301

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

I may represent a minority here, but I do like Jinx. Certainly not a perfect character, but better than many others, and all Bond girsl without exception that came after her.

302

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

chrisisall wrote:

Jinx worst Bond girl? Basically.... ajb007/martini

Nope! That would be Stacy Sutton.

"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."

303

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

I am still undecided what is worse in DAD: The dialogue/script or the special effects. Both are by far the worst of the series.

OHMSS, FRWL, DN, GF, CR, GE, SP, YOLT, TB, TSWLM, LALD, TLD, TND, FYEO, SF, MR, TMWTGG, TWINE, OP, AVTAK, DAF, LTK, QOS, DAD

1. Connery 2. Craig 3. Brosnan 4. Dalton 5. Lazenby 6. Moore

304

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Blackleiter wrote:
chrisisall wrote:

Jinx worst Bond girl? Basically.... ajb007/martini

Nope! That would be Stacy Sutton.

Hey! Stacy is fine  ajb007/smile

The only issue with Stacy is her scream - "James!" - the rest of her is perfectly fine and her geologist story-line is more believable than Christmas Jones'.

I also think that despite the age difference that her and Roger have a good chemistry. I like the way she delivers her "I have" line and rips up the cheque.

1. TWINE  2. FYEO  3. MR  4. TLD  5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS  7. DN  8. OP  9. AVTAK  10. TMWTGG  11. QoS 12. GE  13. CR  14. TB  15. FRWL  16. LTK  17. GF  18. SF  19. LaLD  20. YOLT  21. TND  22. DAD  23. DAF.

"If you'll forgive me, that's a little too scented for my palate."

305

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

heartbroken_mr_drax wrote:
Blackleiter wrote:
chrisisall wrote:

Jinx worst Bond girl? Basically.... ajb007/martini

Nope! That would be Stacy Sutton.

Hey! Stacy is fine  ajb007/smile

The only issue with Stacy is her scream - "James!" - the rest of her is perfectly fine and her geologist story-line is more believable than Christmas Jones'.

I also think that despite the age difference that her and Roger have a good chemistry. I like the way she delivers her "I have" line and rips up the cheque.

That scream brings her down to being one of the worst Bond girls. I still place her above Jinx, though Jinx easily has the better wardrobe.

306

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Matt S wrote:

That scream brings her down to being one of the worst Bond girls. I still place her above Jinx, though Jinx easily has the better wardrobe.

Despite the potential to be horribly dated (in some of the promo shots her hair is very 80s) her style in the film still looks very good. My fiance who's a textile fashion designer sees Stacy's wardrobe to be very current and quite amazing.

In particular her outfit when she arrives at Chantilly, her dress at the party and her striped top she's wearing when she gets fired.

Early 2000s fashion that Jinx mainly wears has dated poorly and is renowned for being a tacky period generally.

(I'm aware of your knowledge in this field too  ajb007/bond )

1. TWINE  2. FYEO  3. MR  4. TLD  5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS  7. DN  8. OP  9. AVTAK  10. TMWTGG  11. QoS 12. GE  13. CR  14. TB  15. FRWL  16. LTK  17. GF  18. SF  19. LaLD  20. YOLT  21. TND  22. DAD  23. DAF.

"If you'll forgive me, that's a little too scented for my palate."

307

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

heartbroken_mr_drax wrote:
Matt S wrote:

That scream brings her down to being one of the worst Bond girls. I still place her above Jinx, though Jinx easily has the better wardrobe.

Despite the potential to be horribly dated (in some of the promo shots her hair is very 80s) her style in the film still looks very good. My fiance who's a textile fashion designer sees Stacy's wardrobe to be very current and quite amazing.

In particular her outfit when she arrives at Chantilly, her dress at the party and her striped top she's wearing when she gets fired.

Early 2000s fashion that Jinx mainly wears has dated poorly and is renowned for being a tacky period generally.

