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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Which is ridiculous to say the least. I cannot believe the people behind that decision could ever think that was a good idea? Unless ofcourse they are courting controversy?

Guess they are trying to give themselves a better chance of winning an Oscar *


* topical joke there ajb007/biggrin

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Revs1972 wrote:

Which is ridiculous to say the least. I cannot believe the people behind that decision could ever think that was a good idea? Unless ofcourse they are courting controversy?

Guess they are trying to give themselves a better chance of winning an Oscar *


* topical joke there ajb007/biggrin

ajb007/lol yes that same thought crossed my mind too! Isnt it the same Oscars committee that nominated twelve years a slave for every award going?? I also just can't help wondering if all the best performances this year were from white artists? And if performances were nominated purely based on skin colour doesn't that do everyone a disservice?

It was either that.....or the priesthood

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Just like the academy, they'd rather give an Oscar nomination to a White man
Playing a Black man. Than give a Black actor the award in the first place.  ajb007/lol

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

54

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Matt S wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:

On the basis that James bond can be played by a non Caucasian actor, does that mean a Caucasian actor could play Muhammed Ali in his biopic? Or would that create a terrible uproar? Some characters are very generic and could be played by any actor, but characters fictitious or not with a history and heritage should be played accordingly IMHO.

The issue typically brought up is that Muhammad Ali is a real person and James Bond is a fictional character. Real people cannot be changed all that much when portrayed in film, but fictional characters can. The question is, how much can a fictional character be changed and have it still be the same character? The basis for Bond is the character Fleming created. Would a non-Caucasian Bond who is otherwise just like Fleming's character be more or less valid than Roger Moore's James Bond? And both could be equally invalid.

Yes but a fictional character with a backstory and heritage, similarly as with marvel characters they are based on comics and drawings and descriptions. I've said before there most definitely could be a black or non white 007, but he or she can't be James bond.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

55

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Chriscoop wrote:
Matt S wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:

On the basis that James bond can be played by a non Caucasian actor, does that mean a Caucasian actor could play Muhammed Ali in his biopic? Or would that create a terrible uproar? Some characters are very generic and could be played by any actor, but characters fictitious or not with a history and heritage should be played accordingly IMHO.

The issue typically brought up is that Muhammad Ali is a real person and James Bond is a fictional character. Real people cannot be changed all that much when portrayed in film, but fictional characters can. The question is, how much can a fictional character be changed and have it still be the same character? The basis for Bond is the character Fleming created. Would a non-Caucasian Bond who is otherwise just like Fleming's character be more or less valid than Roger Moore's James Bond? And both could be equally invalid.

Yes but a fictional character with a backstory and heritage, similarly as with marvel characters they are based on comics and drawings and descriptions. I've said before there most definitely could be a black or non white 007, but he or she can't be James bond.

I agree. James Bond is a very specific character, and his ethnicity is one part of that. But many parts of what defined Fleming's Bond have been thrown out, particularly with Moore's Bond. Do you think some things can be thrown out but not others? As for Marvel, Nick Fury's race was changed. But Nick Fury has never been the character James Bond has been.

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Matt S wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:
Matt S wrote:

The issue typically brought up is that Muhammad Ali is a real person and James Bond is a fictional character. Real people cannot be changed all that much when portrayed in film, but fictional characters can. The question is, how much can a fictional character be changed and have it still be the same character? The basis for Bond is the character Fleming created. Would a non-Caucasian Bond who is otherwise just like Fleming's character be more or less valid than Roger Moore's James Bond? And both could be equally invalid.

Yes but a fictional character with a backstory and heritage, similarly as with marvel characters they are based on comics and drawings and descriptions. I've said before there most definitely could be a black or non white 007, but he or she can't be James bond.

I agree. James Bond is a very specific character, and his ethnicity is one part of that. But many parts of what defined Fleming's Bond have been thrown out, particularly with Moore's Bond. Do you think some things can be thrown out but not others? As for Marvel, Nick Fury's race was changed. But Nick Fury has never been the character James Bond has been.

