "sounds" overall that score is as iconic as the film.

The GoldenEye Overture, forgive me to say this, is at least in the Top 5 of best score tracks ever in a Bond film.

Ladies First sounds a bit like throwing empty cans downs an elevator shaft but other than that it fits the scene, it is playful and quirky.

GoldenEye made a huge impact on pop culture like no other Bond film has ever since, imho. Just look at one of the most popular console games ever. GoldenEye 64. After 20 years it's still played around the world and has avid fans that will always consider it the best game ever.

Dalton Rulez™

459

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

BondJasonBond006 wrote:

I love the score of GoldenEye, while there is one or the other instance where Serra went a bit overboard with the "sounds" overall that score is as iconic as the film.

The GoldenEye Overture, forgive me to say this, is at least in the Top 5 of best score tracks ever in a Bond film.

Ladies First sounds a bit like throwing empty cans downs an elevator shaft but other than that it fits the scene, it is playful and quirky.

GoldenEye made a huge impact on pop culture like no other Bond film has ever since, imho. Just look at one of the most popular console games ever. GoldenEye 64. After 20 years it's still played around the world and has avid fans that will always consider it the best game ever.

Totally agree. The score fits the movie like a glove.
ajb007/martini

1. GE 2. CR 3. LTK 4. TLD 5. TB 6. GF 7. FRWL 8. DN 9. OHMSS 10. QOS 11. TND 12. TSWLM 13. FYEO 14. OP 15. MR 16. TWINE 17. DAD 18. SF 19. DAF 20. AVTAK 21. LALD 22. TMWTGG 23. YOLT 24. SP

1. Connery 2. Moore 3. Dalton 4. Brosnan 5. Craig 6. Lazenby

460

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

ajb007/martini
"We share the same opinions, BJB006. Three, anyway."
Let me have a crack at GoldenEye; I should mention that the review will be up on the 0017th of July after 7/7/17's The Spy Who Loved Me, 50 Anniversary review.
Pros...
Iconic PTs.
Martin Campbell directed this movie/Beautiful cinematography.
The seemingly overrated trio of Bond villains that I enjoy.
No, no, no. No more foreplay.
Onatopp Xenia
Brosnan's Gunbarrel
The Monte Carlo scenes
Judi Dench as M
A fairly witty script.
General Ourumov/Boris Grischenko
Cons...
Not many, but I hate the outdated cut of Brosnan's suits. I do have a soft spot for his DB Blazer/Birdseye Suit.
I hate A Pleasant Drive in Saint Petersburg, glad it was replaced with the excellent John Altman music.
My least favourite Moneypenny solely for how unbalanced she is. She may be a strong woman in the beginning, but when she VRs shagging Bond, we find out that she is just playing it tuff while wanting Bond. It turns out to be the opposite of the Connery/Maxwell relationship, with Bond doing all the hard work.

"...I have the oddest feeling we will be meeting again sometime..."
-Roger Moore's James Bond. RIP.
I have a YouTube channel on all things Bond (amongst other things, coming soon™).
The name's Bond and Beyond. It's currently on hold, though.

461

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

@Dirty Punker

well that's great if we have same tastes in many things, I guess some opinions are more generally consensus than others.

GoldenEye I think, can be called one of the most popular Bond films, maybe since the 70's only TSWLM and CR and it seems SF can be called as popular.

Dalton Rulez™

462

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

BondJasonBond006 wrote:

@Dirty Punker

well that's great if we have same tastes in many things, I guess some opinions are more generally consensus than others.

That's because I haven't heard all of your opinions, as of yet at least.
To not veer the topic off-course, GoldenEye after For Your Eyes Only, Diamonds Are Forever, Die Another Day, The Spy Who Loved Me, Goldfinger and From Russia With Love is a popular Bond movie. The titles I mentioned are generally the ones people are most familiar with.

"...I have the oddest feeling we will be meeting again sometime..."
-Roger Moore's James Bond. RIP.
I have a YouTube channel on all things Bond (amongst other things, coming soon™).
The name's Bond and Beyond. It's currently on hold, though.

463

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

Saw my post above...however I did this with all the colours! Have to re-learn how to do it....
Here is my review of GoldenEye, which I watched as my first film in my new life.


-Every generation has its definite Bond film.
-My generation was lucky, it got two.

The Living Daylights and GoldenEye.

I was 13 when TLD hit the theatre and Dalton become "my Bond".
When GoldenEye graced the screens I was 21 and was not really prepared for another Bond after 6 year of nothingness.
As I knew the suave Brosnan from Remington Steele I was looking forward to seeing Pierce as Bond despite the fact I wanted Dalton back.

