26

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

HatThrowingHenchman wrote:

another Pro:
the line: "She's waiting for you"

That's a cold Bond line if ever there was one.
Another pro: Bond dumping the body in a dumpster (Brosnan did it before Craig).

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

27

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

I think Twine is the best example of Brosnan having a darker side. This dark side doesn't have to mean that  Bond is cold with no emotions, but there are some scenes that illustrate perfectly the "selfishness" of Brosnan's Bond:
- Bond killing Davidov after briefly smiling at him
- Bond framing Lachaise's henchman of 3xmurder and using him for a cool getaway
- Bond's line mentioned in post 26
- Bond killing Elektra

Plus one more thing: the scene where Bond frees himself of Elektra's chair shows that Brosnan still brought some emotions to the role as he gives a brif glimpse of grief towards Zukovsky and then goes after her.Take that, all of you who say Brosnan was merely a model to fill in the blank.  ajb007/tongue

and now maybe a bit off topic but I would be very inerested in other's opinions:
I always thought that the killing of Elektra was a bit unnescessary, since she couln't have gotten away (with M guarding her).
I know it makes the film more dramatical and "someone usually dies" but as evil as she was, I still think it's a pitty.
Any thoughts?

"You see Mr.Bond, you can't kill my dreams...but my dreams can kill you.Time to face destiny" - "Time to face gravity"

28

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

Loved TWINE. Would actually be my favourite Brosnan entry except I can't stand Christmas Jones. The character adds nothing and the acting is wooden.

Loved the pre titles sequence.

29

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

Don't understand why Christmas Jones is so unpopular?
what't with T.Case and Severine for instance?

"You see Mr.Bond, you can't kill my dreams...but my dreams can kill you.Time to face destiny" - "Time to face gravity"

30

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

I don't mind Denise Richards in the least. ajb007/smile

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

31

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

HatThrowingHenchman wrote:

Don't understand why Christmas Jones is so unpopular?
what't with T.Case and Severine for instance?

Dr. Jones is unpopular because she's just not believable. She just doesn't seem mature enough to be taken seriously as a nuclear physicist. Compare he to Dr. Goodhead, who is far more believable in a similar position.

32

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

I'm thinking of both of them, in many
positions,  Right now !  ajb007/lol

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

33

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

maybe but believeability is telative for the franchise...

"You see Mr.Bond, you can't kill my dreams...but my dreams can kill you.Time to face destiny" - "Time to face gravity"

34

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

HatThrowingHenchman wrote:

maybe but believeability is telative for the franchise...

I believe in Christmas.

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

35

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

I believe in Pussy (Galore) ajb007/lol

"You see Mr.Bond, you can't kill my dreams...but my dreams can kill you.Time to face destiny" - "Time to face gravity"

36

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

I believe in a reasonable rate of return.  ajb007/wink

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

37

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

Matt S wrote:
HatThrowingHenchman wrote:

Don't understand why Christmas Jones is so unpopular?
what't with T.Case and Severine for instance?

Dr. Jones is unpopular because she's just not believable. She just doesn't seem mature enough to be taken seriously as a nuclear physicist. Compare he to Dr. Goodhead, who is far more believable in a similar position.

Got it in one. The casting was up in the air...

1. For Your Eyes Only      2. The Living Daylights    3 From Russia with Love  4. Casino Royale  5. OHMSS  6. Skyfall

38

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

Strangeways wrote:

Loved TWINE. Would actually be my favourite Brosnan entry except I can't stand Christmas Jones. The character adds nothing and the acting is wooden.

Loved the pre titles sequence.

I agree...sort of...as it's still my fav Brosnan Bond despite her...

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

39

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

Sir Miles wrote:
Strangeways wrote:

Loved TWINE. Would actually be my favourite Brosnan entry except I can't stand Christmas Jones. The character adds nothing and the acting is wooden.

Loved the pre titles sequence.

I agree...sort of...as it's still my fav Brosnan Bond despite her...

I'm the same. It's because Brosnan is the most comfortable in the role in this film. I don't really care for any of the Brosnan Bond girls. But while I don't find myself attracted to Elektra at all, I do like her as a character.

40

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

In the end I feel that for me, the pros SO outweigh the cons that I must say that on most viewings I have a great old time. And a note here: some folks have commented on the drab look of the film & I concur but, the Blu Ray makes if look sparkling next to the muddy DVD!

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

41

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

Matt S wrote:
Sir Miles wrote:
Strangeways wrote:

Loved TWINE. Would actually be my favourite Brosnan entry except I can't stand Christmas Jones. The character adds nothing and the acting is wooden.

Loved the pre titles sequence.

I agree...sort of...as it's still my fav Brosnan Bond despite her...

I'm the same. It's because Brosnan is the most comfortable in the role in this film. I don't really care for any of the Brosnan Bond girls. But while I don't find myself attracted to Elektra at all, I do like her as a character.

All true...I think Brosnan 'hits his marks' in this one...and the same for me with Elektra...she's attractive though, just not for me...

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

42

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

PROS:
Brosnan's best performance as 007.
Maria Grazia Cucinotta and Sophie Marceau.
Final Q scene is handled well.
Boat chase is fun.

CONS:
Wretched plot development and exposition.
Very vague and confusing story in first half.
Bland direction.
Most action sequences range from mediocre to poor, ski chase is especially disappointing.
Very dull cinematography and locations.
Robert Carlyle a totally ineffective villain.
Stunt-casting of John Cleese.
Submarine climax is a real damp squib.
Casting of Denise Richards deflects attention from the real problems of the film.

43

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

Pros:

- Fantastic PTS with the Swiss banker and with the Q Boat. The Q Boat sequence showed that nobody could do action better than Bond
-  A welcome return for Michael Kitchen's Tanner
- M and Bond's relationship. She trusts and respects Bond, but still asserts herself as Bond's boss
- Elektra is a strong female character and is very unique for the Bond series
- Great to see a ski scene again, and it's very well done
- Valentin's return is also welcome
- Bond's line "I don't know any doctor jokes."
- The helicopter saws are really, really cool!
- Renard has a fantastic death
- Best title song of Brosnan's films (Not counting the original Tomorrow Never Dies theme "Surrender")
- Bondian score by David Arnold that makes a great use of the Bond theme, the title theme and "I've Only Myself to Blame".
- Bond theme at the end is brilliant. I don't know if "I've Only Myself to Blame" was intended to be used there, but as much as I love that song it wouldn't fit.
- Great final performance for Desmond Llewelyn
- Michael Apted is great at getting a more human performance out of Brosnan.
- Brosnan seems most comfortable as Bond in this film
- Brosnan looks his best in this film, hair, body and clothes
- Thames and snowy mountains are great locations
- The Maiden's Tower is a great set
- Good plot with more depth than the films that came before and after
- The movie holds up really well today, the best of all of Brosnan's Bond films. It doesn't look dated at all, and it feels like it could have been an action movie made today.

Cons:

- Though Brosnan gave his best performance as Bond in this film, he's still wooden.
- Robinson is great, but his competes with Tanner.
- John Cleese, no matter how great he is, brings an unnecessary stupidity to the films.
- Why is Q showing Bond gadgets if he's off active duty due to his injury?
- Moneypenny is really annoying. I don't like that she seems to really dislike Bond.
- Renard doesn't need to have a bullet in his head. It's just ridiculous.
- Renard is too thug-like and isn't believable as someone who can command power. As thegreatgalling said above, he lacks gravitas. I don't have a problem with the character but with the performance and casting. The character doesn't command the respect he's given.
- The tone of the movie takes a dive as soon as we Denise Richards appears. She is far too immature and has some terrible lines. She's the biggest problem with the film. She should be Bond's equal, like Dr. Goodhead. She may be smart, but she acts like a teenager.
- Weak locations other than the two mentioned above
- The BMW Z8 is beautiful, but it should have been a DB7
- The action scenes with a lot of shooting feel like video games
- Bond and Dr. Jones getting together at the end is equivalent to Bond and Tracy in AVTAK. The age difference isn't so much the problem as the maturity difference. It's like Bond is sleeping with a teenager. Even if it was 32-year-old Sean Connery from Dr. No, 28-year-old Dr. Jones would seem too young.

Overall, I really, really loved the movie until Denise Richards appears. And watching it again after a long time it's still my favourite Brosnan Bond.

44

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

^ find myself agreeing with many of your points, including how the film does not look dated.

Pros:

- PTS
- Title song
- IMO the best GB and title credits of all the Bond films
- PB looks great, his suits
- Scottish location
- Denise Richards is absolutely stunning, dumb, unconvincing yes, but so, so, so hot  ajb007/heart
- Caviar Factory, pipeline and underground action sequences
- Storyline is the most psychological and complex of all Bond films
- Z8 is beautiful, missile gadget rocks
- Romance between Elektra and James - chemistry between the two actors. "Elektra look at me!" is a really believable scene between the two, her playing him or not, she really does seem scared.
- M/Bond relationship - acting between the two
- Q's fateful sign-off
- Submarine scenes are suspenseful and well done - and one (or two) particular Denise Richards features shine  ajb007/embarrassed
- Renard's death "She's waiting for you"
- Pierce's performance
- The torture scene and Valentine S saving Bond's life
- Bond killing Elektra, bit of a big deal!  ajb007/amazed  "I never miss" - Moore could've said that too
- Like GE, there are some really good lines in this film
- Some amazing work from David Arnold is peppered throughout the film. Particularly Show Me The Money, Come In 007..., Access Denied, Elektra's Theme and Christmas In Turkey
- Walther P99 finally being Bond's gun
- Bond's flirting with Xmas Jones and the final scene in Turkey
- Y2K joke actually works lol
- FYEO connection "Greek woman like Elektra always avenge their loved ones"
- "Foolish sentiment" "Family motto."