I think sometimes within films some aspects have to change and lines do get blurred, the films have to stay current and also stay profitable, such as Daniel Craig being too blonde etc, I think sir Roger flirted with blondeness now and then as Bond first, things like that are quite minor, and let's be honest bonds persona has changed also but physically he's still identifiable. Sorry for my naivety Matt but I'm unfamiliar with nick fury, I was thinking more along the lines of spiderman, batman, superman x men etc ( i know also DC comics) but it wouldn't right to have spiderman dressed in a pink and white outfit just because.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

57

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

If Spidey was fighting in a Blancmange factory, I'd want to see
Him in Pink and white, for some camouflage.  ajb007/wink

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

58

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Chriscoop wrote:
Matt S wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:

Yes but a fictional character with a backstory and heritage, similarly as with marvel characters they are based on comics and drawings and descriptions. I've said before there most definitely could be a black or non white 007, but he or she can't be James bond.

I agree. James Bond is a very specific character, and his ethnicity is one part of that. But many parts of what defined Fleming's Bond have been thrown out, particularly with Moore's Bond. Do you think some things can be thrown out but not others? As for Marvel, Nick Fury's race was changed. But Nick Fury has never been the character James Bond has been.

I think sometimes within films some aspects have to change and lines do get blurred, the films have to stay current and also stay profitable, such as Daniel Craig being too blonde etc, I think sir Roger flirted with blondeness now and then as Bond first, things like that are quite minor, and let's be honest bonds persona has changed also but physically he's still identifiable. Sorry for my naivety Matt but I'm unfamiliar with nick fury, I was thinking more along the lines of spiderman, batman, superman x men etc ( i know also DC comics) but it wouldn't right to have spiderman dressed in a pink and white outfit just because.

Nick Fury is played by Samuel L. Jackson in the Marvel movies, but he was originally white. Spiderman has worn other costumes, but they had reasons. But I get your point about not doing something different just because. If Bond was not Caucasian, I can't think of any reason for that.

59

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Matt S wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:
Matt S wrote:

I agree. James Bond is a very specific character, and his ethnicity is one part of that. But many parts of what defined Fleming's Bond have been thrown out, particularly with Moore's Bond. Do you think some things can be thrown out but not others? As for Marvel, Nick Fury's race was changed. But Nick Fury has never been the character James Bond has been.

I think sometimes within films some aspects have to change and lines do get blurred, the films have to stay current and also stay profitable, such as Daniel Craig being too blonde etc, I think sir Roger flirted with blondeness now and then as Bond first, things like that are quite minor, and let's be honest bonds persona has changed also but physically he's still identifiable. Sorry for my naivety Matt but I'm unfamiliar with nick fury, I was thinking more along the lines of spiderman, batman, superman x men etc ( i know also DC comics) but it wouldn't right to have spiderman dressed in a pink and white outfit just because.

Nick Fury is played by Samuel L. Jackson in the Marvel movies, but he was originally white. Spiderman has worn other costumes, but they had reasons. But I get your point about not doing something different just because. If Bond was not Caucasian, I can't think of any reason for that.

Not a huge marvel fan I'm afraid Matt,
If bond hadn't been so described then anyone of any race could play him, as with Jeffrey Deavers Lincoln rhyme character, I read all the books and no reference is made to his appearance other than his disability, anyone could have played him and the brilliant Denzel Washington did and in a wheelchair too. I was half expecting the film to have the character walking about...which would have been just as bad as James bonds ethnic origins being changed.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

60

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Just reading some of the references above , yes Nick Fury could be played by a man of any race, whereas Bond , for me , is Caucasian . With note to Samuel L Jackson, could you imagine a Caucasian playing Shaft ?? Just wouldn't work
Love the Lincoln Rhyme series btw

61

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Revs1972 wrote:

Just reading some of the references above , yes Nick Fury could be played by a man of any race, whereas Bond , for me , is Caucasian . With note to Samuel L Jackson, could you imagine a Caucasian playing Shaft ?? Just wouldn't work
Love the Lincoln Rhyme series btw

ajb007/cheers

It was either that.....or the priesthood

62

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Chriscoop wrote:
Matt S wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:

I think sometimes within films some aspects have to change and lines do get blurred, the films have to stay current and also stay profitable, such as Daniel Craig being too blonde etc, I think sir Roger flirted with blondeness now and then as Bond first, things like that are quite minor, and let's be honest bonds persona has changed also but physically he's still identifiable. Sorry for my naivety Matt but I'm unfamiliar with nick fury, I was thinking more along the lines of spiderman, batman, superman x men etc ( i know also DC comics) but it wouldn't right to have spiderman dressed in a pink and white outfit just because.