-GoldenEye defined my 20s.

From the first moment when the airplane is flying over the famous dam in Switzerland I knew this would be a great experience. The stunt left me as breathless as seeing the three 00 agents jump from the military plane in the PTS of TLD.
Coming out of the cinema I and my army buddies were celebrating life and everything it can offer. We talked about the film for days, weeks, months. And went to see it again and again.
-GoldenEye turned my generation into James Bond die hard fans and Pierce Brosnan became the symbol of how we wanted to be. Suave, good-looking, charming, womanizing, witty, cool, hard hitting, gun-toting awesome agents or soldiers in our case. At least we got to live some of the things Bond did on screen.

GoldenEye was everywhere and so was Pierce Brosnan. With one film Pierce became a living legend and GoldenEye influenced pop culture in unseen formats.
From the usual like magazines, news-stories and posters and toys there was suddenly the world of gaming that got revolutionised by what must be the most famous, legendary game ever. GoldenEye 64.
The score has a huge part in all of this. At the time it sounded like what a modern Bond sound was imagined to sound like. The film delivered and so did the game.
We all spent an unimaginable amount of hours with the game and lived through the film therefore again and again.

-A little over 20 years later, what's left of the legendary GoldenEye?
The film that defined how my generation looked at action-thrillers, how we wanted video-games to be (GoldenEye64) and how we wanted Bond to sound (Tina Turner, GoldenEye Overture).

My answer is a resounding GOLDENEYE IS AN ETERNAL CLASSIC

Everything falls into place flawlessly with the film. Even the very first moment, the gun-barrel shows that this marks a new beginning.
The PTS is Bond perfection. Nothing less. The coolest ever introduction to a Bond in the most cool of surroundings. Switzerland, once more, provides the perfect location and Serra's GoldenEye Overture is the sound of modern Bond.
The stunt of all stunts bar skiing off the cliff in TSWLM's PTS. In a cinematic sense.

The titles from newbie Daniel Kleinman also mark a new beginning. Combined with Tina Turner's fantastic GoldenEye this title sequence remains one of the most memorable and very best.

The DB5 is back and it looks good on Brosnan, very. Xenia Onatopp, the wonderful Famke Janssen, is introduced in the most fun way and the casino scene that follows it is the next best thing to the casino scene in DN.
At this point latest it becomes clear, GoldenEye's intention is to belong to the best of the best, rivalling the iconic ones like GF and TSWLM. And so far nothing suggests it wouldn't be.

What is evident by the end of the Severnaya sequence, is the quality of the cast. I've never had a problem with the cast in the Dalton films, but GoldenEye truly surpasses anything in the cast department at least since a couple of decades.

Alec Trevelyan. A legend. And please forgive me if I use that word a bit inflationary.
The same goes for Xenia and the new M.
Natalya is the kind of Bond girl that we want to see in the mid 90s and she'd even work today.
But even the supporting characters like Mishkin, Ourumov, Boris and Jack Wade are cast perfectly and they work so well and do what they are supposed to do.
My favourite though may be Valentin Zukovsky.
Samantha Bond as Moneypenny feels so right. She's perfect for Brosnan.

-Judi Dench certainly was someone to get used to.

Dench is so different to her predecessors. For starters the dynamic between Bond and M is strongly affected by the fact M is now a woman. Immune to Bond's charm and she makes that clear pretty strongly.
The reason this M works so well, is Dench's acting ability and her chemistry with Brosnan.
Another perfect match.
And it seems Brosnan is a perfect match for really anyone. He's got tons of charisma and it seems he can work with anyone and make anything work on screen.

The Severnaya destruction is a work of art. While CGI already was available in 1995, EON decided still to use model work for the most important scenes that needed special effects.
The satellite dish destruction and the jet fighters destruction are done beautifully and while you can probably tell it's model work it still looks real and it looks REAL GOOD.

The middle section in St. Petersburg is another reason GE has become such a joy to watch.
It evokes the times of the cold war that were not that far behind in 1995 and still you'll get that feeling of the new Russia that has been born a few years back.
Ourumov and Mishkin represent the old and new ways and it's written so well.
The script is fantastic anyway. Bond has so much meaningful dialogue interaction with Alec, M and Natalya. But it's so subtle you don't ever get the feeling that it's contrived. Which is also due to the fine acting jobs everyone is doing.

The dialogue in general is memorable and some characters get all perfect lines. Xenia, Alec, M, Valentin, Ourumov. And Brosnan delivers every reply, every witticism with such panache you want to stand up and clap.
GoldenEye puts a smile on my face from start to finish.

-A drive in the country Russian style.

EON must have thought, how can we possibly go the extra mile to deliver yet another unique and defining action sequence the cinematic world has never seen before.
There is no chance for subtlety left once the tank crashes through the wall to the street and chases Ourumov and Natalya in a car. It's maybe the most memorable of all memorable moments in GoldenEye. That crashing through the wall. In your face!
And we know what to expect from that moment on and the next 10 minutes or so deliver. And how they deliver.
In the midst of all the mayhem the ever cool and suave Brosnan. Truly, nobody could have done it better.
But it's not enough, now Bond actually intends to crash the tank frontally into an incoming train.

-Bond. Only Bond.
-He's going to derail us.

Even Bean and Janssen are in awe of such audacity! And it feels like they deliver their lines as the actual actors and the characters they play.
Bond. Only Bond. Indeed!

Once we are at the satellite dish and the main lair of Alec it's already clear, this film is worth Gold.
But unlike so many other Bond films, GoldenEye doesn't falter in its last act.
Au contraire!

The set is believable, huge and so very impressive. It's not there for the sake of it but it has a real function for all the scenes that are played in it.
Alec, Boris, Natalya and Bond have a foursome of wonderful, part hilarious repartee. And everything is acted so believably by Sean Bean, Pierce Brosnan, Scorupco and even Cumming who's Boris is obnoxious but in the end Boris serves a purpose and he excels at it.

We've already got a taste of how relentless and brutal Brosnan Bond can be at the sauna scene but his long fight with Alec on the satellite dish is so realistic and bloody and well edited that it's clearly the best sort of thing we got since the Connery era.
The use of the surroundings and the choreography of the many punches and fights is such great cinematic achievement.
Even the last lines of Alec and Bond are for the ages. Everything comes full circle from their first scene in the PTS to Alec's brutal shocking ending.

Martin Campbell truly was the perfect choice for GoldenEye and I guess in the end EON was lucky on some things. Perfect casting decisions, perfect new crew members like Daniel Kleinman or Martin Campbell.
GoldenEye is the film where all the parts worked and the sum of all the parts is a pop-culture influencing film that has long become one of the defining films of the last decades.

It's quite difficult to put this film in a ranking if I tried to be as objective as I can.

-It's my personal No 1 film for all time.

The only other film that is more or less on the same level for me is Star Trek: First Contact (1996) and Batman (1989). And of course The Living Daylights.

I guess in the end GoldenEye does belong into a top five or maybe even top three of Bond films, objectively speaking.
Nothing outside the 60s does qualify though, to be at GoldenEye's side in a top five except TSWLM.

Dalton Rulez™

464

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

Very nice! I actually watched Goldeneye last night after a hiatus of a few years. The reason: I have watched this movie so many times when I was young! I still think this is the best Brosnan movie and it remains a real tragedy that poor Brosnan never had material of this level to work with in future Bond movies, because I think he is fantastic as Bond.

Pro:

- Onatopp is the greatest female henchwoman since Fiona Volpe
- The Tank scene
- The Goldeneye tune of Tina Turner is classic Bond
- The PTS is great, despite that it made little sense to first have a bunchy jump and then afterwards a plane dropping from a mountain.
- Brosnan as mentioned IS Bond. He has the looks, charisma, was good in the fight scenes
- Dench was a refreshing M
- Locations where beautiful: about time Bond visited Monte Carlo, which is such a Bond location (I know, NSNA he was there too)
-  Interesting idea to have another 00 go rogue
- The return of the DB5. This might be the most screening time of the DB5 in Bond history. great scene!
- Zukovsky was a great character

Cons

- The BMW was underused
- The score of Eric Serra was not Bondian
- Sean Bean feels a little underused
- Natalya was a competent Bond girl, but never felt glamorous, also because of course in the situation she was in I suppose.
- Wade. I don't like this guy at all. Feels like a moronic Felix Leiter. 

All in all, a classic Bond movie, maybe the last of the true Bond classics that felt like the old Connery movies. It had all the Bond ingredients and it worked.

OHMSS, FRWL, DN, GF, CR, GE, SP, YOLT, TB, TSWLM, LALD, TLD, TND, FYEO, SF, MR, TMWTGG, TWINE, OP, AVTAK, DAF, LTK, QOS, DAD

1. Connery 2. Craig 3. Brosnan 4. Dalton 5. Lazenby 6. Moore

465

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

I also watched Goldeneye last night.  ajb007/martini

PROS:

-Great cast of heroes and villains. Possibly the best in the series.

-Beautifully grim locations and atmosphere.

-Classic Q sequence.

-Superb collection of vehicles. Abandoned missile trains, MiG 29's,  T-55 tanks, Tiger helicopter etc...it's like they took the cool Cold War stuff from Octopussy and expanded upon it to great effect. Even Ourumov feels like an extension of Orlov.

-Spirited friendly car chase with the DB5

-The tank chase is flat out awesome. The showdown in the (Octopussy) tunnel is icing on the cake. "He's going to derail us" 

CONS:


- Beg your pardon. Forgot to knock.  Ahhh this is a painfully bad intro for Pierce.

- Free falling after the plane. Embarrassing.

- Nine Years Later.  Argghhhh why??

- Sexual harassment speech. Give me a break!!

- Misogynist dinosaur speech.  Ugh. Also, nothing Bond said in the office should have triggered this lecture.

- Too many shots of Natalya escaping Severnaya. The one satellite image of her walking away was enough for me. At least we didn't see her dog mushing all the way home.

- BMW barely used.

- Lot of time spent on Zukovsky for very little gain. Leads Bond straight back to Xenia who he was already investigating.

- The idea that Bond has a signature gun. Zukovsky pointing out that Bond is charming and sophisticated while all the henchmen laugh.  Bond's plan for appealing to Zukovsky's wallet materializes out of thin air.

- Jack Wade and Marines appearing at the end. They were there the entire time? Thanks for the help!

-The credits song is painfully bland.


Overall: Even though there are a lot of little things that bother me about Goldeneye, watching it last night reminded me of how much I still love the film. I definitely think TND is a more solid Bond film, but GE slightly edges it out as a personal favorite.

"Please don't try to follow me"

1. GE 2. MR 3. TSWLM 4. GF 5. DN 6. TND 7. TMWTGG 8. OP 9. TWINE 10. AVTAK

466

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

Firemass wrote:

- Nine Years Later.  Argghhhh why??

you know there have been theories speculated here about this. A bit meta, very similar to why does Connery begin his search for Blofeld in Japan at the start of DaF.
But within the narrative, I guess Alec needs a chunk of time to put together his evil scheme.

467

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

caractacus potts wrote:
Firemass wrote:

- Nine Years Later.  Argghhhh why??

you know there have been theories speculated here about this. A bit meta, very similar to why does Connery begin his search for Blofeld in Japan at the start of DaF.
But within the narrative, I guess Alec needs a chunk of time to put together his evil scheme.

Within the narrative it could have been 9 months or 9 weeks as far as I'm concerned. In other words it doesn't even matter. The only thing that happened of note was Ourumov got a promotion.

It's insulting to think that NINE YEARS of Bond's life could simply pass without anything of interest happening. Heck in that amount of time they could have cranked out 4-5 more Bond films. ajb007/smile

"Please don't try to follow me"

1. GE 2. MR 3. TSWLM 4. GF 5. DN 6. TND 7. TMWTGG 8. OP 9. TWINE 10. AVTAK

468

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

You don't just go from being a double oh agent to a megalomaniac with a space laser overnight, there's a few steps that need to be got through. I think that's realistic. Remember the critique that Gustav Graves could not possibly have established his identity, amassed his fortune, and built his space laser in 14 months. Its nice they acknowledge a supervillains career arc actually takes time.


You are right its insulting to suggest nine years could have passed with no adventures of note happening. That's what I was getting at: nine years places the dam incident precisely between Moore's last and Dalton's first, implying Brosnan took over directly from the popular Moore, and the unpopular Dalton never happened. It is insulting to Dalton.

But we know those two adventures did happen. Probably other unseen adventures as well. I like to imagine at least two more (with Dalton) that we just never saw because of stoopid legal/financial stuff to do with the filmmakers, not Bond. There are as yet untold adventures between 1989 and 1995 waiting to be declassified!


The conceit of starting a story with a scene from the past has been used in many other adventure series. For e.g., there's a couple of Modesty Blaise novels that begin with a chapter set during her teenage days as a precocious crimeboss, then pick up years later in the present when a character from those early days returns. A good narrative device that allows us to catch a glimpse of those early days. They should do that more with Bond, except it would be hard to believe middleaged Craig, for example, was ever young (maybe CGI to dewrinkle him?). It was easier with Brosnan because that was his first film.