(I'm aware of your knowledge in this field too  ajb007/bond )

I don't have much knowledge of women's fashions, though my girlfriend isn't a fan of 1980s fashions or current ones since the clothes are too boxy. I agree that Stacey wears some nice clothes for the time. But have you forgotten about something orange that Jinx wears? That's what I had in mind.

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Matt S wrote:

But have you forgotten about something orange that Jinx wears? That's what I had in mind.

Yeah the bikini is amazing and she looks incredible - although I will say that my appreciation of the scene is marred by the slow-mo, the hair-flick (come on, that's what Austin Powers did in TSWSM) and the blatant rip-off of DN which didn't really need to be done...

1. TWINE  2. FYEO  3. MR  4. TLD  5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS  7. DN  8. OP  9. AVTAK  10. TMWTGG  11. QoS 12. GE  13. CR  14. TB  15. FRWL  16. LTK  17. GF  18. SF  19. LaLD  20. YOLT  21. TND  22. DAD  23. DAF.

"If you'll forgive me, that's a little too scented for my palate."

309

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

It amazes me how they made a fine actress like Berry look so bad with the dialogue. Both in the first meeting with Bond (there is a mouthful) as well as in the meeting with Frost (demonstrate his big bang theory..) the dialogue was ridiculous. No one in the world has that kind of conversations. Such a shame how they messed that up. Poor Pierce...

OHMSS, FRWL, DN, GF, CR, GE, SP, YOLT, TB, TSWLM, LALD, TLD, TND, FYEO, SF, MR, TMWTGG, TWINE, OP, AVTAK, DAF, LTK, QOS, DAD

1. Connery 2. Craig 3. Brosnan 4. Dalton 5. Lazenby 6. Moore

310

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Mr_Osato wrote:

It amazes me how they made a fine actress like Berry look so bad with the dialogue. Both in the first meeting with Bond (there is a mouthful) as well as in the meeting with Frost (demonstrate his big bang theory..) the dialogue was ridiculous. No one in the world has that kind of conversations. Such a shame how they messed that up. Poor Pierce...

Though the dialogue is awful, Berry wasn't acting particularly natural either.

311

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Mr_Osato wrote:

It amazes me how they made a fine actress like Berry look so bad with the dialogue. Both in the first meeting with Bond (there is a mouthful) as well as in the meeting with Frost (demonstrate his big bang theory..) the dialogue was ridiculous. No one in the world has that kind of conversations. Such a shame how they messed that up. Poor Pierce...

What do you mean?! I use those exact same lines with every job interview I am involved in.... for some reason we are still looking for the right candidate.

1. Ohmss   2. Frwl   3. Op   4. Tswlm   5. Tld   6. Ge  7. Yolt 8. Lald   9. Cr   10. Ltk   11. Dn   12. Gf   13. Qos   14. Mr   15. Tmwtgg   16. Fyeo   17. Twine   18. Sf   19. Tb   20 Tnd   21. Spectre   22 Daf   23. Avtak   24. Dad

312

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Peppermill wrote:
Mr_Osato wrote:

It amazes me how they made a fine actress like Berry look so bad with the dialogue. Both in the first meeting with Bond (there is a mouthful) as well as in the meeting with Frost (demonstrate his big bang theory..) the dialogue was ridiculous. No one in the world has that kind of conversations. Such a shame how they messed that up. Poor Pierce...

What do you mean?! I use those exact same lines with every job interview I am involved in.... for some reason we are still looking for the right candidate.

ajb007/lol 

Matt S wrote:
Mr_Osato wrote:

It amazes me how they made a fine actress like Berry look so bad with the dialogue. Both in the first meeting with Bond (there is a mouthful) as well as in the meeting with Frost (demonstrate his big bang theory..) the dialogue was ridiculous. No one in the world has that kind of conversations. Such a shame how they messed that up. Poor Pierce...

Though the dialogue is awful, Berry wasn't acting particularly natural either.

I agree. To me it highlights Tamihori's directorial skill - even if that's a contradiction of the incredible performance he got out of the actors in Once Were Warriors.

While Brosnan's performance is ferocious, I'd also say that his performance is nowhere near as cool as his previous three. At times it's almost as he's trying quite hard - something that was more effortless (in the better directed) TWINE.

1. TWINE  2. FYEO  3. MR  4. TLD  5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS  7. DN  8. OP  9. AVTAK  10. TMWTGG  11. QoS 12. GE  13. CR  14. TB  15. FRWL  16. LTK  17. GF  18. SF  19. LaLD  20. YOLT  21. TND  22. DAD  23. DAF.

"If you'll forgive me, that's a little too scented for my palate."

313

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Matt S wrote:
Mr_Osato wrote:

It amazes me how they made a fine actress like Berry look so bad with the dialogue. Both in the first meeting with Bond (there is a mouthful) as well as in the meeting with Frost (demonstrate his big bang theory..) the dialogue was ridiculous. No one in the world has that kind of conversations. Such a shame how they messed that up. Poor Pierce...

Though the dialogue is awful, Berry wasn't acting particularly natural either.

I agree. The dialogue is terrible and Berry, usually a good actress, gives a lame performance. However, I've never seen her looking better. What a waste! ajb007/crap

"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."

314

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

I look at DAD as an overblown celebration of 40 years of Bond.

Pros:
.Broz is on fire during the first half. He's basically going through the motions during the second half.
.Vibrant cinematography.
.David Arnold's score.
.While he came up with the worst aspects, Tamahori does a good job during the first two thirds.
.While not a great Bond song, i cant help but like Madonna's theme.
.Title sequence.
.Apart from the heart stopping and Jinx, almost everything from the gunbarrel to the party at the Ice Palace is great.
.The scene at the abandoned station between Bond and M is much better than Bond's whining in SF.
.Graves is an arrogant d**k.
.Rosumond Pike. ajb007/amazed
.Takes elements from the MR novel.
.Zao.
.The Vanquish and the car chase.
.John Cleese.
."Maybe you've been down here too long".
.Lol i actually enjoy both VR scenes. I know im in the minority. Maybe its cause im young.
.Like all the references to past films.
.The CGI bullet isn't so bad. Beats the SF gunbarrel.
.I just love the vibe of this film. The nostalgia doesn't hurt.

Cons:
.Godawful CGI. Mainly Jinx's dive, the tsunami surfing, and finale.
.Some of Jinx's dialogue.
.Robosuit.
.The finale is just too much.
.The slow motion footage.

If ya think about it, the excess of DAD led to the masterpiece that is CR. So its really a blessing in disguise.

8/10. ajb007/martini

Last edited by Remington (9th Sep 2017 22:55)

1. Connery 2. Moore 3. Dalton 4. Brosnan 5. Craig 6. Lazenby

315

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

First 1 hour was better than after.

316

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Remington wrote:

I look at DAD as an overblown celebration of 40 years of Bond.

Pros:
.Broz is on fire during the first half. He's basically going through the motions during the second half.
.Vibrant cinematography.
.David Arnold's score.
.While he came up with the worst aspects, Tamahori does a good job during the first two thirds.
.While not a great Bond song, i cant help but like Madonna's theme.
.Title sequence.
.Apart from the heart stopping and Jinx, almost everything from the gunbarrel to the party at the Ice Palace is great.
.The scene at the abandoned station between Bond and M is much better than Bond's whining in SF.
.Graves is an arrogant d**k.
.Rosumond Pike. ajb007/amazed
.Takes elements from the MR novel.
.Zao.
.The Vanquish and the car chase.
.John Cleese.
."Maybe you've been down here too long".
.Lol i actually enjoy both VR scenes. I know im in the minority. Maybe its cause im young.
.Like all the references to past films.
.The CGI bullet isn't so bad. Beats the SF gunbarrel.

