26

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

Gassy Man wrote:


All they had to do was rework the dialogue so the conversation mentioned Vesper.  It could have been as simple as:

White:  He made us push Vesper too hard.  If it means anything, I opposed it.
Bond:  Your honor as a gentleman?
White:  See for yourself. There are tapes -- 
Bond:  It doesn't matter now.

Then, when we get to the scene later in the hotel, Bond's decision not to watch the tape takes on even greater meaning.  Blofeld's "author of all your pain" line takes on greater resonance.

EON needs to give you work IMHO.
ajb007/martini

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

27

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

dak212us wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:

Of course motivation matters.  That's what is the basis for character.  What you describe is simply the mechanics of plot, which may or may not resonate based on the motivations of the characters.  Otherwise, it's just an obligatory scene to move the plot forward.

Exactly! A plot point to introduce the Bond girl and eventually finding the location of a hotel in tangier becomes more important than the character moment of Bond resolving things with White himself.

The character of White is thereby made weaker for a plot point, Bond's character is made weaker/robotic for a plot point.
And finding Swan and the hotel in Tangier isn't really that important because it's clear that Blopheld wants Bond to get to that site anyway.

And how is White not a killer all of a sudden just because he mentions women and children? He's called an assassin in the film and gives Le Chiffre a very skilled single tap to the fourhead from about 30 ft. in Casino Royal. Either way, extortion destroys lives. That's kind of what makes it so effective for people like Mr. White.

He deserved "Death to wear a familiar face". That's the only decent line in the scene. Unfortunately his death should have come from Bond and it didn't.

And I'm not saying I would have talked about Vesper in that scene. That scene and White's connection to Swan shouldn't have existed. That whole scene sat at the core of a badly written film. The scene should've been scrapped in its entirety along with the wasted Blopheld is my brother sub plot.

ajb007/cheers

28

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

chrisisall wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:


All they had to do was rework the dialogue so the conversation mentioned Vesper.  It could have been as simple as:

White:  He made us push Vesper too hard.  If it means anything, I opposed it.
Bond:  Your honor as a gentleman?
White:  See for yourself. There are tapes -- 
Bond:  It doesn't matter now.

Then, when we get to the scene later in the hotel, Bond's decision not to watch the tape takes on even greater meaning.  Blofeld's "author of all your pain" line takes on greater resonance.

EON needs to give you work IMHO.
ajb007/martini

That's very kind.  Not that I think what I wrote was remarkable, but I'm actually writing an adventure spy novel and in my spare time a dissertation, haha.

29

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

Gassy Man wrote:

That's very kind.

No, it's just that that small simple exchange will stay in my mind forever now, and enhance my actual viewing experience. Thanks. ajb007/cheers

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

30

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

chrisisall wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:

That's very kind.

No, it's just that that small simple exchange will stay in my mind forever now, and enhance my actual viewing experience. Thanks. ajb007/cheers

ajb007/cheers

31

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

Gassy Man wrote:
chrisisall wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:


All they had to do was rework the dialogue so the conversation mentioned Vesper.  It could have been as simple as:

White:  He made us push Vesper too hard.  If it means anything, I opposed it.
Bond:  Your honor as a gentleman?
White:  See for yourself. There are tapes -- 
Bond:  It doesn't matter now.

Then, when we get to the scene later in the hotel, Bond's decision not to watch the tape takes on even greater meaning.  Blofeld's "author of all your pain" line takes on greater resonance.

EON needs to give you work IMHO.
ajb007/martini

That's very kind.  Not that I think what I wrote was remarkable, but I'm actually writing an adventure spy novel and in my spare time a dissertation, haha.

That really is pretty good work, Gassy. Let's crash Eon's doorstep and write them a script  ajb007/shifty

"Blood & Ashes"...AVAILABLE on Amazon.co.uk: Get 'Jaded': Blood & Ashes: The Debut Oscar Jade Thriller
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM

32

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

Haha, just let me know.

33

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

Gassy Man wrote:
Sir Miles wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:

But what do they resolve, other than Bond is going to watch over White's daughter?  Did they even bother to mention Vesper in any meaningful way?  The scene just seemed there to introduce a plot point -- nothing remarkable.

