7,201

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

emtiem wrote:
Matt S wrote:
emtiem wrote:

I’d be happy if he brings a touch of Johnny Marr! He’s much more of a guitar hero than Flick ever was.

I'm starting to get the impression you're not much a fan of Bond music.

Based on what?! I’m a fan of Bond music being innovative: Barry wasn’t just copying what came before, and his music is fantastic as a result. Why on earth would anyone hope Johnny Marr would be copying a session musician? He’s Johnny Marr! ajb007/biggrin If you think Vic Flick, good though he was, was anything near to being Johnny Marr then I get the impression you aren’t a fan of music in general! ajb007/smile

Barry invented the Bond sound. It's a sound that should be respected in a Bond film. It's why so many people hate Michel Legrand's NSNA score, and despite him being one of the greatest songwriters of all time, he messed up there. I could quickly name 50 composers that are better than John Barry and 50 guitar players that are better than Vic Flick, but the 25th Bond film isn't the place to invent a new sound since the series has a fantastic one already established. The performer of a Bond score doesn't matter so much as a fitting performance for Bond does.

7,202

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

Vic Flick basically did a faster/jazzier take on the Duane Eddie twangy/reverb drenched guitar sound for the Bond theme that basically created a sub genre of instrumental pop akin to "surf music" known as "spy instro music". Marr is known for his jangly, appregiated chord style. Marr is not known for overdriven, note sustaining solos. Flick being a studio pro, could probably play any style of music a recording/song might call for. Marr's style does not necessarily mean he's isn't capable of doing other things either. Marr is also an accomplished songwriter. It's not clear whether Marr is be actually co-writing some of the score or is just being used as a guitar player. Whatever it is, I wouldn't see it as a negative, I just wouldn't expect Marr to be providing any Vic Flick single note surfy twang to the score....but one never knows.

As far as what Matt S said "Barry invented the Bond sound. It's a sound that should be respected in a Bond film. It's why so many people hate Michel Legrand's NSNA score, and despite him being one of the greatest songwriters of all time, he messed up there. I could quickly name 50 composers that are better than John Barry and 50 guitar players that are better than Vic Flick, but the 25th Bond film isn't the place to invent a new sound since the series has a fantastic one already established. The performer of a Bond score doesn't matter so much as a fitting performance for Bond does."

I pretty much agree with that 100% with the caveat of allowing the composer some latitude to put their own personal stamp on it . Based upon a lot of what Zimmer has done, he should not find it difficult to meld his "style" to the Barry/Bond style, especially Barry's later more orchestral scores.

Last edited by HowardB (17th Jan 2020 18:33)

7,203

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

Can I just say it's a pleasure to read intelligent discussion of Bond/Barry music? I'm not going to participate much (been there, done that, many times) but I'm enjoying the discussion from people who actually do know the subject.  ajb007/cheers

7,204

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

I love the smiths and was thinking the other day that I'd love to be in a parallel universe where the smiths did the title song for a Dalton Bond film.
This is excellent news. Another big name added to this film.

“The scent and smoke and sweat of a casino are nauseating at three in the morning. "
-Casino Royale, Ian Fleming

7,205

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

Here's a recent song by Johnny Marr. Very 80s IMHO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3pIlK8cg6o

And here is a much older 2013 track of his. You can really hear The Smiths influence in it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXEc9WZ1bkY

The mind boggles as to what Zimmer is thinking of doing with NTTD by bringing Marr onboard.

7,206

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

Never realised Marr and Zimmer were chums and already collaborated in the past!

Bizarre but cool collaboration!   Have high hopes now ajb007/smile

Instagram - bondclothes007

7,207

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

Matt S wrote:
emtiem wrote:
Matt S wrote:

I'm starting to get the impression you're not much a fan of Bond music.

Based on what?! I’m a fan of Bond music being innovative: Barry wasn’t just copying what came before, and his music is fantastic as a result. Why on earth would anyone hope Johnny Marr would be copying a session musician? He’s Johnny Marr! ajb007/biggrin If you think Vic Flick, good though he was, was anything near to being Johnny Marr then I get the impression you aren’t a fan of music in general! ajb007/smile

Barry invented the Bond sound. It's a sound that should be respected in a Bond film. It's why so many people hate Michel Legrand's NSNA score, and despite him being one of the greatest songwriters of all time, he messed up there. I could quickly name 50 composers that are better than John Barry and 50 guitar players that are better than Vic Flick, but the 25th Bond film isn't the place to invent a new sound since the series has a fantastic one already established. The performer of a Bond score doesn't matter so much as a fitting performance for Bond does.


