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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

walther p99 wrote:
Matt S wrote:
walther p99 wrote:

As for the "Bond sound", certain moments in SF's score delivered more of the "Bond sound" then both the CR and QOS scores to my ears.

SF's score delivered the Bond sound in an obvious way in a few brief moments, like Newman thinks they can makeup for his very un-Bond-like score. The CR score delivered the Bond sound in a more subtle way throughout more of the score. The Bond Theme isn't necessarily the Bond sound, but Newman could have used more of that too.

Absolutely, Newman deliver's some very brief moments of brilliant bombastic Bond music throughout SF (She's mine, deep water) which stick out amongst his ultra subdued minimalistic style, its a shame he didn't inject more moments like that into the score.

A good score needs more than just a certain number of Bondian moments. Moments are superficial. A film score is a single piece of music where the whole is worth more than the sum of its parts.

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

Matt S wrote:

A good score needs more than just a certain number of Bondian moments. Moments are superficial. A film score is a single piece of music where the whole is worth more than the sum of its parts.

Good point. Try listening to a CD of an entire Barry Bond score vs an entire Newman Bond score. The Barry score makes you feel like you just experienced the film again. The Newman score, not so much..... As Matt pointed out, the Newman scores are ok as generic action film scores with a few nice Bondian moments but really fall terribly short as complete Bond scores. Barry set the bar very high, with Arnold coming in a distant second but far ahead of anyone else.

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

I quite like newmans scores as their own entity, in the car driving.  But alongside the film they just don't deliver, the score should involve your senses more,  complementing what your eyes are seeing and newmans just dont have that. For me it actually detracts from the viewing pleasure, I get,  some pieces work better than others with a couple of standout moments. Arnolds scores have the ability to add tension or drama and drive action. Sequences.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

Chriscoop wrote:

I quite like newmans scores as their own entity, in the car driving.  But alongside the film they just don't deliver, the score should involve your senses more,  complementing what your eyes are seeing and newmans just dont have that. For me it actually detracts from the viewing pleasure, I get,  some pieces work better than others with a couple of standout moments. Arnolds scores have the ability to add tension or drama and drive action. Sequences.

SF's score certainly delivers some standout moments, think of Bond after he see's his Aston Martin get blown up or when he's fighting the bad guy underneath the frozen lake. SP on the other hand had no standout moments which is odd considering it was a more proper Bond film then SF that warranted a more bombastic Bond score.

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

SF's score had the pleasure of being original. it's the better of Newman's two efforts but I'm not a fan of either though. How about Christopher Lennertz? He composed the scores for video game versions of From Russia with Love and Quantum of Solace. Both are great Bondian scores especially his FRWL Game score. Here's some of his work on Both.

Big Ben:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xe6vs799D8

Big Ben Arrival/ Jetpack Escape: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpWH7Ukg5qw

On the Barge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqhh86nTybQ

Science Center (Alex Dimitios Fight) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itU2JVoINK8

"No for me."
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"

56

Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

BruceMurdock wrote:

SF's score had the pleasure of being original. it's the better of Newman's two efforts but I'm not a fan of either though. How about Christopher Lennertz? He composed the scores for video game versions of From Russia with Love and Quantum of Solace. Both are great Bondian scores especially his FRWL Game score. Here's some of his work on Both.

Big Ben:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xe6vs799D8

Big Ben Arrival/ Jetpack Escape: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpWH7Ukg5qw

On the Barge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqhh86nTybQ

Science Center (Alex Dimitios Fight) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itU2JVoINK8