I can't really see them discussing Vesper - I mean, it's a two and half HOUR film - NOT two and a half DAYS  ajb007/lol
They can't possibly 'fit' everything in...

Oh, come on now.  They had time for that cheesiness about White being upset that Blofeld went after women and children . . . when Quantum not only went after Vesper, when it's implied White killed Le Chiffre's girlfriend, and when Quantum bankrolled terrorists and cut off an entire nation's water supply, both of which affect women and children.  If they had time for such an obviously hollow line, they could have worked in dialogue about Vesper.

All they had to do was rework the dialogue so the conversation mentioned Vesper.  It could have been as simple as:

White:  He made us push Vesper too hard.  If it means anything, I opposed it.
Bond:  Your honor as a gentleman?
White:  See for yourself. There are tapes -- 
Bond:  It doesn't matter now.

Then, when we get to the scene later in the hotel, Bond's decision not to watch the tape takes on even greater meaning.  Blofeld's "author of all your pain" line takes on greater resonance.

Sorry...doesn't work for me at all...Vesper wasn't an 'innocent'...he'd have no compunction about leaving her to her fate...

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

34

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

I am also pretty sure that we'll see in a future movie, what's on that tape.....

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

35

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

Sir Miles wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:
Sir Miles wrote:

I can't really see them discussing Vesper - I mean, it's a two and half HOUR film - NOT two and a half DAYS  ajb007/lol
They can't possibly 'fit' everything in...

Oh, come on now.  They had time for that cheesiness about White being upset that Blofeld went after women and children . . . when Quantum not only went after Vesper, when it's implied White killed Le Chiffre's girlfriend, and when Quantum bankrolled terrorists and cut off an entire nation's water supply, both of which affect women and children.  If they had time for such an obviously hollow line, they could have worked in dialogue about Vesper.

All they had to do was rework the dialogue so the conversation mentioned Vesper.  It could have been as simple as:

White:  He made us push Vesper too hard.  If it means anything, I opposed it.
Bond:  Your honor as a gentleman?
White:  See for yourself. There are tapes -- 
Bond:  It doesn't matter now.

Then, when we get to the scene later in the hotel, Bond's decision not to watch the tape takes on even greater meaning.  Blofeld's "author of all your pain" line takes on greater resonance.

Sorry...doesn't work for me at all...Vesper wasn't an 'innocent'...he'd have no compunction about leaving her to her fate...

This doesn't surprise me.  ajb007/rolleyes  But how does this exchange make Vesper an "innocent"?  It just suggests that White didn't think they needed to go that far to get what they wanted.  From Blofeld's point of view, though, it was perfect to push her to the point of suicide and hurting Bond in the process.  White's opposition for practical purposes wouldn't matter to Blofeld, who would see it as disloyalty, and thus help lead to his elimination of White later.

36

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

Gassy Man wrote:

This doesn't surprise me.  ajb007/rolleyes

Because ????  ajb007/insane

Gassy Man wrote:

But how does this exchange make Vesper an "innocent"?  It just suggests that White didn't think they needed to go that far to get what they wanted.  From Blofeld's point of view, though, it was perfect to push her to the point of suicide and hurting Bond in the process.  White's opposition for practical purposes wouldn't matter to Blofeld, who would see it as disloyalty, and thus help lead to his elimination of White later.

Pardon ?
Did I say it did ?  ajb007/insane
You don't explain why White would care...which doesn't surprise me  ajb007/rolleyes

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

37

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

A scene is supposed to do one or more of three things:

1. Move the plot forward;

2. Demonstrate character;

3. Reflect theme.

The scene with Mr. White does all three.

1. It provides the "bridge" to Madeleine, but it also causes Bond to think about who he is. Will he also end up alone in an abandoned cottage waiting for death to come wearing a familiar face? This sets up the ending of the film where Bond decides to walk away from his role as assassin for Queen and Country.

2. It tells us something about the character of the two men. Mr. White was obviously a bad man but he loves his daughter and this spark of humanity provides a connection between Bond and Mr. White. Bond is willing to do anything to complete his mission, even trust a man he hates. By the end of the movie he  has re-thought this single-minded attitude toward life. 

3. Finally, the theme of the movie is trust, which brings us full circle to CR. By the end of the movie Bond has learned to trust Swann. The theme is demonstrated in this scene when Bond hands Mr. White a loaded gun, trusting that White's love of his daughter and wanting Bond to protect her will override any other considerations.

38

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

Gala Brand wrote:

By the end of the movie he  has re-thought this single-minded attitude toward life.

Great post, and this^ is a major reason to love the film, we see some true character evolution!

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

39

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

Gala Brand wrote:

A scene is supposed to do one or more of three things:

1. Move the plot forward;

2. Demonstrate character;

3. Reflect theme.

The scene with Mr. White does all three.

1. It provides the "bridge" to Madeleine, but it also causes Bond to think about who he is. Will he also end up alone in an abandoned cottage waiting for death to come wearing a familiar face? This sets up the ending of the film where Bond decides to walk away from his role as assassin for Queen and Country.

2. It tells us something about the character of the two men. Mr. White was obviously a bad man but he loves his daughter and this spark of humanity provides a connection between Bond and Mr. White. Bond is willing to do anything to complete his mission, even trust a man he hates. By the end of the movie he  has re-thought this single-minded attitude toward life. 

3. Finally, the theme of the movie is trust, which brings us full circle to CR. By the end of the movie Bond has learned to trust Swann. The theme is demonstrated in this scene when Bond hands Mr. White a loaded gun, trusting that White's love of his daughter and wanting Bond to protect her will override any other considerations.

+1 this is what I got from the scene too.

"Whoever she was, I must have scared the living daylights out of her." & "Tell mother I died game."
CR/QoS, TLD, DN, GE, TSWLM, LTK, TND, TWiNE, TMWTGG, TB
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40

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

Sir Miles wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:

This doesn't surprise me.  ajb007/rolleyes

Because ????  ajb007/insane

Gassy Man wrote:

But how does this exchange make Vesper an "innocent"?  It just suggests that White didn't think they needed to go that far to get what they wanted.  From Blofeld's point of view, though, it was perfect to push her to the point of suicide and hurting Bond in the process.  White's opposition for practical purposes wouldn't matter to Blofeld, who would see it as disloyalty, and thus help lead to his elimination of White later.

Pardon ?
Did I say it did ?  ajb007/insane
You don't explain why White would care...which doesn't surprise me  ajb007/rolleyes

Then there really isn't anything to talk about.  We'll leave it at that.

41

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

Having Bond chat with Mr. White about Vesper wouldn't have served any purpose.

The film is about Bond's evolution from a blunt instrument to becoming a fully realized human being. This happens in part through his relationship with Swann, a woman who can understand what it means to be an assassin.

The movie is about moving forward. Reliving his time with Vesper would be a step back.  That's why it's important that he ignores the Vesper videotape.

42

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

I enjoyed the scene, two men who hate each other, have to make a deal
to help each other  ajb007/martini  Bond gets what he wants, information. While Mr White
gets, someone to finish his work, and bring down Blofeld.  ajb007/smile

"Let his death be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one."

43

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

But they already relive the time.  She's in the credits animation, and there's the issue of the videotape.  And since White was integrally involved in her death -- and she texted Bond post mortem about him -- it's a lost moment of resolution.  One of the things I keep seeing from critics is how dumb the script is.  in this, I agree.  It has a lot of one-liners and a few good lines of dialogue, but on the whole, it's thin.  The rest of the film props it up rather than the other way around.  The "meat" people were looking for is not there and evidenced by all the missed opportunities, not the least of which is to give Blofeld more to do, too.

44

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

Gassy Man wrote:

But they already relive the time.  She's in the credits animation, and there's the issue of the videotape.  And since White was integrally involved in her death -- and she texted Bond post mortem about him -- it's a lost moment of resolution.  One of the things I keep seeing from critics is how dumb the script is.  in this, I agree.  It has a lot of one-liners and a few good lines of dialogue, but on the whole, it's thin.  The rest of the film props it up rather than the other way around.  The "meat" people were looking for is not there and evidenced by all the missed opportunities, not the least of which is to give Blofeld more to do, too.

I do agree the script is thin in places, mostly in failing to fully flesh out Blofeld and Swann. A little more polish and hard work on the script could've resulted in a truly great movie, not just a great Bond movie, but a great movie. It's a little bit of a missed opportunity, but still a very good film.

The reason characters from previous films, not just Vesper, are shown in the credits is that this movie is the culmination of the story arc that started in CR.

45

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

I agree, and thanks, Loeff.

Edited to eliminate a lack of comprehension on my part.  ajb007/martini

Last edited by Gassy Man (11th Nov 2015 01:36)

46

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

Thunderpussy wrote:

I enjoyed the scene, two men who hate each other, have to make a deal
to help each other  ajb007/martini  Bond gets what he wants, information. While Mr White
gets, someone to finish his work, and bring down Blofeld.  ajb007/smile

Blofeld always lives on somehow.  (for the next film(s) ) but are the next couple of Bond films going to have Blofeld
as the continuing villain,  or will they intoduce a new individual not connected to Spectre?

It could be the 1960s plots all over again.   Once you start Blofeld, only a legal injunction can stop his appearance !

Bleuville.

47

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

Gassy Man wrote:
Sir Miles wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:

This doesn't surprise me.  ajb007/rolleyes

Because ????  ajb007/insane

Gassy Man wrote:

But how does this exchange make Vesper an "innocent"?  It just suggests that White didn't think they needed to go that far to get what they wanted.  From Blofeld's point of view, though, it was perfect to push her to the point of suicide and hurting Bond in the process.  White's opposition for practical purposes wouldn't matter to Blofeld, who would see it as disloyalty, and thus help lead to his elimination of White later.

Pardon ?
Did I say it did ?  ajb007/insane
You don't explain why White would care...which doesn't surprise me  ajb007/rolleyes

Then there really isn't anything to talk about.  We'll leave it at that.

Ah...so you can't explain it...fair play to you for owning up  ajb007/martini

YNWA: Justice For The 96

The Joy Of 6

48

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

I would simply point toward Blofeld's remark that White had gotten 'weak.' I interpret this as a lifetime of death wearing one's spirit down, which would explain a possible epiphany on White's part: This is too much.

"Blood & Ashes"...AVAILABLE on Amazon.co.uk: Get 'Jaded': Blood & Ashes: The Debut Oscar Jade Thriller
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM

49

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

It still seems like uninspired writing, though, Loeff -- show the weakness rather than just tell.  Imagine if the Professor Dent scene in Dr. No had occurred with as clumsy a scene.  Dent comes to kill Bond, but even though the pillows are there, Dent never fires.  I guess we got fooled!  We see the gun, though, so I guess that's supposed to be enough to know Dent's intentions.  Bond then disarms Dent and proceeds to talk to him.  Instead of finding out anything relevant about how Bond deduced it would be him or that he works for some larger organization, they confine their discussion to talking about how Dent did not get tenure at his university.  He tells us all about his past and this one scholar there who never liked him.  Bond is fascinated, never really asking him about who sent Dent and why.  Then, instead of Dent grabbing for the gun and getting the drop on Bond, he lunges at Bond, they tussle, and the pistol goes off, wounding Dent, who in his delirious state, mutters the name "Dr. No."  Bond now knows he must seek out this Dr. No, advancing the plot.  No tension or real drama, but people walk out saying how interesting it was to learn about Dent, and so forth.

50

Re: Mr. White's change of heart (SPOILERS)

I was actually just defending your proposed dialogue above, Gassy  ajb007/wink White's 'weakness,' i.e. his empathy for Vesper is implied by your dialogue.

Tough room...

Last edited by Loeffelholz (10th Nov 2015 23:03)

"Blood & Ashes"...AVAILABLE on Amazon.co.uk: Get 'Jaded': Blood & Ashes: The Debut Oscar Jade Thriller
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM