26

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

I suppose you could say that Bond is still finding himself as an Agent, so the Gunbarrel wouldn't be at the start of the Craig Films yet.

Last edited by AlphaOmegaSin (14th Jun 2015 05:33)

1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger

27

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

Pros:

- The primary cast all give fine performances, even though the material is more limited emotionally and requires less of everyone than the last film.
- The camerawork and cinematography, while "modern arty," give the film a mature if often cold feel.
- Craig continues to effect a Connery vibe, though less so than previously, most evident in the scene when he goes to meet the "geologist," but this will disappear by the time he makes Skyfall.
-David Arnold's score evokes some Bondian moments.
- The sets, especially the hotel at the end, mimic some of Ken Adams' classics.

Cons:

- The PTS, like the rest of the film, is rushed and underdeveloped.
- The theme song is forgettable, and while the animation sequence of Casino Royale might well be the best of the series, this one was unimaginative (though it did seem to have a hidden gunbarrel or two).
- The director has very little sense of geography.  He composes shots as though they're static high fashion or architecture magazine photos and seems to think that if they're cut quickly and almost incomprehensibly, no one will notice.
- The script is murky and simplistic at the same time, an odd combination.  It lacks the gravitas of the previous film's but doesn't seem to have the self-awareness to know it.
- The action sequences generally lack emotional punch because the script creates few emotional stakes.  The dogfight is a good example.
- The girl has very little to do except look sexy.
- The villain has very little to do except look menacing.  By the time he's wielding an ax, who cares.
- Mr. White, who was wonderfully crocodilian in the previous film, is more of a wheezy VP of HR here.
- The business between Bond and Mathis is no more understandable at the end of the film than the start.
- Disposing of Mathis was unnecessary and he could simply have been allowed to return to his island.
- The visual allusions to previous Bond films -- Fields in oil, for instance -- were miscalculations.
- Given that Moneypenny does not make an appearance, Villiers should have returned.  In point of fact, I don't find Rory Kinnear's Tanner all that interesting, though he seemed to function as a replacement.
- Craig seems to have a flattened, "bowl" haircut in some scenes that ages him and makes him less sporty.
- Quantum, as the modern SPECTRE, seems about as scary and ambitious as the Nabisco Corporation.

A lot of the movie's failings are the result of its shortened length and poor script, so I still think there was a better Bond film in the making than what we got to see.

28

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

I've personally always liked the Homage to GF  ajb007/martini

And regarding Quantum, I hope we do find out what happens to them in SPECTRE.

1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger

29

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

I have grown to like QOS, over many, many viewings. Which I feel is
Quite an achievement, as my starting point was sheer unbridled hatred !  ajb007/lol
The problems with the writers strike is well documented, so perhaps having
a professional screenwriter, give it a final polish would have greatly helped.
It has indeed many good points, with a few weaknesses, it really is a case of
" What might have been ".   ajb007/martini

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

30

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

Barbel wrote:

I hope I covered some of that in the above post. The way Arnold used the melody of YKMN throughout the CR score provided a unity which benefited the movie. That couldn't be done with AWTD (or at least, not in as many ways: it could underscore an action sequence). Check the music in CR when Bond tries on his new jacket https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIn2JNcEpCk for an example.*
(The same argument could be used with Madonna's drivel for DAD, to show that it isn't just this one song. Arnold abstained from using it, bar briefly in the ice palace which I seem to recall wasn't entirely his decision http://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/11008/mad … cored-low/ ).

* Here, Arnold is of course following in the footsteps of John Barry. JB would often use his main theme in different ways through the score (eg, here's TMWTGG used for action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzrfJYIkdMQ  and as a love theme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVaOrA5twbo). There's more than one way to skin a pussy, so he used other approaches too- OHMSS works fine as an action theme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkWX5Wo-Xao but he composed a separate love theme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t_pg2cpps4.
Arnold did write a love theme for CR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llUDPIvOSRc but didn't use it as extensively as YKMN.

All good points...and thanks for breaking them down...I do have a sense that Arnold wasn't happy at not getting the theme tune gig so didn't bother to incorporate AWTD into his score...or it may just have been too late for him to do so...I still love the song though...it 'fits' the movie beautifully for me... ajb007/martini

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

31

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

Sir Miles wrote:

thanks for breaking them down...I do have a sense that Arnold wasn't happy at not getting the theme tune gig

ajb007/cheers  Oh, I could waffle on about this sort of stuff endlessly- some would say I already do. And once again, Arnold was following Barry's lead re the theme tune gig (one of the reasons JB quit).

Imaginary phone call:
MGW: Hi John, it's Michael. We'd like you to do the music for our next picture Tomorrow Never Dies.
JB: Sure thing, Michael, I'll start on the theme song right away.
MGW: Ah... we only want you to write the score, the marketing people want Sheryl Crow to write and sing the song.
JB: I don't mind who you get to sing it, but I should be writing it- you know, like I did for GF, TB, YOLT, DAF etc etc.
MGW: No, she gets to write the song.
JB: Then let me give you David Arnold's phone number....

32

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

Thunderpussy wrote:

I have grown to like QOS, over many, many viewings. Which I feel is
Quite an achievement, as my starting point was sheer unbridled hatred !  ajb007/lol
The problems with the writers strike is well documented, so perhaps having
a professional screenwriter, give it a final polish would have greatly helped.
It has indeed many good points, with a few weaknesses, it really is a case of
" What might have been ".   ajb007/martini

I just get sea sick every time I try to watch it.  So I don't bother.  I thought AVTAK would never be beaten as the worse Bond film ever, unfortunately for me QOS holds the wooden spoon of the series to date.

FRWl, OHMSS, CR, TSWLM, GF, SF, TLD,  LTK, TND, DN, FYEO, OP,TWINE, GE, LALD, TMWTGG, QOS, SPECTRE, YOLT, TB, MR, DAF, DAD, AVTAK.

"Do you expect me to talk?  "No Mister Bond I expect you to die"

33

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

Do you think that like OHMSS, QOS will receive more Care and Attention in the coming Years?

1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger

34

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

I do think that QOS was a little rushed in to production, they had a fantastic hit
With CR, and needed a follow up. Sadly because of the writers strike, the script
What there was of it had to be completed or tweaked by actor and director. So
Fair play to them for doing their best.
Even Mark Gatiss in the recent TV programme on the Bonds said that Bond was
More thug that agent in QOS.  Don't know if I totally agree with that  but it is very
Different in tone and style to CR.
  I think QOS will continue to devide opinions for years,  it is as many have described
it " The Marmite" Bond. Strangely from reading the Fleming novels again, I can now
Understand the defenders of the film saying it was intact " very Bond" ,  This didn't
Make sense to me until I went back to those wonderful books. Because yes there is
Plenty of Bond in it,  not the traditional film 007 but more of the literary,  Fleming agent
who regularly had to kill on behalf of the government,  Fleming even states that Bond
took no pleasure in killing but he did take a pride in doing it well, almost shutting his mind
down to the horrors he had to inflict.
  I doubt it will be in my top five Bonds but it is now  somewhere in the middle of the pack.

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

35

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

Very well said  ajb007/martini

1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger

36

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

Barbel wrote:
Sir Miles wrote:

thanks for breaking them down...I do have a sense that Arnold wasn't happy at not getting the theme tune gig

ajb007/cheers  Oh, I could waffle on about this sort of stuff endlessly- some would say I already do. And once again, Arnold was following Barry's lead re the theme tune gig (one of the reasons JB quit).

Imaginary phone call:
MGW: Hi John, it's Michael. We'd like you to do the music for our next picture Tomorrow Never Dies.
JB: Sure thing, Michael, I'll start on the theme song right away.
MGW: Ah... we only want you to write the score, the marketing people want Sheryl Crow to write and sing the song.
JB: I don't mind who you get to sing it, but I should be writing it- you know, like I did for GF, TB, YOLT, DAF etc etc.
MGW: No, she gets to write the song.
JB: Then let me give you David Arnold's phone number....

Oh I enjoy your wafflings  ajb007/lol

And I would assume that 'imaginary' phone call to be pretty accurate !  ajb007/amazed

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

37

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

AlphaOmegaSin wrote:

Do you think that like OHMSS, QOS will receive more Care and Attention in the coming Years?

OHMSS was not liked back in the day imo because Connery was not Bond and that's it pure and simple.

As a Bond film it has all the other elements necessary, plus the added bonus of it being based on the best Bond novel (imo).

Spectacular stunts, great cinematography, it was just missing Connery.

Now 35 years after the event, the fact that Connery isn't in it is no big deal, and folk now view it as the Bond film it is and should have been. 

QOS is a different kettle of fish.  The main reason I don't like it is the editing, pure and simple.

I would love them to re-edit into a format that doesn't try to be "Paul Greengrass-Bourne esq", then I may enjoy it.

Last edited by UnderwaterBattle007 (14th Jun 2015 22:28)

FRWl, OHMSS, CR, TSWLM, GF, SF, TLD,  LTK, TND, DN, FYEO, OP,TWINE, GE, LALD, TMWTGG, QOS, SPECTRE, YOLT, TB, MR, DAF, DAD, AVTAK.

"Do you expect me to talk?  "No Mister Bond I expect you to die"

38

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

Thunderpussy wrote:

I do think that QOS was a little rushed in to production, they had a fantastic hit
With CR, and needed a follow up. Sadly because of the writers strike, the script
What there was of it had to be completed or tweaked by actor and director. So
Fair play to them for doing their best.
Even Mark Gatiss in the recent TV programme on the Bonds said that Bond was
More thug that agent in QOS.  Don't know if I totally agree with that  but it is very
Different in tone and style to CR.
  I think QOS will continue to devide opinions for years,  it is as many have described
it " The Marmite" Bond. Strangely from reading the Fleming novels again, I can now
Understand the defenders of the film saying it was intact " very Bond" ,  This didn't
Make sense to me until I went back to those wonderful books. Because yes there is
Plenty of Bond in it,  not the traditional film 007 but more of the literary,  Fleming agent
who regularly had to kill on behalf of the government,  Fleming even states that Bond
took no pleasure in killing but he did take a pride in doing it well, almost shutting his mind
down to the horrors he had to inflict.
  I doubt it will be in my top five Bonds but it is now  somewhere in the middle of the pack.

Slightly off topic but backing up the point that in the novels Bond kills but he doesn't like killing.

I watched American Sniper which is based on a true story last night.

Theres a scene where the main character Chris Kyle is presented with a scenario that he may have to kill a small child and the emotions involved in that horrendous situation. 

Now I won't tell you whether he does or doesn't kill the child because I don't want to spoil that film if you haven't seen it.

I thought of Bond from the novels as soon as I saw the scene.

FRWl, OHMSS, CR, TSWLM, GF, SF, TLD,  LTK, TND, DN, FYEO, OP,TWINE, GE, LALD, TMWTGG, QOS, SPECTRE, YOLT, TB, MR, DAF, DAD, AVTAK.

"Do you expect me to talk?  "No Mister Bond I expect you to die"

39

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

This is exactly it.  While Bond is a dark and gritty character, he wouldn't travel 50 miles in a desert to kill a crazed faux-environmentalist if he didn't need to and he could be lounging at a dinner party smoking a cigar instead.

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Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

Bond is motivated by his Duty.  ajb007/wink

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

41

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

Absolutely_Cart wrote:

This is exactly it.  While Bond is a dark and gritty character, he wouldn't travel 50 miles in a desert to kill a crazed faux-environmentalist if he didn't need to and he could be lounging at a dinner party smoking a cigar instead.

Roger Moore smoked cigars, not James Bond.

42

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

You know what I mean though.

43

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

I think Moore had stopped smoking Cigarettes by the 70's?

1.On Her Majesties Secret Service 2.The Living Daylights 3.license To Kill 4.The Spy Who Loved Me 5.Goldfinger

44

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

Also I think, smoking was beginning to be frowned upon in movies. It could
Land your film with a higher censorship rating.  One of the things I find funny
Now are films and programmes set in the 60s and 70s.  Like the fantastic spy
Show from the BBC " The Game" in which, basically, everyone smoked, all the time
and everywhere.  ajb007/lol rooms thick with smoke.

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

45

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

Absolutely_Cart wrote:

You know what I mean though.

Fleming hated cigars and would not be doing either thing you mentioned.

46

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

one problem for me is that basically all the Daniel Craig movies so far showed Bonds emotional problems
I kinda miss the days where Bond himself stood for a tough secret agent noone can come close to

"You see Mr.Bond, you can't kill my dreams...but my dreams can kill you.Time to face destiny" - "Time to face gravity"

47

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

We're in a different period.  At one time, it was considered manly to keep your problems to yourself, steel yourself against the world, and persevere, making it as best you can.  The world wars and those that followed had taught that ordinary men could do extraordinary things, and problems -- some of them seemingly overwhelming -- were just a part of life, so deal with it.

The Bond we see the first 20 years is very much this character.  He is not invincible or unemotional, but he channels his energy into what he can do rather than can't, and seeks pleasure in the things that afford it in life rather than wallows in the pain and misery, which is where the scales have now tipped.

Fast forward to current times.  Today, the heroes must all be emotionally damaged, and wear those emotions on their sleeves.  There is a diagnosis for anything that ails a person, emotionally or otherwise, and the idea that life is "tough" has been supplanted by the idea that we are all wounded in some way and how we deal with it is a measurement of our depth of character.  In fact, some people equate this with character period.

A good example of this is how Bond faces things at the end of the book Casino Royale. Obviously, he is ripped up, but he will swallow this, perhaps in anger, to supplant his grief.  In the film, though, we have to see additional scenes that suggest this is not enough.  "Manning up" in the book is replaced with "being sensitive" in the film, or at least the pretense of it.  That is the contemporary paradigm.  Had they made one more Bond film with Craig in that four-year gap, we might be past the point to have to keep dealing with it, but as we're not and the Bond films re aping the Dark Knight . . .

48

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

Up until 1897, it was illegal for a British man to express any emotion
In public and up until 1903, for a man to cry in public, was immediate
Deportation to one of the colonies, usually Australia. 
  The stiff upper lip was the way things were done, emotions were like port
To be bottled up for 40 or 50 years then passed on to the next generation.
   Sadly today lead characters in film and TV  have to show their emotions
So the audience can " connect" with them I.E. ....
... The six million dollar man, was a great action sci-fi show about an injured
Astronaut. Who gets rebuilt with super artificial legs, an arm and an eye. In
The old show any trauma etc was glossed over but be assured today well get
Hours of his inner anguish and turmoil,over being " part machine" .
I myself hold to those great old Victorian ideas of never showing emotion and
Keeping a stiff upper lip, no blubbing at child birth or  getting married.  Perhaps
A tear on the death of a beloved Dog, but that's to be understood. We are a nation
Of animal lovers.
So please Keep the emotional baggage to a minimum, there was enough in QOS, let's have
No more in Spectre.  ajb007/smile. After all we are not French !

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

49

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

Thunderpussy wrote:

Up until 1897, it was illegal for a British man to express any emotion
In public and up until 1903, for a man to cry in public, was immediate
Deportation to one of the colonies, usually Australia. 
  The stiff upper lip was the way things were done, emotions were like port
To be bottled up for 40 or 50 years then passed on to the next generation.
   Sadly today lead characters in film and TV  have to show their emotions
So the audience can " connect" with them I.E. ....
... The six million dollar man, was a great action sci-fi show about an injured
Astronaut. Who gets rebuilt with super artificial legs, an arm and an eye. In
The old show any trauma etc was glossed over but be assured today well get
Hours of his inner anguish and turmoil,over being " part machine" .
I myself hold to those great old Victorian ideas of never showing emotion and
Keeping a stiff upper lip, no blubbing at child birth or  getting married.  Perhaps
A tear on the death of a beloved Dog, but that's to be understood. We are a nation
Of animal lovers.
So please Keep the emotional baggage to a minimum, there was enough in QOS, let's have
No more in Spectre.  ajb007/smile. After all we are not French !

00 agents having emotions is illogical. They need to be Vulcans!

I feel like I can connect better with Connery's and Moore's Bonds, who don't show emotion, than Craig's Bond who does. Or basically, I'd rather not connect with Bond on an emotional level. There are enough other movies that can do that.

50

Re: Pros and Cons: Quantum of Solace

Gassy Man wrote:

We're in a different period.

The violent emotionally damaged brooding male hero has become an archetype over the past 10 years in action films and video games.  Craig was one of the progenitors, but Eon better abandon this ship before Craig gets lampooned.