Just from these tracks, Lennertz has done a great job creating music with a Bond feel and a complex mood. But he's also just copying David Arnold (the TND film feel for the FRWL game and the QOS film feel for the QOS game). For video games, he does a great job because it relates the music of the game to music of the films. He doesn't offer anything of his own, and I feel that it's necessary for writing a film score. Maybe he can, or maybe he can't. Granted, doing a great job at copying another composer who wrote great Bond scores would be better than Newman's drivel. It's the ability to come up with something original whilst still making it clear that the music is a Bond score that's the true challenge of writing a great Bond score. Arnold clearly took inspiration from Barry, but he didn't copy Barry. Hamlisch took from Barry at times but also added a lot of his own style. Martin had a completely different style from Barry, but he uses the Bond theme enough that you know it's Bond music. I could easily write a Bond score that sounds like something Barry wrote, but I don't know how much I could offer innovation-wise. Copying the Bond sound isn't enough. But Newman's approach of largely ignoring the Bond sound and not using the Bond theme when it needs to be there is not the right approach. When he offers his own sound in the romantic themes, it's really good. When he looks to Hans Zimmer for action music rather than to John Barry, that's not so good. He clearly didn't know how to approach action music.

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

I disagree. I don't really get an Arnold vibe from Lennertz's work. His FRWL score has more Barry inspiration of course but it's more a classical approach. Unfortunately I couldn't find more examples on youtube. His QoS score doesn't at all make me think of Arnold's QoS score. Though I think it's weaker than his FRWL score. I think he'd do a good Bond film score though. Much better than Newman's stuff.

"No for me."
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

Hard to really form a complete opinion regarding Lennertz's game scores from the samples that Bruce kindly posted but there certainly is potential. The one thing I find them to be missing is melody, something of course that Barry was the master of and something that Arnold
did a nice job of in both CR and QOS (which would have been even better if he had a decent theme song to work with).

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

BruceMurdock wrote:

I disagree. I don't really get an Arnold vibe from Lennertz's work. His FRWL score has more Barry inspiration of course but it's more a classical approach. Unfortunately I couldn't find more examples on youtube. His QoS score doesn't at all make me think of Arnold's QoS score. Though I think it's weaker than his FRWL score. I think he'd do a good Bond film score though. Much better than Newman's stuff.

The FRWL music has some material that's taken straight from the Hamburg action scenes in TND.

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

Matt S wrote:
BruceMurdock wrote:

I disagree. I don't really get an Arnold vibe from Lennertz's work. His FRWL score has more Barry inspiration of course but it's more a classical approach. Unfortunately I couldn't find more examples on youtube. His QoS score doesn't at all make me think of Arnold's QoS score. Though I think it's weaker than his FRWL score. I think he'd do a good Bond film score though. Much better than Newman's stuff.

The FRWL music has some material that's taken straight from the Hamburg action scenes in TND.

I'm not hearing that at all. Could point out the time from which you heard that?

"No for me."
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"

61

Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

BruceMurdock wrote:
Matt S wrote:
BruceMurdock wrote:

I disagree. I don't really get an Arnold vibe from Lennertz's work. His FRWL score has more Barry inspiration of course but it's more a classical approach. Unfortunately I couldn't find more examples on youtube. His QoS score doesn't at all make me think of Arnold's QoS score. Though I think it's weaker than his FRWL score. I think he'd do a good Bond film score though. Much better than Newman's stuff.

The FRWL music has some material that's taken straight from the Hamburg action scenes in TND.

I'm not hearing that at all. Could point out the time from which you heard that?

In 'Big Ben', the fanfare from 1:24 to 1:27 is pure Arnold. Some of the horns a little later in the piece are also very Arnold-like.

In 'Jetpack Escape' there's a 5 note motif that Arnold used throughout TND.

The chords and orchestrations during the loud moments are very similar to what Arnold used. The softer moments are more Barry.

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

I'm still not really feeling that. I get what you're saying though. Those weren't really the best examples I could find. Sadly aside from those 2 samples the rest of the game score isn't on Youtube. One of my favorite tracks from the game uses the 4 note Motif Barry used for his music for OHMSS. It's a nice little homage.

"No for me."
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"

63

Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

Matt S wrote:
BruceMurdock wrote:

SF's score had the pleasure of being original. it's the better of Newman's two efforts but I'm not a fan of either though. How about Christopher Lennertz? He composed the scores for video game versions of From Russia with Love and Quantum of Solace. Both are great Bondian scores especially his FRWL Game score. Here's some of his work on Both.

Big Ben:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xe6vs799D8

Big Ben Arrival/ Jetpack Escape: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpWH7Ukg5qw

On the Barge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqhh86nTybQ

Science Center (Alex Dimitios Fight) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itU2JVoINK8

Just from these tracks, Lennertz has done a great job creating music with a Bond feel and a complex mood. But he's also just copying David Arnold (the TND film feel for the FRWL game and the QOS film feel for the QOS game). For video games, he does a great job because it relates the music of the game to music of the films. He doesn't offer anything of his own, and I feel that it's necessary for writing a film score. Maybe he can, or maybe he can't. Granted, doing a great job at copying another composer who wrote great Bond scores would be better than Newman's drivel. It's the ability to come up with something original whilst still making it clear that the music is a Bond score that's the true challenge of writing a great Bond score. Arnold clearly took inspiration from Barry, but he didn't copy Barry. Hamlisch took from Barry at times but also added a lot of his own style. Martin had a completely different style from Barry, but he uses the Bond theme enough that you know it's Bond music. I could easily write a Bond score that sounds like something Barry wrote, but I don't know how much I could offer innovation-wise. Copying the Bond sound isn't enough. But Newman's approach of largely ignoring the Bond sound and not using the Bond theme when it needs to be there is not the right approach. When he offers his own sound in the romantic themes, it's really good. When he looks to Hans Zimmer for action music rather than to John Barry, that's not so good. He clearly didn't know how to approach action music.

I really liked what Newman did with the Bond theme for a lot of SF, it was one of the things that I was most excited about when he was brought on considering his music is the polar opposite of the usual Bond sound. I also felt Arnold's QOS score reeked of DAD and didn't have many good Bond theme uses beyond the end titles, so I welcomed a new take. In SF there's classic takes on the theme like In "breadcrumbs" and "silva's capture" but also his own interpretation in "someone usually dies" and the end of "breadcrumbs". Most tracks on the score have the Bond theme somewhere. My personal favorite is on strings I think it is in the middle of "she's mine". Spectre features really no new uses of theme except copy and pasted from SF. Also its where I think there were obvious missed opportunities to blast the Bond theme, particularly since Spectre was a more a typical Bond adventure that warranted big Bond theme moments.

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

My problem with his music was he barely used it during times it should have been used. His action music in Skyfall was much better than in Spectre though. I wonder what the hell happened that caused him to recycle so much from Skyfall...

"No for me."
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"

65

Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

BruceMurdock wrote:

My problem with his music was he barely used it during times it should have been used. His action music in Skyfall was much better than in Spectre though. I wonder what the hell happened that caused him to recycle so much from Skyfall...

The only music in SF that I think is genuinely lackluster was most of the London underground chase music and the first attack on Skyfall lodge. Outside "shes mine" and "deep water" I definitely agree with Matt that Newman's action music isn't particularly good, But it doesn't detract from the film like a lot of Spectre's action music does.

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

walther p99 wrote:
BruceMurdock wrote:

My problem with his music was he barely used it during times it should have been used. His action music in Skyfall was much better than in Spectre though. I wonder what the hell happened that caused him to recycle so much from Skyfall...

The only music in SF that I think is genuinely lackluster was most of the London underground chase music and the first attack on Skyfall lodge. Outside "shes mine" and "deep water" I definitely agree with Matt that Newman's action music isn't particularly good, But it doesn't detract from the film like a lot of Spectre's action music does.

Agreed. In my last rewatch of Skyfall, the music was serviceable to the visuals but on it's own I don't really listen it much. Though for Spectre it was much worse aside from 3 great tracks the rest is Skyfall leftovers and that disappointed me heavily.

"No for me."
"You forgot the first rule of Mass Media Elliot! Give the people what they want!!!"
"I never miss..."
"Time to face gravity!"

67

Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

Agree 100 percent... Spectre had a few decent tracks but totally ripped off Skyfall... I would really like to see David Arnold back if Craig is back for one or two more...

BruceMurdock wrote:
walther p99 wrote:
BruceMurdock wrote:

My problem with his music was he barely used it during times it should have been used. His action music in Skyfall was much better than in Spectre though. I wonder what the hell happened that caused him to recycle so much from Skyfall...

The only music in SF that I think is genuinely lackluster was most of the London underground chase music and the first attack on Skyfall lodge. Outside "shes mine" and "deep water" I definitely agree with Matt that Newman's action music isn't particularly good, But it doesn't detract from the film like a lot of Spectre's action music does.

Agreed. In my last rewatch of Skyfall, the music was serviceable to the visuals but on it's own I don't really listen it much. Though for Spectre it was much worse aside from 3 great tracks the rest is Skyfall leftovers and that disappointed me heavily.

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

SFX Magazine focus on Bond in their "What do you want to see?" Article this months edition.
I got name checked for highlighting that Mr Arnold should come back to do the music. ajb007/smile

Only David Arnold has really established a solid Bond style since Mr Barry. 

  Thomas Newman does "nice" music. - Finding Nemo springs to mind...

This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

Ever since the late 1980s, it's been vogue for many TV and film producers to want "sonic wallpaper" as scores, which is to say rather bland, generic, and minimalist tonal accompaniment.  The later Star Trek TV series, for instance, were infamous for this.  This is largely a reaction by my generation to the more bombastic and, in my opinion, creatively interesting scores of TV and film in the previous decades.  There's a sense among Gen-Xers in particular that with rare exception -- Star Wars, for instance -- less is more, and anything big and loud is campy.  The more artsy-fartsy the film maker -- and Sam Mendes has pretensions of being an artist -- the more likely they are to use something barely approximating music, a la Thomas Newman, who has little of the talent or vision of his father, who created such iconic scores as How the West Was Won:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwPI80EALPU

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

Gassy Man wrote:

Ever since the late 1980s, it's been vogue for many TV and film producers to want "sonic wallpaper" as scores, which is to say rather bland, generic, and minimalist tonal accompaniment.  The later Star Trek TV series, for instance, were infamous for this.  This is largely a reaction by my generation to the more bombastic and, in my opinion, creatively interesting scores of TV and film in the previous decades.  There's a sense among Gen-Xers in particular that with rare exception -- Star Wars, for instance -- less is more, and anything big and loud is campy.  The more artsy-fartsy the film maker -- and Sam Mendes has pretensions of being an artist -- the more likely they are to use something barely approximating music, a la Thomas Newman, who has little of the talent or vision of his father, who created such iconic scores as How the West Was Won:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwPI80EALPU

How The West Was Won has fantastic music. Though that particular sound is outdated, the concepts behind the music could still work (memorable themes and a level of energy that fits the film). I didn't know that people find bombastic scores campy. But I suppose that also applies to any music that resembles proper music? Music that doesn't match the film, like Newman's in the Bond films, just seems completely wrong to me. An exciting scene without exciting music just seems boring. On the other hand, loud, bombastic music would not fit a small film that feels more like a play, but I just don't understand why people find the concepts of good musical composition to be campy.

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

Some movies need a bombastic orchestral score,  such as Star Wars. Other movies such as kitchen sink dramas would seem silly with them. Bond movies probably don't need quite the Wagnerian style of SW, but definitely need a melodic score played by an orchestra.

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

Number24 wrote:

Some movies need a bombastic orchestral score,  such as Star Wars. Other movies such as kitchen sink dramas would seem silly with them. Bond movies probably don't need quite the Wagnerian style of SW,  but definitely need a melodic score played by an orchestra.

But is there a reason why a kitchen sink drama couldn't have a score that uses the same principles of an old Bond score: melodic, developed music that fits the scenes and feelings of the characters? Today it's all generic "sonic wallpaper", as Gassy Man put it, no matter what the film is.

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

Yes,  different types of movies need different scores. Bond scores are a special type of music and I think they should continue that tradition.

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

Number24 wrote:

Yes,  different types of movies need different scores. Bond scores are a special type of music and I think they should continue that tradition.

Bond scores are not a special type of music. John Barry wrote all his scores with the same attention to musicality. Just about all composers up to the late 1980s used concepts of musical composition when writing film music.

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Re: Bond 25 + Future Bond Score Composer

I should ask, Number24, what do you think generic "sonic wallpaper" accomplishes in other films?