176

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

Yeah the convoluted aspect of it explains the motives for doing such a thing with Orlov in order to smuggle both the jewellery and the bomb to locations they wish.

TP is right, Khan wishes to do so because he will make millions of dollars by stealing it away from Octopussy.

1. TWINE  2. FYEO  3. MR  4. TLD  5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS  7. DN  8. OP  9. AVTAK  10. TMWTGG  11. QoS 12. GE  13. CR  14. TB  15. FRWL  16. LTK  17. GF  18. SF  19. LaLD  20. YOLT  21. TND  22. DAD  23. DAF.

"If you'll forgive me, that's a little too scented for my palate."

177

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

Pros: It was fun. Had a lot of good Bond elements. The bomb scene was appropriately tense. The opening was fantastic.

Cons: THAT GODDAMNED TARZAN YELL. Not only did it kill the tension of the scene where he's hunted, it makes no sense for Bond to basically announce himself like that. Octopussy becomes a damsel in distress and gets "seduced" far too easily, a criticism I also have of Pussy Galore in Goldfinger. Bond being an outright perv with the camera. Also, whitewashing, much as Louis Jourdan was great in the role.

178

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

Thunderpussy wrote:

I always thought, he was getting all the real jewellery, which would have been
Worth millions. As his pay off for helping  Orlov ?

heartbroken_mr_drax wrote:

Yeah the convoluted aspect of it explains the motives for doing such a thing with Orlov in order to smuggle both the jewellery and the bomb to locations they wish.

TP is right, Khan wishes to do so because he will make millions of dollars by stealing it away from Octopussy.

So simple, I feel dumb for not getting it. I suppose the narrative just confuses me, it truly is the most convoluted plot in a series that is typically far more straight-forward.

Jovius wrote:

Octopussy becomes a damsel in distress and gets "seduced" far too easily, a criticism I also have of Pussy Galore in Goldfinger.

I think it's a different situation. You can tell from the moment Kamal Khan tells her that he has JAMES BOND in his custody that she wants him. She even orders Khan to bring him to her. I'm not sure what monumental reputation he has that makes her so intrigued, but I don't find it surprising that it takes little effort for Bond to seal to deal.

I do agree that her becoming the typical damsel at the end is dumb, as soon as Khan grabs her by the arm she becomes helpless. I don't have a problem with the damsel-in-distress cliche, but after making her out to be such a capable character it doesn't make much sense. It's similar to what happens to Anya in TSWLM, but even more jarring.

1.TSWLM 2.LTK 3.YOLT 4.OHMSS 5.TWINE 6.LALD 7.MR 8.GE 9.DN 10.FRWL
Bond: Pierce Brosnan  Villain: Hugo Drax  Girl: Pam Bouvier

179

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

Bond interrogating Orlov is a great scene, but the reaction of the soldier when Bond shoots him, ruins the scene.

Have you ever heard of the Emancipation Proclamation?"

" I don't listen to hip hop!"

180

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

Diabolik wrote:

You can tell from the moment Kamal Khan tells her that he has JAMES BOND in his custody that she wants him. She even orders Khan to bring him to her. I'm not sure what monumental reputation he has that makes her so intrigued

She recognises his name as the British agent who had been sent to bring her father to justice, but who allowed him to "take the decent way out" rather than face a court martial. This is taken from Fleming.

Edit- she mentions that "Octopussy" was her father's pet name for her. I've always thought that this meant her real name had to be Octavia Smythe, just as Solitaire's is Simone Latrelle.

181

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

Barbel wrote:

She recognises his name as the British agent who had been sent to bring her father to justice, but who allowed him to "take the decent way out" rather than face a court martial. This is taken from Fleming.

Damn I forgot about that part, she converses with Bond about it after he sneaks into her room. Even so I can still understand why that would make her far more open to his advances.

1.TSWLM 2.LTK 3.YOLT 4.OHMSS 5.TWINE 6.LALD 7.MR 8.GE 9.DN 10.FRWL
Bond: Pierce Brosnan  Villain: Hugo Drax  Girl: Pam Bouvier

182

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

Diabolik wrote:

I think it's a different situation. You can tell from the moment Kamal Khan tells her that he has JAMES BOND in his custody that she wants him. She even orders Khan to bring him to her. I'm not sure what monumental reputation he has that makes her so intrigued,

Bond is an old friend of the family you might say…

hehadlotsofguts wrote:

Bond interrogating Orlov is a great scene, but the reaction of the soldier when Bond shoots him, ruins the scene.

You have got to be kidding me….  he gets shot in the head and falls back dead with that stunned look of surprise on his face. Poor kid…couldn't have been more than 19 years old and probably an honest Russian soldier. Bond whirled around and didn't hesitate to kill. One of the best and most startling cold blooded kills in the whole series.  Also an excellent way to cap off the brilliant interrogation scene with Orlov.

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183

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

Diabolik wrote:
Barbel wrote:

She recognises his name as the British agent who had been sent to bring her father to justice, but who allowed him to "take the decent way out" rather than face a court martial. This is taken from Fleming.

Damn I forgot about that part, she converses with Bond about it after he sneaks into her room. Even so I can still understand why that would make her far more open to his advances.

That entire scene is brilliantly acted by Moore. Seduction is her aim, but he's still sticking to the job at hand.

1. TWINE  2. FYEO  3. MR  4. TLD  5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS  7. DN  8. OP  9. AVTAK  10. TMWTGG  11. QoS 12. GE  13. CR  14. TB  15. FRWL  16. LTK  17. GF  18. SF  19. LaLD  20. YOLT  21. TND  22. DAD  23. DAF.

"If you'll forgive me, that's a little too scented for my palate."

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Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

hehadlotsofguts wrote:

Bond interrogating Orlov is a great scene, but the reaction of the soldier when Bond shoots him, ruins the scene.

You have got to be kidding me….  he gets shot in the head and falls back dead with that stunned look of surprise on his face. Poor kid…couldn't have been more than 19 years old and probably an honest Russian soldier. Bond whirled around and didn't hesitate to kill. One of the best and most startling cold blooded kills in the whole series.  Also an excellent way to cap off the brilliant interrogation scene with Orlov.

...And they say that Roger Moore doesn't do serious/murderous acts in any of his movies. There, that was one of them which didn't count as the main villain.

1. FYEO 2. OHMSS 3. TLD 4. FRWL 5. LTK 6. TSWLM 7. CR 8. OP  9. GF 10. DN 11. MR 12. SP 13. LALD 14. QOS 15. TB 16. SF 17. TMWTGG 18. GE 19. YOLT 20. AVTAK 21. TND 22. TWINE 23. DAF 24. DAD

1. Dalton 2. Connery 3. Moore 4. Craig 5. Lazenby  6. Brosnan

185

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

So my Bond marathon continues with Octopussy.  So it's a while since I've seen the film and I have to say I enjoyed it better than I thought I would.  After the harder Bond in FYEO we are plunged back into a MR type Camp feeling, with the exceptions of some scenes which are both graphic and gritty.  For Example the PTS is a great start to the movie with the death of 009.  Virtually all of the train fight scenes especially Bond killing Russian soldiers one straight between the eyes.  However if we compare those scenes to the fight sequences at the end of the film in Octopussy's palace, which for me felt more like fight sequences from the 1960's Batman TV series. All those fight sequences were missing was "Ker Pow", "thud" etc type exclamations.

The story to the film is really strong, I think the screenplay writers did a good job.  This was released in 1983, then a year later Frederick Forsyth releases his Spy novel entitled "The Fourth Protocol" which fundamently is just the same story line as appears in Octopussy.

The film tips it's hat to Goldfinger in that the Villain is cheating in a game for high stakes.  Also a very "Oddjob" moment when Gobinda crushes the loaded dice as opposed to a golf ball.

The whole auction scene is great, and how Bond follows the egg is also very good. 

On the negative I loved FYEO as we saw a gritty Moore Bond, in this we are back to the humorous Moore Bond.  Moore is starting to show his age, and looks every year of the 56 years he was at the time of release.

Not Moore's worst Bond movie, I've seen six of them at the moment and I would rate them in the following order with AVTAK still to come:

1 FYEO
2 TSWLM
3 LALD
4 OP
5 TMWTGG
6 MR

FRWl, CR, OHMSS, TSWLM, GF, SF, TLD,  LTK, TND,  FYEO, OP,TWINE, GE, LALD, TB, SPECTRE, DN, YOLT, TMWTGG, QOS, MR, DAF, DAD, AVTAK.

"Do you expect me to talk?  "No Mister Bond I expect you to die"

186

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

UnderwaterBattle007 wrote:

Moore is starting to show his age, and looks every year of the 56 years he was at the time of release.

This is even more of an insult to his looks than you think, since he was only 55 at the time of the film's release.  ajb007/tongue

187

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

Matt S wrote:
UnderwaterBattle007 wrote:

Moore is starting to show his age, and looks every year of the 56 years he was at the time of release.

This is even more of an insult to his looks than you think, since he was only 55 at the time of the film's release.  ajb007/tongue

Mind you he looks far better than I did when I was 55...lol

FRWl, CR, OHMSS, TSWLM, GF, SF, TLD,  LTK, TND,  FYEO, OP,TWINE, GE, LALD, TB, SPECTRE, DN, YOLT, TMWTGG, QOS, MR, DAF, DAD, AVTAK.

"Do you expect me to talk?  "No Mister Bond I expect you to die"

188

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

Not an all time high. But it is a high.

Pros:
.Very interesting plot. Little convoluted though.
.The locations in India and Germany.
.Cold War vibe.
.Entire cast.
.Vibrant cinematography.
.General Orlov.
.The twins.
.Bigger role for Q.
.Penelope Smallbone. ajb007/heart

Cons:
.The finale is a little bloated.
.The gorilla costume.

No real flaws here.

9/10 ajb007/martini

1. Connery 2. Moore 3. Dalton 4. Brosnan 5. Craig 6. Lazenby

189

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

PROS
-a bit more Fleming content, mostly Property of a Lady, and the Blades scene from Moonraker. The title story is there, but reduced to a couple lines of dialog establishing the title character's back-story.
-the PoaL adaptation is very loose, but that's ok, because Fleming's story was pretty thin stuff, and the character Maria Freudenstein had been described as so ugly and undesirable her only choice in life was to sell out to the Soviets. Cinematically a good choice to replace her with the sexy Magda, now there is a lady.
The extrapolations from this story make up most of the first half of the film.
-continues the stripped down cold war intrigues of the previous film. Sort of. In between other scenes.
-George McDonald Fraser (Flashman) is credited with the script, though Wikipedia claims he only wrote the first draft. Anybody know how much of the story is his?
-a lot of swashbuckling and exoticism, I think inspired by the recent Raiders of the Lost Ark
-India is a new setting, and adds much to the colourful palette of the film. Though it looks like a very romanticised, westerner's fantasy version of India, especially with the palaces, the barge, and the elephant hunt.
-whole lotta jiggling going on. Octopussy's island is much like Paradise Island from Wonder Woman, encouraging the same speculations as to what those women get up to, where no men are allowed.
-which reminds me: Magda wears a lot of skimpy flowing robes in the first half of the movie, which she always seems to be leaving in a trail behind her.
-...and, the octopus shaped bed. Its not just shaped like an octo-pussy: upon close inspection (we get several clear shots during the attempted assassination scene) it has a single round pillow mounted on the headboard, about a foot above the bed, in the centre. And is framed by long flowing drapes, almost like some type of hood. Certainly reminds me of something and its not a sea-creature?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-e72OhzqWayg/UP-6sJ5dG8I/AAAAAAAALbw/ILyDVcjHxvk/s400/077.jpg
https://seangstmthefortressofsolitude.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/lamont-2.jpg
-Gogol is back, and more or less a good guy again. His philosophical differences with Orlov forshadow similar debates we will see with Dench-M and war-hungry military types in later movies.
-I like the sequence of consecutive chase sequences we get in the later scenes. Especially the train and the circus. Very tense stuff, and unlike some films most of it is directly relevant to the plot.
-I like Moore in the clown costume. It really works, adds to the confusion. the circus scene is one of the best ticking timebomb sequences in the whole series, and would not work if Moore just showed up in his usual three piece suit.

CONS
-I've watched this film many times and still have no idea what the story is really all about.
-continues the rambling overlapping episodic plot structure of the previous film. But this time a bit too much, because I don't think this one makes any sense.
- a lot of stoopid Benny Hill level sex humour, which we haven't really seen for the last the last two films. Was this Fraser's contribution? He writes a lot of silly sex scenes in his novels, but they're usually a lot funnier and more original than this. Flashman getting laid inevitably sets up him up for some major unintended consequences.
-Vijay is very distracting and not funny. Maybe if I cared about tennis I'd care about the in-jokes? the market chase is much too silly already, following the change in tone of the previous film its a step backwards.
-Q in the field. I think to compensate for the absence of Bernard Lee (the new M hardly does the job of replacing him). I always like Llewelyn, but the added scenes are much too silly and do not add to the story.
-the hot air balloon. More stoopidity, and adds to the 19th century colonial-era fantasy version of India.
-the whole film is so literally colourful. Maybe the most brightly coloured of any Bond film. Not a bad thing in and of itself, but completely contradicts the gritty cold war tale that it wants to be. Even the Berlin scenes are dominated by the circus imagery. like the film is confused as to its own purpose.

in fact I'm not even sure all my observations count as pros or cons, the film seems so confused as to what it wants to be. Probably its just me who wants it to be something other than what it is.

190

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

Firemass wrote:

The real question is how did he changed into that outfit in like 2 minutes?? ?

this is a very good question. I believe he has less than five minutes left when he arrives at the Circus, so he not only puts on a clown costume but applies the correct makeup? all he needed to do was change to a shirt that wasn't red!

191

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

caractacus potts wrote:

-the whole film is so literally colourful. Maybe the most brightly coloured of any Bond film. Not a bad thing in and of itself, but completely contradicts the gritty cold war tale that it wants to be. Even the Berlin scenes are dominated by the circus imagery. like the film is confused as to its own purpose.
in fact I'm not even sure all my observations count as pros or cons, the film seems so confused as to what it wants to be. Probably its just me who wants it to be something other than what it is.


This is something I have wondered about. Who's bright idea was it to mix Cold War Berlin with exotic colorful India? Does it work?
(actually The Living Daylights follows a similar pattern too) 

Even when I want OP to be grim, it still doesn't meet expectations due to most of the Berlin scenes being at the circus. It was only after I watched the German film Wings of Desire that I realized the circus actually was an integral part of life for the city.

You raise an interesting question, should the film be faulted for being something other than what we want it to be?

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1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK

192

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

caractacus potts wrote:

-I've watched this film many times and still have no idea what the story is really all about.

This is a can of worms that I'm hesitant to reopen, but I totally feel the same way.

At the very least, the film could have been more clear about IF Kamal even noticed the egg was a fake. (I don't think he ever did)
Or why Orlov was so sure the egg he smashed was fake? Because he was wrong! (Again confusing)
Or end the film with the genuine egg being returned to Gogol instead of the "Romanov Star"

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193

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

I have to be in the right mood for OP because it has a LOT of dopey moments. But it's beautiful looking, the music is by Barry, and the bad guys are excellent. In the correct mood (and a Martini or two) it's grand fun.

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

194

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

chrisisall wrote:

...the music is by Barry...

can't believe I forgot this amongst my PROs. The Barry content outranks the Fleming content (because the Fleming content is very slight). It may not be so distinctive as his 60s scores, but it is lush and romantic, and he teases the main Bond theme with many variations. Always good to have Barry back.

195

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

Firemass wrote:

You raise an interesting question, should the film be faulted for being something other than what we want it to be?

I should probably just accept it as the brightly coloured Bond film set in India with a palace full of scantily clad beauties ... then I would get exactly the film I want!
it may just be in retrospect that I, and others, go in expecting a followup to FYEO. Perhaps because the same director did the two Dalton films? But maybe at the time FYEO was seen as a one-off, and the filmmakers were inspired by other things in the meantime (specifically Raiders of the Lost Ark)

anyway, I'm reminded anecdotally Octopussy was where I checked out, until the hype of Goldeneye twelve years later. I was becoming an artfilm snob, and this film disappointed me at the time, and its followup looked even worse so I didn't bother. Ironic you should mention Wings of Desire, because that's exactly what I was watching in the late 80s, instead of giving Timothy Dalton a chance.

I see upthread people have been trying to explain the plot to one another, so I'll just shut up and read instead of complaining.

196

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

The plot of OP (I've seen this many many times):
The Faberge' egg is used to do something, but it gets copied and Octopussy has something to do with it. Kamel Khan is working with Orlov to help him strike at the West to help him take control of Russia from the more cool-headed dudes there. A bomb gets diffused in a pretty damn good tense scene. Bond has a fight outside a train (after Orlov gets karma-ized), and a small plane, and Q gets lots of hugs from Octopussy's attractive acrobatic girls.

See, this is why I like the film so much- every time I watch it it's like seeing a new movie I've never seen before.  ajb007/lol

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

197

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

Firemass wrote:
caractacus potts wrote:

-I've watched this film many times and still have no idea what the story is really all about.

This is a can of worms that I'm hesitant to reopen, but I totally feel the same way.

At the very least, the film could have been more clear about IF Kamal even noticed the egg was a fake. (I don't think he ever did)
Or why Orlov was so sure the egg he smashed was fake? Because he was wrong! (Again confusing)
Or end the film with the genuine egg being returned to Gogol instead of the "Romanov Star"

Bond switched the real egg at auction for the fake one 009 recovered, so Kamal buys the fake egg back without realising it. When Bond reveals his egg (the real one, now with a tracking device) to Kamal at the casino, Kamal wasn't sure which egg he has and orders Magda to steal Bond's egg. Or perhaps Kamal thinks it's the fake egg and still wants it back since it was stolen in the first place. Either way, he wants both eggs. It doesn't matter that Bond switched the eggs, since Kamal would have wanted to steal either. Kamal, now with both in his possession, is able to figure out which is the real egg and which is the fake egg. Orlov destroys the real egg, and Kamal's expression shows that he knows that Orlov destroyed the wrong egg. Bond could never have returned the genuine egg because it was destroyed. Bond would not have tried to recover the real egg because he could hear in the listening device that is was destroyed.

198

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

Matt S wrote:

Bond could never have returned the genuine egg because it was destroyed. Bond would not have tried to recover the real egg because he could hear in the listening device that is was destroyed.

Right. I was actually suggesting a re-write of the film to allow Orlov to smash a fake and allow Bond to still recover the original.

Also, very true that Kamal would want both eggs. The audience expects him to notice the "switch" because it was such a great move by Bond. However, the "switch" really had no effect on Kamal whatsoever. In the end, it only resulted in the real egg being smashed because that's the one they planted the bug in. It's confusing to the audience how Orlov is so sure it's a fake, when he's actually wrong. The casual viewer is not going to take into account Kamal's reaction.

Then again, maybe it doesn't even matter.  The egg is never mentioned again in the film. If none of the characters care, then why should I care?  ajb007/rolleyes

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199

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

chrisisall wrote:

I have to be in the right mood for OP because it has a LOT of dopey moments.

Unfortunately it sure does! However, I can be in almost any mood because it's such an entertaining film.

caractacus potts wrote:

I was becoming an artfilm snob, and this film disappointed me at the time,

I've heard a few fans refer to Octopussy as an artfilm or of high artistic quality. Any thoughts on that?

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200

Re: Pros and Cons: Octopussy

Firemass wrote:
chrisisall wrote:

I have to be in the right mood for OP because it has a LOT of dopey moments.

caractacus potts wrote:

I was becoming an artfilm snob, and this film disappointed me at the time,

I've heard a few fans refer to Octopussy as an artfilm or of high artistic quality. Any thoughts on that?

Maybe due to its complexity with the egg and the stark difference between Khan and Orlov?
I love OP. It's may be the easiest film for me to follow through and enjoy. They give Roger so much flack for wearing a Clown suit but thanks to the tension I didn't think much of it when I first saw it.
Roger played it brilliantly in that scene.

a reasonable rate of return