Cons:
.Godawful CGI. Mainly Jinx's dive, the tsunami surfing, and finale.
.Halle Berry is a decent actress but shes terrible.
.Robosuit.
.Invisible car is too much. Purvis and Wades plan was to have the adaptive camouflage go up to like 6 but Tamahori had it go to 11.
.Michael Madsen is annoying.
.Some pretty bad dialogue.
.The finale is just too much.
.Sped up footage and slow motion.
.Mr. Kil and laser fight.

If ya think about it, the excess of DAD led to the masterpiece that is CR. So its really a blessing in disguise.

7/10. ajb007/martini

There does seem to be a Pendulum with Bond, a kind of inverted entropy where excess build up to a crescendo then is scaled back towards taughtness and believability.

Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.

317

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Skyfinger wrote:

First 1 hour was better than after.

That seems to be the general Bond fan consensus, yes. I concur also. ajb007/martini

Writer/Director @ The Bondologist Blog (TBB)
On Twitter: @Dragonpol 
'Like' TBB on FB: TBB Update Page
"The man who was only a silhouette." - Ian Fleming, Moonraker (1955).

318

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Well, Die Another Day is a mish-mash of an enjoyable film with a genuinely bad one. Everything until Cuba is rather good, I liked Chang but wished that they had gotten Wai to return. Cuba has a strong beginning but is ruined by the bad dialogue between Jinx and Bond. The clinic doesn't feel as luxurious as it could've been and Cuba isn't the right location for it. I wish they had gone to a third location and not back to London. VR Scene is ok, even if the set design for it doesn't make much sense, considering how much moving around Bond did. I like Cleese as Q but not as good as Desmond's Q (naturally). Bond meeting M should've also been done in a different location and...you know the rest.

a reasonable rate of return

319

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

This is a great film and it has no flaws as far as I'm concerned.

320

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

The first half of Die Another Day is awesome. Bond escaping MI6 capture, the Havana clinic, the fencing sequence. Once we get to the ice palace, the story begins to unravel, but it's only once Bond escapes onto the ice and surfs a tsunami that it degenerates into unbelievable farce. And it only gets more and more unbelievable from there.

Jinx's repartee with Bond is enjoyable but it makes the character distant from the audience so we don't care about her imminent death in the ice palace. Cool concept for a character but she doesn't work well as a Bond girl.

David Arnold's score is fantastic in the first half, and I love the usage of cues from Barry's scores and even Arnold's own scores, especially TWINE. But, like the rest of the film, it degenerates into uninspired territory in the second half. I enjoy the theme song too and, of course, London Calling.

The cast is very hit and miss. Toby Stephen's portrayal of Graves is great and Zao is a menacing henchman, but most of the rest of the cast, bar the regulars, are forgettable. Rosamund Pike is beautiful but her character is unlikeable. John Cleese gives a wonderful performance as Q though. It's a shame we didn't get to see more films with him in the role.

The torture scene during the title sequence is an interesting idea but means it lacks the emotional power it could have had. Plus Bond doesn't seem too shaken up after 14 months of torture. Craig would have nailed this scene.

The sped up pans and slow motion footage is mostly unnecessary. This is the first viewing where I've noticed how lacklustre the CG is in the film.

I grew up in the Brosnan era and enjoyed his films immensely at the time. But in retrospect, apart from Goldeneye, there is too much emphasis on excessive and over the top action sequences in his films. It's a shame because Brosnan was a great Bond and apart from TWINE, we didn't get to see his full range. His portrayal of Bond was very much of the 90s with his sensitive side. As much as I love Dalton's portrayal of Fleming's character, his rougher portrayal wouldn't have flown in the 90s. Brosnan was the perfect man for the role in that era, like Moore was in the 70s, and its a shame, like the other long running actors who played Bond, that his last film was his weakest.

