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Topic: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

A lot of the main criticisms for Spectre come from the plot twist, and not many people are happy about it. However, I think there are some positives to be found from it.

1. It's not a plot twist.
A plot twist is a change in the story turns the story around. The reveal of Oberhauser being Blofeld, however, is not a plot twist, nor is the fact they used to be adoptive brothers. It doesn't change how the rest of the movie will turn out. It's a revelation of his new name and how he knows Bond.

2. The Blofeld name reveal means nothing to Bond.
Yeah, think about it. The reveal only means anything to the audience. The name means nothing to Bond, it's just another name. Therefore, it doesn't make a difference to him that this 'new' character Blofeld is his adoptive brother.

3. It makes Blofeld seem more psychopathic.
Blofeld has done all the events in the last three movies just to taunt Bond for being liked by Oberhauser's father more. That's just crazy.

4. He really isn't the Blofeld we know.
The Blofed we knew before this - he really was Blofeld. OBERHAUSER is the equivalent to the Blofeld decoys in DAF. His real name is not Blofeld. His name is OBERHAUSER, Blofeld is just a false identity.

5. It actually gives him a motivation.
Blofeld has no motive in the previous timeline. He just does what he does for money. Here, there's actually a reason why he does it, and big villains like Blofeld need a proper motive

6. It gives the character more depth.
Maybe it's not the best character backstory for Bond's arch enemy, but it does give him a backstory and that is what people want in modern movies

7. It makes up for the fact that there is no main villain plot in the movie.
Yeah, think about that. C's story of the surveillance programme is just a side plot. Blofeld doesn't actually have a big villain plan in this movie. The whole movie is just introducing the Blofeld character into the new timeline.

8. It finally debunks the codename theory and the belief that Craig's movies are not in a different timeline.
There are people who believe Craig's movies are in the same world as all the other movies. This puts that to rest once and for all, by reintroducing Blofeld and clealry showing this is a new timeline. It also debunks the codename theory like SF did as Blofeld was with Bond when he was a child.

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

MilleniumForce wrote:

8. It finally debunks the codename theory and the belief that Craig's movies are not in a different timeline.
There are people who believe Craig's movies are in the same world as all the other movies. This puts that to rest once and for all, by reintroducing Blofeld and clealry showing this is a new timeline. It also debunks the codename theory like SF did as Blofeld was with Bond when he was a child.

This is what I was looking forward to Spectre proving. There's now no way Craig's films could be prequels to the other Bonds, or have the other Bonds fitting between QOS and SF. There's no explanation for the gadgets in Bond's DB5 in SF, and people will just have to deal with it!

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Thank you MilleniumForce for making complete & utter sense of all this so succinctly! Best post I read all day! ajb007/cheers

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

ajb007/martini  Very interesting reading, plenty to think about.

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Skyfalls db5 was always tenuous given that bond won it in a poker game, it was just put in for the 50th anniversary I think.
It become quite clear Mendes doesn't consider continuity particularly relevant.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Chriscoop wrote:

It become quite clear Mendes doesn't consider continuity particularly relevant.

The main thing he & I share apparently. ajb007/bond

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

But have you been consistent in that view?  ajb007/biggrin

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Thunderpussy wrote:

But have you been consistent in that view?  ajb007/biggrin

I am consistent in my inconsistency.

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

MilleniumForce wrote:

6. It gives the character more depth.
Maybe it's not the best character backstory for Bond's arch enemy, but it does give him a backstory and that is what people want in modern movies

I don't think the desire for a backstory is a modern phenomenon; I can see that there is now a trend in films to make 'trivial' genres more like dramas (for example superhero films no longer being completely geeky). All decent actors will give their characters a backstory but I felt this one was too pat. I agree that the film's purpose is mainly to embed Blofeld into the Craig era as Skyfall embedded new M and the reintroduction of Q and Moneypenny. Q and Moneypenny only really came to life in Spectre so we won't really be able to judge long-term how well Blofeld will go down until we see the next film. It also means that hopefully all the elements are in place because Skyfall sets up for Spectre and Spectre sets up for the next film, so we really don't want another set-up movie.

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Yeah, how about a plain old Bond mission?

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Good reasons, MillenniumForce.  The Craig Quartet has entirely rebooted the entire Bond universe, and you provide some solid foundations for taking the new Blofeld on his own terms.

Vox clamantis in deserto

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Blofeld had to be introduced somehow, and bringing him into a backstory is as good a way as any I suppose, we never did get to the main man of quantum and that was left dangling, IMHO it would not have worked to have a Blofeld of old back anonymous,  sitting behind a desk,  as much as it adds suspense I was always waiting for a big reveal with the original Blofeld which was the reason behind never seeing his face, in the end there was no reason to hide his identity.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

The problem of Spectre was never the plot twist (that is not a plot twist). It is a constellation of missteps along the following lines:

a. The director and writers cannot conceal their belief that the Bond mythology has become irrelevant, and one must be apologetic about making/enjoying a movie about a hired government killer;
b. The film mistakes personal stakes for character depth, and character depth for intelligent writing (news-flash: emotional maturity and intelligence have nothing to do with dime psychology)
c. The villain's motive is offensively stupid, and already quite tired.

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

It wasn't really a twist at all. The "oh it was all me, James" was rather weak. No reaction from Bond, and no reasons really given by Blofeld. It could have been so cleverly been delivered, letting unravel things for themselves, but no

"it was all me"

"Oh, OK m8"

I actually really didn't like SPETRE and see it as the worst craig era film. CR > QoS > Skyfall > SPECTRE for me. Which is good, because I can then watch them in order.

"It is better to be as well dressed as possible to stave off, at least for a very little bit, the total collapse of civilization"

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Not a twist ,just "Luke I am your father" "Austin I am your brother" stupidity . ajb007/insane

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

sniperUK wrote:

Not a twist ,just "Luke I am your father" "Austin I am your brother" stupidity . ajb007/insane

I understand the comparison, but it's not really like that (for ME, anyway). ajb007/smile

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

chrisisall wrote:
sniperUK wrote:

Not a twist ,just "Luke I am your father" "Austin I am your brother" stupidity . ajb007/insane

I understand the comparison, but it's not really like that (for ME, anyway). ajb007/smile

For me, Blofed's connection to Bond is is like Dr. Evil being Austin Power's brother. And this was after Daniel Craig talked about all the things Bond couldn't do because of Austin Powers! The "No, I am your father" line from Star Wars still holds up.

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Matt S wrote:

The "No, I am your father" line from Star Wars still holds up.

Sidebar: there was a great exchange in the series Dark Angel concerning this:

MAX: About last night...

LYDECKER: Don’t remind me. I still feel sick.

MAX: Me, too. Got a bad feeling you were going to tell me...you were my...

LYDECKER: Father? I would never presume to pollute the gene pool.

MAX: I can’t tell you what a relief that is for me. I mean, what a cliché that’d be, huh?

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

I dont have a problem with Bond and Blofeld having been step brothers, its just the film fails to establish any kind of connection between them for me. Like others have alluded to, its throw away.

'...exceptionally fine shot...'

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

But could it be throwaway due to bonds nonchalance?  Making Blofeld appear more unhinged?

It was either that.....or the priesthood

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Lady Ice wrote:
MilleniumForce wrote:

6. It gives the character more depth.
Maybe it's not the best character backstory for Bond's arch enemy, but it does give him a backstory and that is what people want in modern movies

I don't think the desire for a backstory is a modern phenomenon; I can see that there is now a trend in films to make 'trivial' genres more like dramas (for example superhero films no longer being completely geeky). All decent actors will give their characters a backstory but I felt this one was too pat. I agree that the film's purpose is mainly to embed Blofeld into the Craig era as Skyfall embedded new M and the reintroduction of Q and Moneypenny. Q and Moneypenny only really came to life in Spectre so we won't really be able to judge long-term how well Blofeld will go down until we see the next film. It also means that hopefully all the elements are in place because Skyfall sets up for Spectre and Spectre sets up for the next film, so we really don't want another set-up movie.

Agreed. I am really tired of the stepping stone approach going on for so long. OK,  CR was about Bond becoming Bond, QoS was a major mistep ( I know it has its fans here but is derided in the wider world ) Skyfall seemed to reset  the template but SP has clumsily shoehorned irrelevant back story to make use of the fact that they can use Spectre again. Here's the thing, no one cares, Bond could not even remember it seemed. Even the title of this thread is apologetic  (not that bad) some are even suggesting that the irrelevance to Bond ,makes Blofeld even more sinister as a villain. We need knew thinking and not endless retreads Spectre was fun in its way, not a major triumph, and adds nothing of its own. No more please.

Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence- Ludwig Wittgenstein.

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Chriscoop wrote:

But could it be throwaway due to bonds nonchalance?  Making Blofeld appear more unhinged?

Yeah, it's like Bond was thinking "I don't even bloody remember you..."

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

chrisisall wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:

But could it be throwaway due to bonds nonchalance?  Making Blofeld appear more unhinged?

Yeah, it's like Bond was thinking "I don't even bloody remember you..."

Exactly. If it doesn't matter to Bond, why should it matter to us?

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Matt S wrote:
chrisisall wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:

But could it be throwaway due to bonds nonchalance?  Making Blofeld appear more unhinged?

Yeah, it's like Bond was thinking "I don't even bloody remember you..."

Exactly. If it doesn't matter to Bond, why should it matter to us?

That is my take on it anyway, and this way it makes Blofeld obsessing over it for all those years the one with ALL the issues.
I like it this way,  even down to the part in the old mi6 hq when bond sees Blofeld's injury... Bond is mocking and kind of "OK whatever you fruit loop" to the "my scars will heal" statement.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Chriscoop wrote:
Matt S wrote:
chrisisall wrote:

Yeah, it's like Bond was thinking "I don't even bloody remember you..."

Exactly. If it doesn't matter to Bond, why should it matter to us?

That is my take on it anyway, and this way it makes Blofeld obsessing over it for all those years the one with ALL the issues.
I like it this way,  even down to the part in the old mi6 hq when bond sees Blofeld's injury... Bond is mocking and kind of "OK whatever you fruit loop" to the "my scars will heal" statement.

But Bond's carefree attitude makes Blofeld seem harmless. It just seems like a feud between two brothers, where one is frustrated and the other doesn't care. The fued would be much more interesting from Blofeld's side.