469

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

As for the 9 years later tagline, maybe that was throwing shade at the Gardner novels for not being notable enough ajb007/biggrin.

"...I have the oddest feeling we will be meeting again sometime..."
-Roger Moore's James Bond. RIP.
I have a YouTube channel on all things Bond (amongst other things, coming soon™).
The name's Bond and Beyond. It's currently on hold, though.

470

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

caractacus potts wrote:

You don't just go from being a double oh agent to a megalomaniac with a space laser overnight, there's a few steps that need to be got through. I think that's realistic. Remember the critique that Gustav Graves could not possibly have established his identity, amassed his fortune, and built his space laser in 14 months. Its nice they acknowledge a supervillains career arc actually takes time.


You are right its insulting to suggest nine years could have passed with no adventures of note happening. That's what I was getting at: nine years places the dam incident precisely between Moore's last and Dalton's first, implying Brosnan took over directly from the popular Moore, and the unpopular Dalton never happened. It is insulting to Dalton.

But we know those two adventures did happen. Probably other unseen adventures as well. I like to imagine at least two more (with Dalton) that we just never saw because of stoopid legal/financial stuff to do with the filmmakers, not Bond. There are as yet untold adventures between 1989 and 1995 waiting to be declassified!


The conceit of starting a story with a scene from the past has been used in many other adventure series. For e.g., there's a couple of Modesty Blaise novels that begin with a chapter set during her teenage days as a precocious crimeboss, then pick up years later in the present when a character from those early days returns. A good narrative device that allows us to catch a glimpse of those early days. They should do that more with Bond, except it would be hard to believe middleaged Craig, for example, was ever young (maybe CGI to dewrinkle him?). It was easier with Brosnan because that was his first film.

I thought the nine years later tagline was more then a fair amount of time as well. Especially when we finally see just how massive that satellite was.

471

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

Firemass wrote:

It's insulting to think that NINE YEARS of Bond's life could simply pass without anything of interest happening. Heck in that amount of time they could have cranked out 4-5 more Bond films. ajb007/smile

What said that nothing happens in Bond's life between 1986 and 1995? The 1986 year acknowledges the year that Brosnan was originally hired to play Bond, but it's not saying that Dalton's Bond adventures didn't happen. It's an insult to Dalton in that it's implying that Brosnan should have been Bond then too. But it's not cancelling out those stories. It's often assumed that Bond is doing other things between his films; for instance at the start of Moonraker we see him at the end of another mission.

472

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

caractacus potts wrote:

You don't just go from being a double oh agent to a megalomaniac with a space laser overnight, there's a few steps that need to be got through. I think that's realistic. Remember the critique that Gustav Graves could not possibly have established his identity, amassed his fortune, and built his space laser in 14 months. Its nice they acknowledge a supervillains career arc actually takes time.

You also don't drop off the face of the earth without already having a solid plan and a lot of work towards that plan already in place. Graves already had to have had much of that in place already. Graves' likely already had a fortune stashed away before he was Graves.

473

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

caractacus potts wrote:

That's what I was getting at: nine years places the dam incident precisely between Moore's last and Dalton's first, implying Brosnan took over directly from the popular Moore, and the unpopular Dalton never happened. It is insulting to Dalton.

Or could it imply that TLD and LTK happened during those nine years?

"Please don't try to follow me"

1. GE 2. MR 3. TSWLM 4. GF 5. DN 6. TND 7. TMWTGG 8. OP 9. TWINE 10. AVTAK

474

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

I'm just overanalyzing, cuz I like to do that. Actually I was repeating a theory someone else came up with that I thought worthy of renewed discussion at this point.
You're the one who said:

...NINE YEARS of Bond's life could simply pass without anything of interest happening

475

Re: Pros and Cons: Goldeneye

Firemass wrote:
caractacus potts wrote:

That's what I was getting at: nine years places the dam incident precisely between Moore's last and Dalton's first, implying Brosnan took over directly from the popular Moore, and the unpopular Dalton never happened. It is insulting to Dalton.

Or could it imply that TLD and LTK happened during those nine years?

Exactly. I don't think the films imply at any stage in the series that things don't happen between them.

1. TWINE  2. FYEO  3. MR  4. TLD  5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS  7. DN  8. OP  9. AVTAK  10. TMWTGG  11. QoS 12. GE  13. CR  14. TB  15. FRWL  16. LTK  17. GF  18. SF  19. LaLD  20. YOLT  21. TND  22. DAD  23. DAF.

"If you'll forgive me, that's a little too scented for my palate."