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Re: The tension in Korea

Number24 wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:
Number24 wrote:

. Seoul has almost ten millon people within artillery range of NK.

That's true but the US THAAD system is installed along the north/south Korean border.  During the first gulf war the Iraqis were firing scuds all over the place,  a large proportion of these were taken out,  technology has moved on and THAAD is very reliable.

Artillery
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Qdpctg7UcwM/hqdefault.jpg



SCUD missile:
https://vid.alarabiya.net/images/2016/02/08/4ab61500-55dd-4f80-bee0-0099e0dd00c5/4ab61500-55dd-4f80-bee0-0099e0dd00c5_16x9_788x442.jpg


You can't shoot down artilery grenades, Chriscoop. Even without a single atomic bomb being set off, a new Korean war will have huge casualties.

You're right about the artillery,  but conservative assessment suggests that the north Koreans aged and troublesome artillery batteries could only be effective to south Koreas northern border and the Northern outskirts of Seoul.  They also have limited amounts of ammunition. There airforce would be a bigger worry but I'd suggest that this would be a first target priority for any US led offensive.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

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Re: The tension in Korea

I do not know what sort of equipment the North Koreans use but I think it all will be Chinese or Russian. Their artillery will be towed? Firing this from fixed positions mean that a counter fire or attack by aircraft would be quick to follow. I also think that the Americans will have the radar to pick the shell fire - I think this is possible with mortar fire but mortar rounds will not fly as fast?
Even if they moved quickly after firing the North Koreans artillery would only have a limited area of operation? I mean that they could not be taken too far from the front area or they would not be able to have the range to hit targets. This limited range would be of help in also narrowing the area for search and counter attack?

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Re: The tension in Korea

Joshua wrote:

I do not know what sort of equipment the North Koreans use but I think it all will be Chinese or Russian. Their artillery will be towed? Firing this from fixed positions mean that a counter fire or attack by aircraft would be quick to follow. I also think that the Americans will have the radar to pick the shell fire - I think this is possible with mortar fire but mortar rounds will not fly as fast?
Even if they moved quickly after firing the North Koreans artillery would only have a limited area of operation? I mean that they could not be taken too far from the front area or they would not be able to have the range to hit targets. This limited range would be of help in also narrowing the area for search and counter attack?

They are indeed Chinese and Russian but old now.  I think satellite technology would mean that the US have a pretty good idea where the artillery is. Also special ops will probably be deployed if they aren't already and they can paint any targets for the airforce to strike. 
North Korea essentially has a proud but dated view to military might.  It's OK parading 500,000 conscripts through Pyongyang and hovercraft and old tanks but the modern equipment used by the US renders such forces ineffective. The use of smart warfare can quickly diminish such a force.  The north Koreans have an airforce of just under 940 aging aircraft 2 euro fighters would be more effective than 20 of theirs.  It would be like ten badly trained men firing catapults at an m1 Abrams tank.

Last edited by Chriscoop (13th Aug 2017 15:33)

It was either that.....or the priesthood

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Re: The tension in Korea

Good points. Eventually (after a few days? a week or two?) the US and South Korea will have wiped out most of NK's artillery. But the North Korean People’s Army Artillery Command is responsible for 12,000 pieces of tube artillery and 2,300 pieces of multiple launch rocket artillery over 107-millimeters. I dread to think of the damage that kind of firepower can do to South Korean cities in just one day. The NK military is also outdated and badly in need of repair. But the Korean peninsula is a relatively small geographical area, here NK is compared to north-eastern US:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f3/bf/ed/f3bfed8d9f8c0d1d2ada1895ee1de4f9--north-korea-brat.jpg

At the same time it's very urbanized. NK has a population of 25 million and South Korea has about 51 million people. Since this is a peninsula, South Koreans can only flee by boat or planes.

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Re: The tension in Korea

This is true,  but I'm pretty confident that things will not get that far,  at the first sign of hostilities you would expect a mass evacuation of south Koreans south,  let's not forget that south Korea is a highly developed country and at present has good relations with China,  south Korea also has an advanced fighting force of course backed by the US which let's not forget have around 30,000 troops based there.  Any invasion of south Korea by North Korea is simply untenable and wouldn't get past the demilitarised zone in any kind of threatening nature.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

31

Re: The tension in Korea

It is only my guess of course but I think that many north Korean officer and soldiers would not want to die for the dictator and many would want him to be killed or captured soon in the fight. I was a soldier in the army of the dictator and this makes me think when i see the soldiers around the North Koreans dictator that their support for him would not be as he expects.