Cons:

- While good in the sub scenes, Renard seems a bit of an afterthought by the writers. I wish they used Robert C a bit better
- The plot set-up is slightly confusing, not well executed
- The blowing up of the pipeline is a 3 part explosion from a single bomb ajb007/confused
- The Brosnan dummy when the car is being chopped in half  ajb007/crap
- David Arnold is not doing complete scores yet, although this is a major improvement on his messy TND score
- Casino scenes are a bit flat
- The ski-chase isn't 100% there - it doesn't build enough suspense.

Observations:

Unlike TND and DAD, this is similar to GE in the fact that it is a Bond film - not an action film with Bond elements. Also, it's muddy and locations are muted because IMO this dirtiness reflects the narrative.

Conclusion:

TWINE is my favourite because of its psychological elements. Pierce convinces the viewer that Bond is being affected by his loyalty to M, falling in love with Elektra and then realising the deception and who she really is and then figuring out how to play it back to win. It results in some pretty powerful scenes that if played poorly, would greatly affect how this film comes together. Pierce is entirely convincing.

To me, it's the deepest Bond film in terms of pace, plot, acting and texture.

Bravo.

1. TWINE  2. FYEO  3. MR  4. TLD  5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS  7. DN  8. OP  9. AVTAK  10. TMWTGG  11. QoS 12. GE  13. CR  14. TB  15. FRWL  16. LTK  17. GF  18. SF  19. LaLD  20. YOLT  21. TND  22. DAD  23. DAF.

"If you'll forgive me, that's a little too scented for my palate."

45

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

Pros:

-Great action scenes.
-Interesting plot.
-The story demands the viewer's undivided attention, as it unfolds step-by-step.
-Robert Carlyle does a good job as Renard.
-The return of Robbie Coltrane.
-While Denise Richards isn't a great actress, she manages to look both tough and attractive as a Bond girl.
-Q's last scene in the series, especially when seen in light of his death, has great impact.
-Brosnan gives a great performance as 007, and looks assured in the role.

Cons:

-Sophie Marceau's French accent.  Electra King isn't a French name, or is it?  And overall, she doesn't impress much as a villainess.
-Who killed the MI6 agent Bond mentioned in the PTS?  I didn't quite catch that one.

Overall, I quite like TWINE, and give it a 9/10.

"Hostile takeovers.  Shall we?"
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD  2. TND  3. GF  4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later

46

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

Matt S wrote:
HatThrowingHenchman wrote:

Don't understand why Christmas Jones is so unpopular?
what't with T.Case and Severine for instance?

Dr. Jones is unpopular because she's just not believable. She just doesn't seem mature enough to be taken seriously as a nuclear physicist.

I think she would be more believable if she didn't spend most of the movie dressed like Lara Croft, and the rest of it in a cocktail dress.  Oh, and her obvious breast implants certainly don't help.

Nevertheless, I do like to have eye-candy in my Bond movies, and in that capacity she more than suffices.

1.TSWLM 2.LTK 3.YOLT 4.OHMSS 5.TWINE 6.LALD 7.MR 8.GE 9.DN 10.FRWL
Bond: Pierce Brosnan  Villain: Hugo Drax  Girl: Pam Bouvier

47

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

Surprised some people are praising the action sequences - they're mediocre at best and diabolical at worst. The ski chase is pitiful.

48

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

To each their own, bt.

I'm a big Brosnan fan, so that's something that helps this film for me.

I find all his first 3 movies to be fun action romps.

"Hostile takeovers.  Shall we?"
New 2020 ranking (for now DAF and FYEO keep their previous placements)
1. TLD  2. TND  3. GF  4. TSWLM 5. TWINE 6. OHMSS 7. LtK 8. TMWTGG 9. L&LD 10. YOLT 11. DAD 12. QoS 13. DN 14. GE 15. SF 16. OP 17. MR 18. AVTAK 19. TB 20. FRWL 21. CR 22. FYEO 23. DAF (SP to be included later)
Bond actors to be re-ranked later

49

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

blame_thatcher wrote:

Surprised some people are praising the action sequences - they're mediocre at best and diabolical at worst. The ski chase is pitiful.

Point the camera at Pierce and let off the explosives when he passes...

1. For Your Eyes Only      2. The Living Daylights    3 From Russia with Love  4. Casino Royale  5. OHMSS  6. Skyfall

50

Re: Pros and Cons: The World Is Not Enough

broadshoulder wrote:

Point the camera at Pierce and let off the explosives when he passes...

Works for me. ajb007/martini

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT