Reaction To Terrorist Attacks in UK

BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
This thread is in response to requests in the Rant Box https://www.ajb007.co.uk/topic/38423/the-rant-box/page/179/ for one dedicated to discussing the recent awful attacks on UK soil.

Please continue discussing these events here rather than in the Rant Box or Random Chat, and please don't allow arguments to become personal. You all know we won't hesitate to close the thread if that happens.
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Comments

  • GrindelwaldGrindelwald Posts: 1,294MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    +1. Deny them the oxygen of publicity.

    Just a thought: don't even call them "terrorists"- just call them "murderers"?

    Remember the Simpsons episode with the living billboards : "just don't look"

    Anyway , they died when no one payed attention to them and if those bandits get less exposure on TV I'll bet they'll be bummed.

    The more TV exposure , the more we are scared of them.

    "Ok, maybe opening a can of worms - but
    Let's take people on the watch list say from Afghanistan, Egypt or Tunisia or even Saudi Arabia.
    Even if you could deport them to their countries, wouldn't it be better to have them in a UK prison or German prison etc instead of deporting them with the chance that they'd 'come back' after some time?"

    Don't let tax payers pay for prison time , have these people permanently banned from air travel and void their passports....everytime they try to return they get "return to sender" at airports.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    edited June 2017
    Barbel wrote:
    +1. Deny them the oxygen of publicity.

    On a first glance, I'd agree with you.

    On a second thought - guess what would happen: The "main stream media" bashers such as Mr. Trump and other populists (you know the usual suspects) will accuse the press of holding back facts and speculate for their motives
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    edited June 2017

    Don't let tax payers pay for prison time , have these people permanently banned from air travel and void their passports....everytime they try to return they get "return to sender" at airports.

    ..and let them commit their attacks against westerners and their weak governments then in their home countries?
    Which means that moderate mid-east systems like Tunesia would fall and not for the better?

    Terrorism can't be dealt with with national methods, the world is too globalised that we can outsource problems to where they have started.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    Higgins wrote:
    Barbel wrote:
    +1. Deny them the oxygen of publicity.

    On a first glance, I'd agree with you.

    On a second thought - guess what would happen: The "main stream media" bashers such as Mr. Trump and other populists (you know the usual suspects) will accuse the press of holding back facts and speculate for their motives

    Not if the deliberate withholding of these criminal's names was an agreed policy.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    :v and the populists are sticking to that agreement??

    Won't happen - unfortunately. In their eyes, everything media is corrupt and evil and they are taking every little chance to score and have their agenda reafirmed.

    Look at Trump. He goes even so low to attack a major who's dealing with a severe terror attack!
    So far about agreements....
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    ?:) But if it was agreed policy then "Trump and other populists" would not be able to "accuse the press of holding back facts and speculate for their motives".
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    :)) yeah, that would work for sure :))
    Also with the keyboard warriors on the social media and stuff!

    And then we have the CNNs (don't get me wrong - I appreciate and like CNN though not flawed) and Al Jazzeeras would report anyhow and will cash in with the ratings and clicks and the UK media would end up getting nothing while it would be reported anyhow.

    Let's face it - they report because many people want to see it - no matter if we like it or not. And that's their job at the end of the day.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    That's a different point which I'm not arguing with.

    You said
    Higgins wrote:
    The "main stream media" bashers such as Mr. Trump and other populists (you know the usual suspects) will accuse the press of holding back facts and speculate for their motives

    which I say would not be applicable if it was policy, ie Trump & co would have no grounds for accusing the press of holding back facts.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    .... and the public outrage (they hold back the religion/nationality of terrorists!!!) if someone would leak that "cartel-like" agreement.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    edited June 2017
    Barbel wrote:

    which I say would not be applicable if it was policy, ie Trump & co would have no grounds for accusing the press of holding back facts.

    Yes and Mr. Trump is well known to defend anything which has been done by the "political establishment". And even if he would agree (he would not!) when such a policy is in the making - we all know how often he substancially changes his mind in short time.

    I understand what you mean my friend but in our times, that would end terrible!
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    No leak necessary- absolutely public knowledge that this was the case.
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    No leak necessary- absolutely public knowledge that this was the case.

    That was the case, when media where the big tv stations and newspapers.
    And if I remember correctly, such an agreement worked until 2 decades ago.

    That all has changed because the other players don't obey to to those agreements anymore.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    You're right in that not every player would agree to such restrictions. However, it would make it necessary for people to actively seek out the names rather than have them unavoidably plastered over the mainstream media.
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    And, sadly, you're also right that Trump doesn't allow mere facts to get in the way of his statements.
    I do believe that having the murderers' faces and names on the front page of national newspapers and in the TV headlines does more good for their "cause" than is necessary. Some feeble-minded idiots would enjoy such attention and seek to emulate them, and this is avoidable (at least to an extent).
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    and here I agree with you - but as said earlier - trying to mingle with a sort of agreement would backfire very soon.

    At the end of the day, we see these faces on front page because the buyers want to see them - at least I did not hear of an important boycott from "us" because the MSM are doing so.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    I'm not disputing what you say about backfiring (at this point), but do you think that this would be worse?
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    edited June 2017
    sooner or later - yes.

    In my opinion, our democracies are under attack.
    And the media are the main targets - from Russia, from terrorists, our own governments (eg Trump) and from the populists.

    And we are stupid enough to echo the stuff about "corrupt" "elitist" etc. media. We destroy our own freedom when we weaken the main press (even they make lots of mistakes). When the big media fall, what do we have to inform and educate ourselves?


    The democracy attackers know this well and this is why Putin and Erdogan firstly targeted and streamlined the press and the rest (loss of civil right elimination of opposition etc.) came later. Trump is just following that path but has more powerful counterplayers - yet!

    It all happened before and we are too ignorant/stupid/uneducated/uninformed to see the warning lights.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
  • Charmed & DangerousCharmed & Dangerous Posts: 7,358MI6 Agent
    Higgins wrote:

    Don't let tax payers pay for prison time , have these people permanently banned from air travel and void their passports....everytime they try to return they get "return to sender" at airports.

    ..and let them commit their attacks against westerners and their weak governments then in their home countries?
    Which means that moderate mid-east systems like Tunesia would fall and not for the better?

    Terrorism can't be dealt with with national methods, the world is too globalised that we can outsource problems to where they have started.

    I would agree it's not ideal, but then there is no ideal solution - just deport them and let their respective governments/regimes deal with them.
    "How was your lamb?" "Skewered. One sympathises."
  • ChriscoopChriscoop Belize Posts: 10,449MI6 Agent
    Higgins wrote:

    Don't let tax payers pay for prison time , have these people permanently banned from air travel and void their passports....everytime they try to return they get "return to sender" at airports.

    ..and let them commit their attacks against westerners and their weak governments then in their home countries?
    Which means that moderate mid-east systems like Tunesia would fall and not for the better?

    Terrorism can't be dealt with with national methods, the world is too globalised that we can outsource problems to where they have started.

    I would agree it's not ideal, but then there is no ideal solution - just deport them and let their respective governments/regimes deal with them.

    Deportation is not an answer, what about terrorists such as in the Manchester attack who was a British national? And why would we want to simply transfer the problem? A starting point should be those who have travelled to likes of Syria, they don't go there to sit around a shisha pipe talking about terrorism and the Western infidels! They participate in rape, murder, torture etc then come home to live next door to you and await instructions or prompts. These guys should be arrested at the airports or ports, their passports seized and taken immediately to a military run secure unit. And before the bleeding hearts start droning on about guantanamo bay or human rights, I'm not suggesting any form of torture, the results of which are notoriously unreliable. We know who these people are, but our legal system is impotent to deal with them.
    Working through the rest of the 3000 strong list should become a priority, where such compelling intelligence exists a panel of 5 specialist judges can decide if a lethal force warrant is justified. This will not cause a mass joining of ISIS or a religious war as everyone is being protected including Muslims who live peacefully and abide the law, Bombs are not selective, they kill all in their path.
    Further afield there should be an international team, who work together specifically to deal with the global terrorist threat, sharing intelligence and made up by multinationals possibly from nato members? .
    It was either that.....or the priesthood
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,699MI6 Agent
    Chriscoop, I'm still unsure if you are talking about executions or assassinations when you write about "lethal force".

    I know terrorism feeds on and is completely reliable on media attention just like Kelly Brook is. But limits går media explosives is very difficult for practical and legal reasons. Keeping bombings secret was very difficult in WWII and completely impossible today. Keeping the identity of the terrorists hidden is not impossible, but very difficult and risky. What if someone in the muslim minority dies of an heart attack that day or even is one of the victims? Chances are the person and his family will be blamed for the attack in social media. That's just one of the reasons it can't be done. Ideally the press should show more restraint after terror attacks, but that's very difficult for a number of reasons.
    I think the best we can hope for is that the press focus on the victims and not the terrorists after the verdict is decided by the courts, simply mentioning the terrorists and their names when strictly necessary.
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,699MI6 Agent
    Now Chriscoop and I have tricked the Mods into believing that we don't hate each other - don't tell the Mods! :v
    My real friends here on AJN007 told me Chriscoop has hired a hitman (he sees it as poetic justice) to make me "disappear". I immediately hired my own and sent him after Chriscoop, because that justice would be poetic on a Shakespearean level.
    Watch this space!
  • ChriscoopChriscoop Belize Posts: 10,449MI6 Agent
    edited June 2017
    Number24 wrote:
    Chriscoop, I'm still unsure if you are talking about executions or assassinations when you write about "let har force".

    I know terrorism feed on and is completely reliable on media attention just like Kelly Brook is. But limits går media explosives is very difficult for practical and legal reasons. Keeping bombings secret was very difficult in WWII and completely impossible today. Keeping the identity of the terrorists hidden is not impossible, but very difficult and risky. What if someone in the muslim minority dies of an heart attack that day or even is one of the victims? Chances are the person and his family will be blame for the attack in social media. That's just one of the reasons it can't be done. Ideally the press should show more restraint after terror attacks, but that's very difficult for a number of reasons.
    I think the best we can hope for is that the press focus on the victims and not the terrorists after the verdict is decided by the courts, simply mentioning the terrorists and their names when strict lyst neccesery.

    I mean executions, but it's academic as that sort of programme would never be implemented unfortunately. So we should discuss what actually does and can happen. The police delivered a spectacular response time to the London Bridge attack, though criticism has been levied by an ex officer who said air support wasn't forth coming as the nearest helicopter was in Oxfordshire. I don't see this as a problem as special forces had a helicopter up there within minutes. I think more use of military hardware and resources should be used in the fight back against terrorism. I also think the security services should be freed of red tape and fear of retribution if they make mistakes in tackling jihadists.

    I'm reading and hearing a lot of " you can't do that or that won't work" but not a lot of what we should do.
    It was either that.....or the priesthood
  • ChriscoopChriscoop Belize Posts: 10,449MI6 Agent
    Number24 wrote:
    Now Chriscoop and I have tricked the Mods into beliving that we don't hate eachother - don't tell the Mods! :v
    My real friends here on AJN007 told me Chriscoop has hired a hitman (he sees it as poetic justice) to make me "disapear". I immediately hired my own and sent him after Chriscoop, because that justice would be poetic on a Shakespearian level.
    Watch this space!

    :))
    Youve no chance 24! Im not sending a hitman, Im coming myself, and I'll bring your hitman with me.... Well a piece of him anyway. :v
    It was either that.....or the priesthood
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    Number24 wrote:
    Now Chriscoop and I have tricked the Mods into believing that we don't hate each other - don't tell the Mods! :v
    My real friends here on AJN007...

    I won't tell the Mods on AJN007 if you don't...
  • ChriscoopChriscoop Belize Posts: 10,449MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    Number24 wrote:
    Now Chriscoop and I have tricked the Mods into believing that we don't hate each other - don't tell the Mods! :v
    My real friends here on AJN007...

    I won't tell the Mods on AJN007 if you don't...

    :)) :))
    It was either that.....or the priesthood
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,699MI6 Agent
    I feel like being completely honest today for some reason. I don't really live by a fjord that has a huge statue of a toad that will be on TV tonight at 20.25 on NRK1. It was all a lie! I live in a flat in Oslo ..... no, I mean Stockholm. Glad to get that off my chest. :v
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 36,053Chief of Staff
    Well, I live in a village on the borders of Ayrshire if that's of any consequence. :)
  • ChriscoopChriscoop Belize Posts: 10,449MI6 Agent
    Number24 wrote:
    I feel like being completely honest today for some reason. I don't really live by a fjord that has a huge statue of a toad that will be on TV tonight at 20.25 on NRK1. It was all a lie! I live in a flat in Oslo ..... no, I mean Stockholm. Glad to get that off my chest. :v

    I'll just be following one of these to side of fjord thats in the shade
    20170606_125924.jpg

    And looking for a tall man in a tight bunad :D
    It was either that.....or the priesthood
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 21,699MI6 Agent
    Chriscoop wrote:
    Number24 wrote:
    I feel like being completely honest today for some reason. I don't really live by a fjord that has a huge statue of a toad that will be on TV tonight at 20.25 on NRK1. It was all a lie! I live in a flat in Oslo ..... no, I mean Stockholm. Glad to get that off my chest. :v

    I'll just be following one of these to side of fjord thats in the shade
    20170606_125924.jpg

    And looking for a tall man in a tight bunad :D

    futurama-fry-should-i-be-worried-or-not.jpg
  • HigginsHiggins GermanyPosts: 16,618MI6 Agent
    Chriscoop wrote:
    These guys should be arrested at the airports or ports, their passports seized and taken immediately to a military run secure unit. And before the bleeding hearts start droning on about guantanamo bay or human rights, I'm not suggesting any form of torture, the results of which are notoriously unreliable. We know who these people are, but our legal system is impotent to deal with them.
    Working through the rest of the 3000 strong list should become a priority, where such compelling intelligence exists a panel of 5 specialist judges can decide if a lethal force warrant is justified. This will not cause a mass joining of ISIS or a religious war as everyone is being protected including Muslims who live peacefully and abide the law, Bombs are not selective, they kill all in their path.
    Further afield there should be an international team, who work together specifically to deal with the global terrorist threat, sharing intelligence and made up by multinationals possibly from nato members? .

    So basically you want Guantanamo in the UK?


    It sounds tempting but GWB and Obama may tell you that their experiences with that path have not been good.
    Imo the fact that Guantanamo existed, fuelled the conflict and brought many additional fighters for ISIS.
    President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

    Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
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