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Re: The tension in Korea

Would also not the south Koreans who live with this threat for many years, have the bomb shelters for the civilians in the cities and towns?

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Re: The tension in Korea

Higgins wrote:

Well, I am concerned

- that the "problem" of not setting up the chain reaction has been "solved"
- and even if not, the raining down of some hundred kilograms of Uranium may be not nice as well

That all, if the THAAD works 100% successfully

Don't forget the patriot system that the US also have.  Uranium raining down is practically a zero rated threat. The warheads are that tough that it takes a precise chain of events to make the nuclear threat.  This is the area that everyone other than the most advanced nuclear nations struggle to perfect thankfully.  An intercepted missile would explode but the warheads are most likely to stay intact and fall to the surface which would then be recovered and made safe.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

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Re: The tension in Korea

Most of the NK military is from the cold war. The the best equipment units in WWII would probably do well against them. I agree there most likely won't be a war and if there is, the South Korean and US forces will win. There will be large military and civilian losset.

Strange but true: Like many other nations Norway sent a MASH hospital unit to the Korean war in the early 1950's. But when I was in the military I met the father of another soldier from my district. The father had been a paratrooper, and he told us about one of their instructors. The instructor had served in Korea, had PTS and a bayonet with many notches on it. I found this strange because all sources said only medical personell had been sent to the Korean war. A few years ago a journalist found the diary of a man who had served in Korea. He had served in an elite light infantry (Storm Troops) unit and had contacted recon missions and raids with other Norwegians. They had all been told not to speak of this to anyone. I e-mailed the journalist and hopefully I helped him a little bit find more information.

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Re: The tension in Korea

Joshua wrote:

It is only my guess of course but I think that many north Korean officer and soldiers would not want to die for the dictator and many would want him to be killed or captured soon in the fight. I was a soldier in the army of the dictator and this makes me think when i see the soldiers around the North Koreans dictator that their support for him would not be as he expects.

This is also a very valid point.  It's OK having a huge conscripted army to parade,  but once the US fighters start flying over head amd the cruise missiles are landing suddenly Kim Jong and that uniform seem harder to fight for,  especially when your family is starving due to the economic sanctions. 
And just a point on geography as number 24 has pointed out.  Of the two countries in the Korean peninsula north Korea is the worst location, China to the north, Japan to the east,  south Korea to the south leaves them locked in with no escape routes and difficult re supply routes.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

36

Re: The tension in Korea

Joshua wrote:

Would also not the south Koreans who live with this threat for many years, have the bomb shelters for the civilians in the cities and towns?

There are over 10 million people in Seoul alone and large parts of their valuable industry, show me shelters for that amount of people.

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

37

Re: The tension in Korea

Chriscoop wrote:
Joshua wrote:

It is only my guess of course but I think that many north Korean officer and soldiers would not want to die for the dictator and many would want him to be killed or captured soon in the fight. I was a soldier in the army of the dictator and this makes me think when i see the soldiers around the North Koreans dictator that their support for him would not be as he expects.

This is also a very valid point.  It's OK having a huge conscripted army to parade,  but once the US fighters start flying over head amd the cruise missiles are landing suddenly Kim Jong and that uniform seem harder to fight for,  especially when your family is starving due to the economic sanctions. 
And just a point on geography as number 24 has pointed out.  Of the two countries in the Korean peninsula north Korea is the worst location, China to the north, Japan to the east,  south Korea to the south leaves them locked in with no escape routes and difficult re supply routes.

I've recently seen a reporting of NK's education.

From  Childhood on they are taught that the USA are evil and so are the SK brothers. They all have ploitical drill every week.

Now look how people take rubbish from Facebook for granted and now imagine hat brainwashing for a lifetime will do with their political beliefs.