Last edited by IcePak (2nd Jul 2017 14:01)

1. CR 2 OHMSS 3. TSWLM 4. TLD 5. SF 6. FRwL
7. GE 8. FYEO 9. LtK 10. TMwtGG 11. AVtaK 12.OP
13. DN 14. GF 15. TND 16. SP 17. TB 18. TWiNE
19. MR 20. YOLT 21. LaLD 22. QoS 23. DAD 24. DAF

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Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

IcePak wrote:

The cast is very hit and miss. Toby Stephen's portrayal of Graves is great and Zao is a menacing henchman, but most of the rest of the cast, bar the regulars, are unforgettable. Rosamund Pike is beautiful but her character is unlikeable. John Cleese gives a wonderful performance as Q though. It's a shame we didn't get to see more films with him in the role.

I don't understand what you're trying to say.
The expression is "hit or miss" (are you trying to say that they chose the right actors but their performance/characters weren't good?).
"are unforgettable" (or did you mean forgettable?)
I'm sorry, but could you clarify what you're trying to say?

a reasonable rate of return

322

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

I will keep this simple, because I love this film and it's mostly between 15th and 17th place in my ranking and before the Craig era I had it at No 10.

Cons: the 11 seconds of CGI Brosnan.

Pros: everything else, yes you heard that right.

I can understand if people debate some of Jinx dialogue, but even there mostly it's pure prejudice because of YO Mamma which is infinitely less annoying than Mommy...was....verybad and Mooooommmyy!!!

The plane end-fight may be OTT yes but so what?? Bond is OTT as well and even sci-fi.

Dalton Rulez™

323

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Dirty Punker wrote:
IcePak wrote:

The cast is very hit and miss. Toby Stephen's portrayal of Graves is great and Zao is a menacing henchman, but most of the rest of the cast, bar the regulars, are unforgettable. Rosamund Pike is beautiful but her character is unlikeable. John Cleese gives a wonderful performance as Q though. It's a shame we didn't get to see more films with him in the role.

I don't understand what you're trying to say.
The expression is "hit or miss" (are you trying to say that they chose the right actors but their performance/characters weren't good?).
"are unforgettable" (or did you mean forgettable?)
I'm sorry, but could you clarify what you're trying to say?

Thanks. I did mean most of the cast was forgettable and have ammended my post.

By hit and miss I mean some of them didn't work for me. Again, as characters and perfomers, they were forgettable to me. Apart from those I mentioned.

1. CR 2 OHMSS 3. TSWLM 4. TLD 5. SF 6. FRwL
7. GE 8. FYEO 9. LtK 10. TMwtGG 11. AVtaK 12.OP
13. DN 14. GF 15. TND 16. SP 17. TB 18. TWiNE
19. MR 20. YOLT 21. LaLD 22. QoS 23. DAD 24. DAF

324

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

IcePak wrote:
Dirty Punker wrote:
IcePak wrote:

The cast is very hit and miss. Toby Stephen's portrayal of Graves is great and Zao is a menacing henchman, but most of the rest of the cast, bar the regulars, are unforgettable. Rosamund Pike is beautiful but her character is unlikeable. John Cleese gives a wonderful performance as Q though. It's a shame we didn't get to see more films with him in the role.

I don't understand what you're trying to say.
The expression is "hit or miss" (are you trying to say that they chose the right actors but their performance/characters weren't good?).
"are unforgettable" (or did you mean forgettable?)
I'm sorry, but could you clarify what you're trying to say?

Thanks. I did mean most of the cast was forgettable and have ammended my post.

By hit and miss I mean some of them didn't work for me. Again, as characters and perfomers, they were forgettable to me. Apart from those I mentioned.

Then I completely agree with you. Thank you.

a reasonable rate of return

325

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

I've always been a closet DAD fan. Had to edit my original post. I put down too many cons. ajb007/lol
ajb007/martini

1. Connery 2. Moore 3. Dalton 4. Brosnan 5. Craig 6. Lazenby