26

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

chrisisall wrote:
Virgil37 wrote:

In general, as with all Brosnan period, quite disappointing.

I'm sad to see that you can't enjoy Brosnan's films. I enjoy 90% or EON's efforts on different levels, and I reserve 'disappointing' only for MR, AVTAK, & SF. Even DAF & DAD don't fall in there for me at this point.

I enjoy things about the Brosnan films, but in general they disappointed me. That includes my all time low of the franchise, TND. The only one I consider not disappointing is TWINE. I've been consistent with that from the day I first saw them in 1995,1997,1999 and 2002.

You reserve disappointing for films I like very much. It's just normal to have different opinions.

27

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

I read a funny Review of DAD a few Years back, and the Reviewer said that 'DAD tickles your Balls and slaps your Willy'  ajb007/lol

1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger

28

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

http://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblo … film-recap

The Guardian sticks the boot in...

1. For Your Eyes Only      2. The Living Daylights    3 From Russia with Love  4. Casino Royale  5. OHMSS  6. Skyfall

29

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

I have said this before, but the film has redeaming qualities. I loved the idea of Bond spending time in prison, the plot is very Bondean, and the cinematography was unique and interesting for the series.

My BIGGEST gripe was the dialogue. It is just pitifully bad. Everyone loves Bond's oneliners when sparse and well timed, but this film took it off the deep end. Not only was almost EVERY SINGLE LINE uttered from Brosnan a silly pun, but almost every other character shared in it! The entire population of the film shouldn't share Bond's sense of humor. It came off incredibly one dimensional and infantile.

I posted examples elsewhere, but watch it again with that in mind and you will see that every person, almost every line, is pun after pun, after pun. When you are using double entendre and pun as exposition, you have gone too far!

30

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Pros

The first part of the movie up until Bond leaves Cuba.

Cons

The rest of the movie!

And I must comment separately on Jinx (Halle Berry), as I see that some commentators consider her as an asset, while others view her as one of the film's worst elements:

Pros

Seeing Berry on screen. She is top of the line when it comes to the gorgeousness of Bond Girls.

Cons

Just about every time Berry opens her mouth. She has absolutely some of the worst lines and worst line readings in the entire series.

"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."

31

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

The good heavily outweighs the bad with Jinx.  She's a strong agent rather than a bikini girl.  Beautiful, but no ditz.  She has real chemistry with Bond and their sex scenes are actually appealing rather than corny.  Moore's sex scenes weren't believable, Connery's didn't have any real intimacy and Dalton was a prude.

On another note, I remember a guy talking about shaking Pierce Brosnan's hand and then saying to him "This is the closest my hand has ever been to Halle Berry's ass".

32

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

I do agree with Galling in a way.  The humor of this movie is very forced.  Connery was, no doubt, the king of one-liners.  And they tried to follow off on that formula.  Moore didn't do too bad of a job, but they felt a bit awkward with Dalton.  With Brosnan, the delivery of his lines wasn't the problem, but with the writing itself.  It's like they forced it in rather than let it naturally happen.  With Connery, it genuinely felt like he just thought of those one-liners while he was on the set that moment.

I think this stems from a bigger thing, Die Another Day's identity crisis.  Like some of Brosnan's other films, it didn't know what they wanted to be.  They just wanted to sell well and be good blockbuster hits.  It didn't know what it really wanted to be, so it threw tons of different elements up in the air.  Some worked well and others didn't.  It was overall entertaining but indecisive.  Yes, Octopussy for example was silly but at least it was consistent and it knew what it wanted to be.

33

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Blackleiter wrote:

Pros

The first part of the movie up until Bond leaves Cuba.

Cons

The rest of the movie!

And I must comment separately on Jinx (Halle Berry), as I see that some commentators consider her as an asset, while others view her as one of the film's worst elements:

Pros

Seeing Berry on screen. She is top of the line when it comes to the gorgeousness of Bond Girls.

Cons

Just about every time Berry opens her mouth. She has absolutely some of the worst lines and worst line readings in the entire series.

Pretty much agree on all counts. Except, I would say the first part of the film up to and including the sword fight.

I am not certain Halle Berry is completely at fault for her delivery. The awful dialogue certainly does not help, but I am wondering what sort of contribution (if any) Lee Tamahori made?

Moore Not Less 4371 posts (2002 - 2007)       Moore Than (2012 - 2016)

34

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Absolutely_Cart wrote:

She's a strong agent rather than a bikini girl

That was clearly the intent, but to me it didn't come across that way. From her extremely obvious cracks about something being "a mouthful', to her very corny and stereotypical retort of "Yo Mama!", Berry just isn't at her best in selling what is, in my opinion, some very poorly-written dialogue. I also disagree about the chemistry between Brosnan and Berry. I just don't see it.

"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."

35

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Off topic - A big part of the reason GoldenEye was so big is the N64 video game of the movie. It turned a lot of younger kids (myself included, I was 13 when I got mine for the Christmas of 1998, I'm 29 now) into James Bond fans. it proved that movie based video games didn't always have to be terrible and was one of the first first person shooters (FPS) to be built for a home console and not the PC, also it proved multiplayer on consoles could be better.


As for the topic -

Pros:

Anniversary movie*
Brosnan's final bow as James Bond
Great PTS , a little long, but so was TWINE's
Hovercraft chase was awesome
Bond vs Graves sword fight
Great chase scene on the ice

Cons:

Anniversary movie*
Madonna's song and appearance
John Cleese should have been left as R instead of being Q
CGI could have been better....or not used at all



* = While being an anniversary movie was good and a few throwbacks were nice, it was a tad overdone, I thought.

1, GE 2, CR 3, SF 4, TWINE 5, Spectre 6, TMWTGG 7, DAD 8, LALD 9, AVTAK 10, LTK 11, Octopussy 12, Moonraker 13, TLD 14, GF 15, QOS 16, Tomorrow 17, FYEO 18. TSWLM Not seen much: Dr. No, Russia, Thunderball, Twice, Majesty.

1: Brosnan 2: Craig 3: Moore 4: Dalton 5: Connery and 6: Lazenby

36

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

OMG, I forgot that truly horrendous CGI bullet totally ruining Brosnan's last gunbarrel. I know it was the "40th anniversary" and all, but what a silly way to celebrate it.

37

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

PROS:
1. Bond gets captured and tortured, the whole title sequence showing his time in prison is great.
2. solid first half until Iceland.
3. good SFX
4. david arnolds overly techno score has some pretty cool tracks, especially the gunbarrel music.

CONS:
1. everything that's been already mentioned millions of times by now.

38

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Pros:
Lots of energy
A GREAT Brosnan performance
The Pikelet
Toby Stevens was fantastic at OTT
The swordfight
The score (mostly)

Cons:
Dodgy CGI
Berry's dialogue in places
The Moneypenny VR scene

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

39

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

This is a tough one for me. In 2002 I was starting a new chapter in my life having been in a bad place for a couple of years. Before it started I had seen Star Trek Insurection and TWINE. I loved both films. As I was enjoying my change of direction, I was really looking forward to seeing Star Trek Nemisis and DAD, so they could gatepost the end of that bad point in my life. I hated both films to the extreme!

DAD has changed in my eyes, but only after someone pointed out its key flaw. First half Connery era, second half Moore era. It doesn't try to do anything truly stand alone outside of the PTS. Jinx should have been a brilliant character, and has all the right physicality and function, but the dialogue is awful. It goes against her as an action heroine. The same is true of the Q scene. It should work, but everything thrown in from 40 years is blatant, and Cleese is given jokes he clearly had no input on. Perhaps the biggest problem is Toby Stephens as Graves. I have a very hard time matching his performance to Moon at the start, he lacks energy and conviction, looking either gaunt or bored at times.  Bond is outlaw one moment, key operative the next. The film has so many disjointed jumps it doesn't flow very well, and that problem only eases with multiple viewings. You know when the pace will change, so you are ready for it.
  It's clear director Tamori was desperate to do something new and different and it  simply doesn't work. The CGI feels excessive and fake (ruining the stunts are real tradition in the process of the earlier and later films), and the levels of hype in promoting the film were far too much.

   However, there are individual pieces that are clever. The Vanquish is one of the best Bond cars, and the use of the ice palace is big scale and opulent, both for the party scenes and the car chase. David Arnold's top notch music. The locations used as nicely done and the miniatures work harks back to the glory days of the Moore era. The Icarus orbital weapon is true to YOLT, DAF and MKR in technological scope. Using North Korea as the framework of the baddie has Smersh / Spectre touches to it and Mr Brosnan does have a couple of good scenes with Dame Judi's M, as well as the chap in Cuba, and Mr Chang in Hong Kong. Rick Yune knows he is joining the Rosa Klebb, Oddjob and Jaws brigade, and brings a workable level of physical and even psycho menace to Zao. Finally, Rosamund Pike does a good job of making Frost unlikeable before she is revealed as the turncoat. (Incidentally, Her comments on the audio commentary are charming, insightful and often damned funny too!)
  All of these things I discovered and appreciated through the DVD and my telly, not the cinema screen. Which for a Bond film is simply out of place. DAD will always be an experiment that went wrong a bit like QoS did six years later. But like the later film it does have redeeming qualities that I find genuinely enjoyable.


Star Trek Nemisis however, will never be so fortunate.

Last edited by Thunderbird 2 (9th Feb 2015 22:55)

This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?

40

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

chrisisall wrote:

Toby Stevens was fantastic at OTT

A bit over the top, but cool indeed. Brosnan's best villain after Elektra King (of course).