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

38

Re: The tension in Korea

Chriscoop wrote:
Joshua wrote:

It is only my guess of course but I think that many north Korean officer and soldiers would not want to die for the dictator and many would want him to be killed or captured soon in the fight. I was a soldier in the army of the dictator and this makes me think when i see the soldiers around the North Koreans dictator that their support for him would not be as he expects.

This is also a very valid point.  It's OK having a huge conscripted army to parade,  but once the US fighters start flying over head amd the cruise missiles are landing suddenly Kim Jong and that uniform seem harder to fight for,  especially when your family is starving due to the economic sanctions. 
And just a point on geography as number 24 has pointed out.  Of the two countries in the Korean peninsula north Korea is the worst location, China to the north, Japan to the east,  south Korea to the south leaves them locked in with no escape routes and difficult re supply routes.


My point about the geographical was that South Korean (SK) civilians have very limited hopes of escape in case of war. At least in theory NK civilians can escape to China. We simply don't know how NK soldiers will react in case of war. In most dictatorships people have at least some knowledge about the outside world. When Iraq soldiers capitulated en masse in 1991, they knew the enemy was more powerful and likely to treat prisoners well. NK is the most isolated country in the world. A small number are guest workers in China, but everyone else have no real contact with foreigners. Their isolation is so great most didn't know America had put men on the moon, even as late as the 1980's. NK soldiers might think the enemy is weak and badly equiped,  and likely to torture and kill prisoners.

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Re: The tension in Korea

Markus, i think it would not be correct (I don't know what word to use so I use correct) to think that South Korea after many decades of threats of war with the north that they do not develop a good system of defence for the civilians. Remember I speak about artillery and rocket attack here not nuclear war.

Seoul will be a big city yes? If it has ten million people then it must be big. To think that the North Koreans can fire artillery or rockets that will attack all of this city at once is just not true. The enemies would need many tens of thousands of guns to even be able to threaten this. Once they start to fire then counter fire from South Koreans and the Americans would be swift to knock many of their guns out after they have only fired a few salvos of shells. I think of the rocket system that the Americans used in iraq, MLR? These system will be in South Korea i think. The longer range rockets would be the danger but I think the anti rocket defence weapons could defeat those until they were found and destroyed.
To be safe from artillery and rockets fire, you do not need to have actual bomb shelters to be made for this, an underground car park or basement or tube line will protect from this. Also as I say, because of the fact that the North Koreans (or any other armies of the world) would have enough guns to attack the city all over at once, this means that people could be evacuated from the city and out of artillery range. I think the South Koreans must have drill for this situation?

Also the report from North Korea. Unless it was made by the insiders in North Korea then it can not be any more valid than other news that you mention. I think though that what you wrote will be true, but it is only correct I think to question that when other sources are questioned, yes?

Number 24. I think it might interest you when I say my own country had long relations with North Korea until very recent times. indeed this was military as well as political ties. the North Koreans did send their special troops to my country to train people. I was not one of these who was trained but it did happen.

I think also to how my country and the dictator who was a great admirer of the North Koreans dictator and even tried to make things in some way the same as that country. I was taught that white men were bad and that the west was bad and that Great Britain was very bad. We you could say were brainwashed. I could still perhaps think these things if I did not have what all people have, independence of mind. I think that for anyone to believe that all Koreans are brainwashed robots is unkind to them. When you are in a dictatorship you go with the dictator because of fear, that does not stop you making your own thoughts. For the North Korean soldiers to be faced with war from South Korea and America with weapons which they have no answer would soon see the collapse.

Do not think I am for any war. Any war would be tragedy. I only give my opinion on how I think any war would go if it happens.


I still think all white men are bad except for (only sometimes)  higgins and number 24!! ajb007/lol  THIS IS JOKE!!!

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Re: The tension in Korea

ajb007/lol

What you write about the country you come from and NK is very interesting. I have talked to Syrian refugees and they tell me NK special forces are there too, fighting for Assad.

Not correct = incorrect

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Re: The tension in Korea

Number24 wrote:

ajb007/lol

What you write about the country you come from and NK is very interesting. I have talked to Syrian refugees and they tell me NK special forces are there too, fighting for Assad.

Not correct = incorrect

I did not know this, it is interesting to know.

Just on the brainwashing again. I would just like to say that I was once a loyal supporter of my dictator, I joined the army to show this support. I changed my mind though and became an opponent instead. I think that even being taught the lessons that the dictator wants you to learn can never stop freedom of thoughts in everyone.

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Re: The tension in Korea

Number24 wrote:
Chriscoop wrote:
Joshua wrote:

It is only my guess of course but I think that many north Korean officer and soldiers would not want to die for the dictator and many would want him to be killed or captured soon in the fight. I was a soldier in the army of the dictator and this makes me think when i see the soldiers around the North Koreans dictator that their support for him would not be as he expects.

This is also a very valid point.  It's OK having a huge conscripted army to parade,  but once the US fighters start flying over head amd the cruise missiles are landing suddenly Kim Jong and that uniform seem harder to fight for,  especially when your family is starving due to the economic sanctions. 
And just a point on geography as number 24 has pointed out.  Of the two countries in the Korean peninsula north Korea is the worst location, China to the north, Japan to the east,  south Korea to the south leaves them locked in with no escape routes and difficult re supply routes.


My point about the geographical was that South Korean (SK) civilians have very limited hopes of escape in case of war. At least in theory NK civilians can escape to China. We simply don't know how NK soldiers will react in case of war. In most dictatorships people have at least some knowledge about the outside world. When Iraq soldiers capitulated en masse in 1991, they knew the enemy was more powerful and likely to treat prisoners well. NK is the most isolated country in the world. A small number are guest workers in China, but everyone else have no real contact with foreigners. Their isolation is so great most didn't know America had put men on the moon, even as late as the 1980's. NK soldiers might think the enemy is weak and badly equiped,  and likely to torture and kill prisoners.

I see your point with south Korea having no where to evacuate from by land.  But don't forget that if war (which is unlikely)  did happen south Korea would have resupply routes by sea and air the Chinese would not give north Korea safe or free access into China so they would be far more isolated.

It was either that.....or the priesthood

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Re: The tension in Korea

I have just read this. It is a very interesting report and I think peoples here in this discusion should read it.

https://southfront.org/north-korea-vs-s … look-like/

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Re: The tension in Korea

The report was very interesting. I think we can conclude that NK's main strengths are the nuclear and missile program, their artillery and having lots of soldiers. I knew SK has and advanced and well-trained military. Just recently the Norwegian Army bought K9 Thunder artillery from them.

In case of a war NK civilians will try to escape to China. It is very much in question if their own governmet will let them go and if China wil let them in. Thank God it's unlikely there will be a war.

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Re: The tension in Korea

It occured to me that South Korea can be called the Israel of the Far East:

- perhaps USA's closest ally in the region
- economically and technologically advanced
- has a large military on a high level of readiness
- large producers of advanced military equipment
- A small country, desputed territory and animosity towards (some) neighbour country(ies)

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Re: The tension in Korea

I have just watched Doctor No. I wondered if in real life the Amercans are trying to interefere with south Koreans missiles to take them off course or explode with electronics measures? I wonder if this is even possible to do against a missile?

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Re: The tension in Korea

I think there has been speculations in the press about this.

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Re: The tension in Korea

Joshua wrote:

I have just watched Doctor No. I wondered if in real life the Amercans are trying to interefere with south Koreans missiles to take them off course or explode with electronics measures? I wonder if this is even possible to do against a missile?

There was "Star Wars" in America in the 80s where they would set up a system as a counter measure for nuclear attacks by destroying the missile while it was in space. At least, that's what I remember.

"...I have the oddest feeling we will be meeting again sometime..."
-Roger Moore's James Bond. RIP.
I have a YouTube channel on all things Bond (amongst other things, coming soon™).
The name's Bond and Beyond. It's currently on hold, though.

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Re: The tension in Korea

The N.Koreans are nowhere as far advanced in missile technology as some make out.  ajb007/wink

“I didn’t lose a friend, I just realised I never had one.”

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Re: The tension in Korea

I don't think we're talking about shooting down these missile that are tested. If NK try to launch at Guam it's a different matter. My impression is hacking, radio waves and that sort of thing is used to make the missile crash or not lunch at all.