You don’t respect a sound by pasticheing it and trying to sound like a session musician from 60 years ago. They’ll obviously respect what’s been done before but it’s pointless getting a great talent in and hoping they’ll be there just to mimic someone else. You don’t hire Daniel Craig and expect him to do a Sean Connery impression, all Scottish accents and shexy shpeech impediments. There’s absolutely no need to try and infer that someone is less of a fan than you just because they don’t only want to hear the same old stuff again: that’s unnecessary.

7,208

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

HowardB wrote:

Vic Flick basically did a faster/jazzier take on the Duane Eddie twangy/reverb drenched guitar sound for the Bond theme that basically created a sub genre of instrumental pop akin to "surf music" known as "spy instro music". Marr is known for his jangly, appregiated chord style. Marr is not known for overdriven, note sustaining solos. Flick being a studio pro, could probably play any style of music a recording/song might call for. Marr's style does not necessarily mean he's isn't capable of doing other things either. Marr is also an accomplished songwriter. It's not clear whether Marr is be actually co-writing some of the score or is just being used as a guitar player. Whatever it is, I wouldn't see it as a negative, I just wouldn't expect Marr to be providing any Vic Flick single note surfy twang to the score....but one never knows.

Yeah he’s both been a co-writer with Zimmer and just a musician (although I suspect he probably brings quite a lot of knowledge with him even when he’s ‘just’ playing) so we’ll have to see how it takes shape.
Kind of reminiscent of the Kamen/Clapton collaboration- although hopefully this one will actually happen for Bond! ajb007/smile

7,209

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

IMO, the music should be in service to the film. When it comes to Bond some prefer the classic Barry scores, others might want something different. I personally have been more "moved" by what Barry did (and Arnold also) and I just find those scores just feel "right" and enhance the "Bondness" for lack of a better term. I also like what George Martin did on LALD and the way he incorporated McCartney's title song into the score. It may have been Martin and McCartney but I think they also captured the right feel. For me, except foer the Arnold scores, the rest of the non-Barry scores are nothing special. I actually think Arnold did not really hit his full stride until CR....not having the Bond theme to fall back on may have pushed him to a higher level.
Regarding the Zimmer/Marr connection, it's not surprising when you really look at Zimmer's musical background. While Zimmer is of course a formally trained musician and composer he was (and probably still is) a rock n roller and spent some years in London before relocating to the USA. Whether or not the score turns out to be "classic Barry meets Zimmer Bond" or whatever......my guess is it will be better than the SF and SP scores (which both had some moments, but not enough).

7,210

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

Someone wrote:

The mind boggles as to what Zimmer is thinking of doing with NTTD by bringing Marr onboard.

I dont think its that mind boggling. A guitar is an iconic part of the Bond sound and Johnny Marr is a guitar player.

@deanwdunlevy

7,211

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

HowardB wrote:

Regarding the Zimmer/Marr connection, it's not surprising when you really look at Zimmer's musical background. While Zimmer is of course a formally trained musician and composer he was (and probably still is) a rock n roller and spent some years in London before relocating to the USA. Whether or not the score turns out to be "classic Barry meets Zimmer Bond" or whatever......my guess is it will be better than the SF and SP scores (which both had some moments, but not enough).

Zimmer is not a formality trained musician and composer. He said,

"My formal training was 2 week(s) of piano lessons. I was thrown out of 8 schools. But I joined a band. I am self-taught. But I've always heard music in my head. And I'm a child of the 20th century; computers came in very handy."

He is in good company, as many legends in music are self-taught. Though most self-taught musicians snd composers have more training than Zimmer.

Zimmer’s talent isn’t in composing but rather in creating sounds. No musical training could have given him the talent that truly made him memorable and successful.

7,212

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

Didn't know that....assumed Zimmer was a music school guy....duh. Marr also appears to be pretty much self taught and he has his own unique style. Check this out on You Tube: Marr along with Billy Duffy doing a killer cover of The Good, The Bad and the Ugly from back in the early 90's. It shows that Marr has versatility and actually bodes well for what he might be able to contribute to a Bond score.
I gotta say, when you look at the creative minds and talent involved in NTTD, if the final product even comes close to equaling the sum of its parts, it could be a great film. One can only hope......

7,213

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

HowardB wrote:

Didn't know that....assumed Zimmer was a music school guy....duh. Marr also appears to be pretty much self taught and he has his own unique style. Check this out on You Tube: Marr along with Billy Duffy doing a killer cover of The Good, The Bad and the Ugly from back in the early 90's. It shows that Marr has versatility and actually bodes well for what he might be able to contribute to a Bond score.
I gotta say, when you look at the creative minds and talent involved in NTTD, if the final product even comes close to equaling the sum of its parts, it could be a great film. One can only hope......

Zimmer doesn't think like a musician, which has lead him to come up with unusual ideas to give his scores unique feels. Most musically trained people think of music as mostly notes, but Zimmer rarely thinks about the notes. It has given him the ability to really think outside the box as to what musical scores can be in terms of sound. Some musically trained film composers, like Jerry Goldsmith, have done similar things with sound experimentation in film music, but Goldsmith used them to augment his conventional (or avant-garde) music while Zimmer frequently makes his scores all about these sounds.

With Marr, I wonder if Zimmer is going for a rock approach to NTTD. He may have the idea to give Bond his cool sound through Marr's guitar. That's the kind of thing Zimmer would do I've been researching Zimmer over the past week, and in trying to understand what he does I believe he focuses on sounds rather than notes to tell the story. Because Zimmer isn't a trained composer, he doesn't have the ability to work with notes in a way that someone like John Williams can. You could play most of John Williams scores with two pianos and get the general idea of what he's going for. With Zimmer it's about the texture of the sound he gets. That approach doesn't do it for me, but it's a creative one at least.

7,214

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

Marr worked with Zimmer on both Inception and Amazing Spider-Man, so it's not a total unknown quantity.

7,215

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

The more I listen to the Inception score, the more optimistic I become that Zimmer is going to do something very good for NTTD. It'll be very interesting if and how he weaves the Bond Theme into the score. I wonder if utilizing the Bond Theme is something the producers, etc insisted on up front. Also, if there is a traditional gun barrel opening (and I hope and assume there will be), will they use the traditional version of the Bond Theme or Zimmer's take on it?

Last edited by HowardB (18th Jan 2020 05:48)

7,216

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

HowardB wrote:

The more I listen to the Inception score, the more optimistic I become that Zimmer is going to do something very good for NTTD. It'll be very interesting if and how he weaves the Bond Theme into the score. I wonder if utilizing the Bond Theme is something the producers, etc insisted on up front. Also, if there is a traditional gun barrel opening (and I hope and assume there will be), will they use the traditional version of the Bond Theme or Zimmer's take on it?

I’m sure Zimmer would love to use the Bond Theme. He’s not opposed to working with others’ material. And I hope he scores the gunbarrel in whatever style he scores the film. The music there sets up the musical tone for the whole film. Barry, Martin, Conti, Serra, Arnold did that brilliantly. Yes, even Serra, who used the Bond theme and gave it an approach consistent with his score. And Newman’s misplaced music for his in SP showed he had no idea what he was doing, something the whole score would prove. So Zimmer better make it sound consistent, like a good composer would.

7,217

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

More evidence that Billie Eilish's theme song is going to be woven into the score.
https://www.slashfilm.com/no-time-to-die-theme-song/

Zimmer says he has become good friends with Eilish. Certainly David Arnold has said in the past, where theme songs have not been part of the score, QoS, DAD and TND, for example, that he had had no involvement with the singer, song writers.

7,218

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

Someone wrote:

More evidence that Billie Eilish's theme song is going to be woven into the score.
https://www.slashfilm.com/no-time-to-die-theme-song/

Zimmer says he has become good friends with Eilish. Certainly David Arnold has said in the past, where theme songs have not been part of the score, QoS, DAD and TND, for example, that he had had no involvement with the singer, song writers.

He was involved with the song writer on QoS.

7,219

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

emtiem wrote:
Someone wrote:

More evidence that Billie Eilish's theme song is going to be woven into the score.
https://www.slashfilm.com/no-time-to-die-theme-song/

Zimmer says he has become good friends with Eilish. Certainly David Arnold has said in the past, where theme songs have not been part of the score, QoS, DAD and TND, for example, that he had had no involvement with the singer, song writers.

He was involved with the song writer on QoS.

Evidence?

I have evidence to the contrary. https://moviemusicuk.us/2008/11/14/quan … id-arnold/

"On Casino Royale, Arnold collaborates with singer/songwriter Chris Cornell on “You Know My Name”, the melody of which was incorporated into the underscore proper, but which for legal reasons did not feature on the soundtrack CD. On Quantum of Solace, however, the reverse is true.The song here, “Another Way to Die”, features prominently on the soundtrack CD, but did not involve Arnold in any way"

https://www.filmtracks.com/titles/quantum_solace.html

Quantum of Solace joins Die Another Day as featuring a song without Arnold's contribution.

Official Columbia Pictures press release which says; "written and produced by Jack White". No mention of Arnold.
https://web.archive.org/web/20080911055 … elease.pdf

IGN.com Music interview with Jack White: " The track was written, produced & performed by White and features Alicia Keys." No mention of Arnold.
https://web.archive.org/web/20081005114 … 612p1.html

Last edited by Someone (18th Jan 2020 12:12)

7,220

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

Someone wrote:
emtiem wrote:
Someone wrote:

More evidence that Billie Eilish's theme song is going to be woven into the score.
https://www.slashfilm.com/no-time-to-die-theme-song/

Zimmer says he has become good friends with Eilish. Certainly David Arnold has said in the past, where theme songs have not been part of the score, QoS, DAD and TND, for example, that he had had no involvement with the singer, song writers.

He was involved with the song writer on QoS.

Evidence?

Oh you can see my posts? I thought you couldn’t. As you asked so politely: the evidence was him saying that he did (although obviously it wasn’t a collaboration) and putting the song in the score.

7,221

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

Someone wrote:
emtiem wrote:
Someone wrote:

More evidence that Billie Eilish's theme song is going to be woven into the score.
https://www.slashfilm.com/no-time-to-die-theme-song/

Zimmer says he has become good friends with Eilish. Certainly David Arnold has said in the past, where theme songs have not been part of the score, QoS, DAD and TND, for example, that he had had no involvement with the singer, song writers.

He was involved with the song writer on QoS.

Evidence?

emtiem wrote:

the evidence was him saying that he did

Proof?

Listen to David Arnold himself prove you wrong, at 15mins into this BBC interview. "I knew Jack White was writing the song so that was his problem [whether to use the word quantum in the song] and not mine."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZUEw2IEkJM

7,222

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

Someone wrote:
Someone wrote:
emtiem wrote:

He was involved with the song writer on QoS.

Evidence?

emtiem wrote:

the evidence was him saying that he did

Proof?

Listen to David Arnold himself prove you wrong, at 15mins into this BBC interview. "I knew Jack White was writing the song so that was his problem [whether to use the word quantum in the song] and not mine."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZUEw2IEkJM

How does that prove me wrong? I know White wrote it: we all know that- I said he was ‘involved with the song writer’: I don’t need ‘proof’ that he didn’t write it. I said it wasn’t a collaboration. But they were communicating and had involvement together: hence the song being referenced throughout the score- if you think that’s incorrect just try listening to it. Arnold has said this: it’s twelve years ago so heaven knows where I’d find that interview again.

7,223

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

emtiem wrote:

How does that prove me wrong? I know White wrote it: we all know that- I said he was ‘involved with the song writer’:

My post said he didn't write AWTD. Your post was clearly trying to say that he was involved in its writing. He wasn't.

I don’t need ‘proof’ that he didn’t write it. I said it wasn’t a collaboration. But they were communicating and had involvement together:

Eh, yes, if you state something I think you need proof. I know we live in Trumpian times where truth and facts don't matter but I'd hope that AJB was still a place where people need to prove the factual accuracy of their statements. Why not declare Goldfinger a woman?

hence the song being referenced throughout the score- if you think that’s incorrect just try listening to it.

The song isn't referenced IMHO. If anyone can point to a place in the score where it is referenced (and the song being on the soundtrack album doesn't count) please refer to a time stamp in the film or one of the cues on the soundtrack. Thanks.

I think adults should be grown up enough to admit when they're wrong.

7,224

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

Take this to PMs, guys. No more in the thread please.

7,225

Re: Craig is back: Discuss Bond 25 here

Someone wrote:
emtiem wrote:

How does that prove me wrong? I know White wrote it: we all know that- I said he was ‘involved with the song writer’:

My post said he didn't write AWTD. Your post was clearly trying to say that he was involved in its writing. He wasn't.

I don’t need ‘proof’ that he didn’t write it. I said it wasn’t a collaboration. But they were communicating and had involvement together:

Eh, yes, if you state something I think you need proof. I know we live in Trumpian times where truth and facts don't matter but I'd hope that AJB was still a place where people need to prove the factual accuracy of their statements. Why not declare Goldfinger a woman?

hence the song being referenced throughout the score- if you think that’s incorrect just try listening to it.

The song isn't referenced IMHO. If anyone can point to a place in the score where it is referenced (and the song being on the soundtrack album doesn't count) please refer to a time stamp in the film or one of the cues on the soundtrack. Thanks.

I think adults should be grown up enough to admit when they're wrong.

When he asks Fields to help him find the stationary, you can hear a bit of the "Another Way To Die" melody in there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUVVFwl_udU

13 seconds in.