41

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Thunderbird 2 wrote:

Star Trek Nemisis however, will never be so fortunate.

I tried SO HARD to like Nemesis, really I did.
I don't have to try with DAD.

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

42

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

I liked Toby Stevens as a villain.  ajb007/martini

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

43

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Absolutely_Cart wrote:

I do agree with Galling in a way.  The humor of this movie is very forced.  Connery was, no doubt, the king of one-liners.  And they tried to follow off on that formula.  Moore didn't do too bad of a job, but they felt a bit awkward with Dalton.  With Brosnan, the delivery of his lines wasn't the problem, but with the writing itself.  It's like they forced it in rather than let it naturally happen.  With Connery, it genuinely felt like he just thought of those one-liners while he was on the set that moment.

I think this stems from a bigger thing, Die Another Day's identity crisis.  Like some of Brosnan's other films, it didn't know what they wanted to be.  They just wanted to sell well and be good blockbuster hits.  It didn't know what it really wanted to be, so it threw tons of different elements up in the air.  Some worked well and others didn't.  It was overall entertaining but indecisive.  Yes, Octopussy for example was silly but at least it was consistent and it knew what it wanted to be.

Blackleiter wrote:

Cons

Just about every time Berry opens her mouth. She has absolutely some of the worst lines and worst line readings in the entire series.

++1  ajb007/martini  ajb007/martini

44

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Virgil37 wrote:

my all time low of the franchise, TND.

That's rather hilarious.
Not DAD, or MR or AVTAK or TMWTGG, but a competently produced, written & directed adventure with a great Bond girl, and a good climax.
So what? You hate Chinese girls? Machine guns? Stealth boats? Nuts who have influence on world events? A Bond that falls for his chick & vows not to leave her behind?
I get that it might not be your favourite or that it might be near the bottom of your list, but to characterize it as "all time low" indicates a personal prejudice that you seem unable to acknowledge to both me and yourself. ajb007/rolleyes

How about I say YOLT was the all time low? Or maybe FYEO?
I mean, as long as we are striving to make no sense.... ajb007/lol

Last edited by chrisisall (10th Feb 2015 04:33)

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

45

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

chrisisall wrote:
Thunderbird 2 wrote:

Star Trek Nemisis however, will never be so fortunate.

I tried SO HARD to like Nemesis, really I did.

The annoying thing is that "Nemesis" isn't intrinsically a bad film (like, say, "Generations")- there's a good movie in there struggling to get out..

46

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

To be honest I think a warts 'an all book/documentary should be done on DAD

Rather like Charles Helfensteins review of OHMSS. What went wrong? Did the director have too much power? Did the studios back the director? Did the studios not have any faith with Babs? Did they go for bums-on-seats? Did the director have no inclinations of what he was doing?

I know Mickey G cut himself away from the film (let alone Pierce) but how did Babs feel? How did most of the cast feel about it? How did Halle, Rosamunde and Toby feel about it? How it did he feel hamming it up so any sense of menace is destroyed

I really think there is a really juicy documentary to be made of this?

1. For Your Eyes Only      2. The Living Daylights    3 From Russia with Love  4. Casino Royale  5. OHMSS  6. Skyfall

47

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

chrisisall wrote:
Virgil37 wrote:

my all time low of the franchise, TND.

That's rather hilarious.
Not DAD, or MR or AVTAK or TMWTGG, but a competently produced, written & directed adventure with a great Bond girl, and a good climax.
So what? You hate Chinese girls? Machine guns? Stealth boats? Nuts who have influence on world events? A Bond that falls for his chick & vows not to leave her behind?
I get that it might not be your favourite or that it might be near the bottom of your list, but to characterize it as "all time low" indicates a personal prejudice that you seem unable to acknowledge to both me and yourself. ajb007/rolleyes

How about I say YOLT was the all time low? Or maybe FYEO?
I mean, as long as we are striving to make no sense.... ajb007/lol

I've gone through my reasons for considering TND the all time low of the franchise. Others feel that way in this forum, so I'm not the only one. I don't foresee that will change in the future.

In any case, with your "chinese girls" and "personal prejudice" comments you are clearly crossing a red line, so get a grip, chrisisall.

48

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Thunderpussy wrote:

I liked Toby Stevens as a villain.  ajb007/martini

I liked him as well TP. An arrogant, power hungry jerk. Toby Stephens played him perfectly

Have you ever heard of the Emancipation Proclamation?"

" I don't listen to hip hop!"

49

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Toby Stevens read out FRWL in the Audiogo Bond Audiobook Series.

1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger

50

Re: Pros and Cons: Die Another Day

Hehadlotsofguts wrote :
" I liked him as well TP. An arrogant, power hungry jerk. Toby Stephens played him perfectly"
Yes, he was an arrogant tosser, I wanted Bond to kick the sh*t out of him  ajb007/martini

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”