Nick Fury is played by Samuel L. Jackson in the Marvel movies, but he was originally white. Spiderman has worn other costumes, but they had reasons. But I get your point about not doing something different just because. If Bond was not Caucasian, I can't think of any reason for that.

Not a huge marvel fan I'm afraid Matt,

I'm not a huge Marvel fan either, but you're the one who brought it up.

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Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Just to sound a note of discontent to the proceedings, I don't have
a problem with any actor playing Bond, so long as he's good enough.
His skin colour, is of no consequence to me. I've always mentioned
Adrian Lester, as one of my possible 007s. A very suave  actor.   ajb007/martini
Sadly now too old for Bond.

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

64

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Matt S wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:
Matt S wrote:

Nick Fury is played by Samuel L. Jackson in the Marvel movies, but he was originally white. Spiderman has worn other costumes, but they had reasons. But I get your point about not doing something different just because. If Bond was not Caucasian, I can't think of any reason for that.

Not a huge marvel fan I'm afraid Matt,

I'm not a huge Marvel fan either, but you're the one who brought it up.

Purely as an example of established fictional characters.... But touche old boy, touche  ajb007/martini

It was either that.....or the priesthood

65

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

M- Bond, you seem different somehow...
Bond- Yo momma.

ajb007/crap

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

66

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Well this thread's gotten kind of gross.

67

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

HalfMonk HalfHitman wrote:

Well this thread's gotten kind of gross.

It's just lost its way.

The Bond 'Verse is ever changing, so relationships within the Bond cannon will too. SPECTRE's retcons are fine with me, as change is the only (and as it happens, necessary) constant in the Bond franchise. ajb007/cheers

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

68

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

chrisisall wrote:
HalfMonk HalfHitman wrote:

Well this thread's gotten kind of gross.

It's just lost its way.

The Bond 'Verse is ever changing, so relationships within the Bond cannon will too. SPECTRE's retcons are fine with me, as change is the only (and as it happens, necessary) constant in the Bond franchise. ajb007/cheers

My only point was that the Codename Theory is rubbish...until some change inexorably puts it on the table, and in play.

"Blood & Ashes"...AVAILABLE on Amazon.co.uk: Get 'Jaded': Blood & Ashes: The Debut Oscar Jade Thriller
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM

69

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Loeffelholz wrote:

My only point was that the Codename Theory is rubbish

Quite. ajb007/biggrin

Dalton & Connery rule. Brozz was cool. Craig is too.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.QOS 4.DN 5.GF/GE 6.SP 7.FRWL 8.TB/TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT

70

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

There's a code name theory ?   ajb007/biggrin

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

71

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

HalfMonk HalfHitman wrote:

Well this thread's gotten kind of gross.

Apologies if any of my comments have offended you and also for contributing to taking this thread off topic. My bad

It was either that.....or the priesthood

72

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Loeffelholz wrote:

My only point was that the Codename Theory is rubbish...until some change inexorably puts it on the table, and in play.

I have a sad suspicion that, due in part to our current, continuity-obsessed culture, when Craig hangs it up the next guy will indeed be introduced as an inheritor of the "James Bond" code name. I seriously hope I'm wrong, though!

73

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

HalfMonk HalfHitman wrote:
Loeffelholz wrote:

My only point was that the Codename Theory is rubbish...until some change inexorably puts it on the table, and in play.

I have a sad suspicion that, due in part to our current, continuity-obsessed culture, when Craig hangs it up the next guy will indeed be introduced as an inheritor of the "James Bond" code name. I seriously hope I'm wrong, though!

I wouldn't lose sleep over that suspicion since there is absolutely no indication that it might become a reality.

74

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

It's just a forecast/hunch. It will let them stick a 30 year-old in the role while keeping the supporting cast - something I don't think modern, literal-minded audiences are as apt to accept these days.

75

Re: SPECTRE - Why it's plot twist isn't that bad

Here's hoping they just change leads, keep the supporting cast, and keep on rolling...with standalone stories  ajb007/bond   ajb007/cheers

"Blood & Ashes"...AVAILABLE on Amazon.co.uk: Get 'Jaded': Blood & Ashes: The Debut Oscar Jade Thriller
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM