51

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

HowardB wrote:
You'veHadYourSix wrote:
HowardB wrote:

NTTD, IMO has three things going for it that give me hope / guarded optimism that it will be closer to CR and Skyfall than QOS and SPECTRE. Cary Fukunaga. He can write, he's one of the best at shooting suspenseful action and suspense in general (something Bond has been lacking since CR), and he's fresh to the series and might bring that sensibility to NTTD that was sorely missing from SPECTRE. The writers. Purvis and Wade seem to be very adept at coming up with good basic foundations for Bond films but really fall short with smart dialog and character development. Having outstanding screen writers Fukunaga, Scott Z. Burns, and Phoebe Waller-Bridge to re-write, complete and polish the script could have put things on a significantly higher level. And of course, last, but possibly the most important, having back a lean, fit, and reinvigorated Daniel Craig who appears at 51 to be determined to go out on a high note and not be the latest member of the "did one too many Bond club".


Finally someone being optimistic about bond 25.

I'm just gonna put this out there and I might get some heat for this I think Cary Fukunaga is a better director than Martin Cambell just saying everything is an opinion and that's mine.

ajb007/lol

If you can get past the very difficult pre-production and all the Tab slagging that went along with it, when you just look at the creative team EON ended up with: Fukunaga, the other writers, the DP, etc IMO, the film appears to be in very good hands. Regarding Fukunaga being a better director than Martin Campbell, it's really all relative. Campbell has a long career as a film director, primarily in the action genre and has done some good work, especially with his two Bond films, both of which are credited with breathing new life into and resurrecting the franchise. However, when judging Campbell by his entire resume, he is probably considered a very good "journeyman" director. Fukunaga, much younger and with a much smaller work sampling is considered one of the new hot outstanding young directorial talents and more of an auteur with screen writing credits and his work as a DP. IMO, I would have to say that Campbell is the better "Bond Director" as he has a proven track record with one very good to excellent Bond film (GE) and one truly classic Bond film (CR). Fukunaga, depending on how NTTD turns out has the potential to become part of the great Bond directors club, but we won't know that until April 2020. I for one, hope he can stand with Campbell, Terence Young, Guy Hamilton, Peter Hunt, and Sam Mendes as just not a good director, but a good director who made a great Bond film.


Interesting opinion there, yes both Goldeneye and Casino are brilliant and true he did breathe new life into bond.

How excited on a scale of 1-10 are you for "No Time To Die?

And on a scale of 1-10 how do you think it's going to fair? Giving it a rating I get it's not easy, but let's say hypertheically.

if say
Casino & Goldfinger were 8

Die Another Day  Quantum of Solace are a 6.
Of course again all subjective.

Some of us might score Quantum higher just like we might score Licence or Majestys as time has been kind to them, I think more of us now appreciate them for not being the latest bond film, I feel an extra pressure goes with the latest entry.
Among other things like the rough bond of licence is present in our current bond.

Some of us have also come to realise Peter Hunt's directing of majestys is pretty spectacular also.

I think there's a chance, this might be the case with spectre when it's no long the latest and its cemented next to bond 25 nicely, and we no longer have to end it with Madeline and bond driving away. 
Straight after we can pop "No Time To Die" on,
I think this might help us feel slightly less deflated at the prospect the ending was a little meh.
Don't get me wrong the John Glen ending is a nice call back
But I'm sure I'm not the only one who's quite excited at the prospect of the Db5 getting blown up it's been used alot.

I do look forward to seeing the Aston Martin v8 Vantage make an appear however.
Wonder if Tim Dalton might make a small cameo, could be cool.

52

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

Just finished up watching true detective season 1 again  bearing in mind I'm more of a movie fanatic than tv.
I actually think that it's a masterpiece, story is a nice slow burner which builds and builds, some nice side plots that feel in keeping with the main story. The acting is absolutely excellent, the script is stellar. The cinematography is beautiful.
The music is moody and atmospheric. Glad I own this one on blu ray as I'll be sure to watch it again.

Also started watching beasts of no nation again is really good too starts of with some parts actually quite funny then really turns into a pretty horrific movie. Like I say I've yet to see it but what I have seen was really good.

I also brought sin nombre which is cary fukunaga first feature length movie will be sure to report back once I've given it a watch.

I've said it more than once but I'll say it again, what I've seen of cary fukunaga work so far instills me with a large amount of confidence for "No Time to die" I have no doubt the script is going to be good no doubt fukunaga is going to get a great performance out of his actors after what I've seen with true detective. I think he seems a very hands on director and comes across very confidence and sure of what he's trying to achieve in his movies in his audio commentaries.

Not to mention it's likely to look as beautiful as skyfall, as it's not being shot by roger deakins but linus singren who made la la land, first man and American hustle look pretty amazing.

Plus there using IMAX cameras so it could look pretty epic like some of nolan's pictures.

Lastly I can't wait to get my hands on Dan Romers take on bond, I wonder if there will be slight spoilers in the cue names.

53

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

This may well turn out to be a great Bond film -- I suspect it will be bigger and more exciting that either Skyfall or Spectre, but that's not a tough proposition.  However, I found TD Season 1 to be a bore.  I tried to binge watch it one afternoon and gave up.  I came back to finish it, but it was tough.  Too repetitive, too self-important.  It didn't help that a lot of the dialogue spoken by the McConnaughey character was seemingly plagiarized from another writer.  Though I thought Goldeneye was disappointing and nothing special in the directing department, Casino Royale was remarkably good, in part because it relied on more a more straightforward but inventive style.

54

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

Gassy Man wrote:

This may well turn out to be a great Bond film -- I suspect it will be bigger and more exciting that either Skyfall or Spectre, but that's not a tough proposition.  However, I found TD Season 1 to be a bore.  I tried to binge watch it one afternoon and gave up.  I came back to finish it, but it was tough.  Too repetitive, too self-important.  It didn't help that a lot of the dialogue spoken by the McConnaughey character was seemingly plagiarized from another writer.  Though I thought Goldeneye was disappointing and nothing special in the directing department, Casino Royale was remarkably good, in part because it relied on more a more straightforward but inventive style.

Fair comment there I actually didn't binge watch true detective I
Think you lose something in that.
I also wasn't drawn to true detective right away it took time as I've gotten older though I've tended to grow more towards things that take there time.

Do you by any chance like any movies made by the coen brothers?

Also what do you mean when you say McConaugheys character took writing from another writer and past it off as there own? I'd be interested to know where you heard this from or you saw something where a character was very similar.

Did the writer steal from another writer or where they simply inspired by or paying tribute too?

It's been said before john William's stole from many composers including Korngold but I think it's more of a case that his music was on the temp tracks and Lucas wanted something similar.
Once people hear a piece of music so many times it's almost like it's hard to replace it with anything else.

Last edited by You'veHadYourSix (17th Sep 2019 19:49)

55

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

I love about half the Coen brothers and am indifferent to the rest.  The two brothers often switch off on directing chores, and one of them likes ponderous, character-driven tragedies and the other one makes the better movies -- Miller's Crossing, The Big Lewbowski, Fargo, True Grit, No Country for Old Men, and so forth.  Of anyone making mainstream films today -- and they've crossed over into that realm -- they're easily the most talented.  They seem to understand the vital elements of filmmaking, such as framing and staging, but at the same time, are able to have some thankfully limited postmodern sensibilities (their reliance on comic violence).

The controversy about the plagiarism has its defenders and its detractors, but this article covers the basics:  https://www.vox.com/2014/8/7/5975769/tr … sm-a-guide

The thing is, a commercial industry like TV and filmmaking isn't concerned about plagiarism, which is why it uses euphemisms like "influenced by" or "inspired by."  It's only concerned about copyright infringement, which is where they get sued and can lose money.  So, their "artists" are free to plagiarize all they want, and they may even get awards for it, so long as it makes money. 

https://www.vox.com/2014/8/7/5975769/tr … sm-a-guide

But anyone who writes -- and I count myself among those people -- is offended when someone takes the idea or expression and claims it as their own.  Unfortunately, this happens all the time with commercial art, usually because struggling artists don't have the resources to fight a battery of corporate lawyers for years. 

Even when they do, it turns into a situation like Jack McClory versus Ian Fleming.  And in that situation, it was patently more obvious Fleming took McClory's ideas and ran with them without any compensation.

Music is trickier.  There are thousands and thousands of words but only a few notes.  It's true that the combination possible is
virtually infinite, but there are also standard beats, rhythms, and structures that define, in particular, orchestral music. 

There is no resolution to the plagiarism thing, by the way.  The person who plagiarizes can always claim the inspiration defense or say they're paying homage.  That's why copyright infringement tries to use a more concrete standard, the challenge being it's far more literal.

The more recent Star Trek movies and series are required to change around 25% or more of the aesthetic design of the starships, make up, and costumes to avoid having to pay royalties to the people who originally designed them, or so articles are claiming.  This has to do with the complex way in which the Star Trek franchise has evolved and been acquired by different networks and companies.  This is a copyright issue.  Similarly, a plagiarist could argue they changed enough that it's now an original expression.

56

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

It appears that the plagiarism allegations were not directed at Fukunaga, but Nic Pizzolatto, who did most of the writing for True Detective Season 1........

57

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

Gassy Man wrote:

I love about half the Coen brothers and am indifferent to the rest.  The two brothers often switch off on directing chores, and one of them likes ponderous, character-driven tragedies and the other one makes the better movies -- Miller's Crossing, The Big Lewbowski, Fargo, True Grit, No Country for Old Men, and so forth.  Of anyone making mainstream films today -- and they've crossed over into that realm -- they're easily the most talented.  They seem to understand the vital elements of filmmaking, such as framing and staging, but at the same time, are able to have some thankfully limited postmodern sensibilities (their reliance on comic violence).

The controversy about the plagiarism has its defenders and its detractors, but this article covers the basics:  https://www.vox.com/2014/8/7/5975769/tr … sm-a-guide

The thing is, a commercial industry like TV and filmmaking isn't concerned about plagiarism, which is why it uses euphemisms like "influenced by" or "inspired by."  It's only concerned about copyright infringement, which is where they get sued and can lose money.  So, their "artists" are free to plagiarize all they want, and they may even get awards for it, so long as it makes money. 

https://www.vox.com/2014/8/7/5975769/tr … sm-a-guide

But anyone who writes -- and I count myself among those people -- is offended when someone takes the idea or expression and claims it as their own.  Unfortunately, this happens all the time with commercial art, usually because struggling artists don't have the resources to fight a battery of corporate lawyers for years. 

Even when they do, it turns into a situation like Jack McClory versus Ian Fleming.  And in that situation, it was patently more obvious Fleming took McClory's ideas and ran with them without any compensation.

Music is trickier.  There are thousands and thousands of words but only a few notes.  It's true that the combination possible is
virtually infinite, but there are also standard beats, rhythms, and structures that define, in particular, orchestral music. 

There is no resolution to the plagiarism thing, by the way.  The person who plagiarizes can always claim the inspiration defense or say they're paying homage.  That's why copyright infringement tries to use a more concrete standard, the challenge being it's far more literal.

The more recent Star Trek movies and series are required to change around 25% or more of the aesthetic design of the starships, make up, and costumes to avoid having to pay royalties to the people who originally designed them, or so articles are claiming.  This has to do with the complex way in which the Star Trek franchise has evolved and been acquired by different networks and companies.  This is a copyright issue.  Similarly, a plagiarist could argue they changed enough that it's now an original expression.

Nice lengthy bit of info there really enjoyed reading that.
You say you do abit of writing, what sort of stuff do you write?

58

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

ajb007/cheers Textbooks, literary and genre short stories (horror, thriller), grants and proposals, nonfiction articles, and all sorts of business documents, including copy for Web sites and annual reports and publications. I've worked on a few movie proposals with others but nothing serious.  Most publications don't have my name since they're work-for-hire; some writing is under a pseudonym.  I've got a few novel drafts in the can, including a spy story, though they're not final drafts.  I'm on the Web so much because I spend so much time writing.  I'm an academic. The plan is to write and consult full time when I retire, which won't be for a bit.   ajb007/cheers

59

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

Good stuff.

Okay so most of us are aware that a fair few of the bond movies aren't great but like most things even that statement is subjective. Yes I'm a fan of die another day.
I dunno maybe when you live with something long enough you learn to accept it has a world changing CGI tsunami surfing
Scene in it.

Any how mr gas mann you being a writer I was wondering what you consider to be one of the strongest and one of the weakest bond films in terms of script, story and anything that might be influenced by the writers.

60

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

My personal preference is for those in the Connery/Lazenby era.  I'm least impressed by those in the Brosnan era, though a few Moore films compete.  The rest falls in between, with the Craig films at the top but not quite as good as anything in the Connery/Lazenby era, even if Casino Royale is close. 

A problem with comparisons though, beyond the Ian Fleming source materials being less available past the 60s and 70s, is that films over time aimed for a younger audience.  Goldfinger, for instance, was made with adults in mind, not teenagers.  So the quality of writing is affected in part by who the film sees as the primary audience. 

Still, modern films tend to be rigidly constructed based on character arcs and the like.  They tend to favor minimalist dialogue and character development (with much of the character development being trivia about the character's past or psychological disposition peppering the story) but to push the action, stunts, and special effects to often increasingly absurd levels.  The obsession with making any story personal to the main character is a holdover from how films moved from the studio system to the "auteur" stage in the 70s and 80s.  To me, it's silly.  So, my tastes lean toward a film where a conversation -- such as the dinner one in Dr. No -- or a golf match -- such as the one in Goldfinger -- can be cleverly constructed to say much more than a 25-minute CGI scene.

So, overall, I'd say On Her Majesty's Secret Service is the best written Bond film while A View to a Kill or The World is Not Enough are the least impressive.   But even a Bond film that is closer to that end of the spectrum is pretty good compared to most action films.

61

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

OHMSS is a great film.
Does TWINE get points in the writers department for having
Elektra turn out to be the main villain and renard the henchman?

You know you say about adults movies and kids movies and I get that, growing up i cared very little for dialogue it was all about the action. Then being a musician it was all about the music. Now I'm alittle older I love a movie with a great story and script. I sometimes get annoyed if I'm watching something that's really good then out of nowhere there's loads of swearing and I'm like no it just feels so lazy.

Unless its Tarantino or something, sometimes that works.
I guess it might have something to do with the actor delivering the lines also and the range they have in using f bombs!!

Can you say mu#$a F@$ker, 1000 different ways Samuel Jackson can.   ajb007/lol

62

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

On Her Majesty's Secret Service is, to me, the best Bond film story, and the writing supports that.  It's not the most fun -- that nod goes to Goldfinger, which is directed better -- nor the best film -- that nod goes to From Russia with Love, which is written almost as well but a better production.

It may sound contradictory since On Her Majesty's Secret Service seems so personal a film, but that's not entirely true.  Bond's chasing down Blofeld is still extant of his relationship with Tracy until the two stories converge.  It unfolds naturally, the primary difference here being that Bond more deeply falls in love with the Bond girl, who always ends up threatened by the villain anyway.  There's nothing as ham-fisted as Blofeld being Bond's foster brother or whatever in Spectre.  The film is also part of a series and not a one-off, and it introduces the deeply personal element at a time when that wasn't simply part of the formula.

The writing in On Her Majesty's Secret Service is the most solid because it's the most human and grounded, even though the movie more or less sticks to formula.  Bond is treated not as the hero but as a character.  This happens on occasion -- its bookend, Casino Royale, for instance, is more a movie about James Bond than a James Bond movie -- and the films of the Connery era arguably did more in this regard and more consistently than most of what followed.  On Her Majesty's Secret Service is framed as a tragedy, full of irony (Bond is glib and carefree at the beginning while Tracy is suicidal; at the end, when Tracy is happiest and has everything to live for, she's gunned down and Bond is left broken).   It's left up to the viewer to decide if Bond really saved her life or got her killed by association.

In between, there's action, romance, suspense, and comedy.   It delivers with stunts, chases, and set pieces, albeit more realistically framed than most other Bond films, right down to Blofeld, equally tired of the chase, just wanting amnesty and retirement.  There are some great lines -- even Bond's usual sophomoric quips, like "At least for tonight," take on greater significance as the story travels toward its sad conclusion.  Of course, nearly all of this is in the book, but given how many Bond films often have comparatively little to do with Fleming's literary character, this is one of the purest adaptations while also making its own contributions.

The main problem with The World is Not Enough is pretty typical of a modern film, which is to say, it raises a lot of issues and then does little or nothing to deliver on them.  The idea of a terminally ill villain who can no longer feel pain should be terrifying and great fodder for action and suspense, yet almost nothing is done with the Carlyle character.  He ends up being a garden variety thug who has, what, two or three tepid scenes with Bond?  Even the often puerile The Man with the Golden Gun, another movie that promised more than it delivered in these regards, let Bond and Scaramanga interact on occasion during the film.

Elektra being the true villain comes across more as a stunt -- a twist that's supposed to make us say, "Golly, didn't see that coming.
They're so clever." Again, there's no build up, no real emotional weight to it in the construction of the story, despite the ski scene that starts with almost a shot-for-shot remake of the one from On Her Majesty's Secret Service.  I guess we're supposed to harken back to Tracy with Elektra and do the work of the writer to make the emotional connection.  Consider how much is told to us in expository dialogue -- how Renard got shot, how Elektra was kidnapped and tortured, how her father wheeled and dealed, how M and he have been friends since they were young, and so on.  We never once see any of this developed onscreen, but our knowledge of such is somehow supposed to fill in the emotional blanks for us.

Compare that to On Her Majesty's Secret Service.  About the only thing we're told in this respect that compares is how Draco came to meet and marry Tracy's mother, and then how Tracy lived too greedily to get to the state she was at the beginning of the film -- when Bond enters the picture.  There's a dreaded montage scene of their romance, which they can't resist repeating in Casino Royale, but it's still better than a character just talking about it onscreen.  But pretty much everything else is shown to us, and it's done in an organic way.

The World is Not Enough could have stopped after the first 20 minutes.  At least nearly all of that is narrative, and it's good.  There are a few, I guess, inventive puns later -- "Christmas came twice this year (ho, ho, ho)" and "I never miss."

To me, the best written of Brosnan's Bonds is Tomorrow Never Dies, which would have been better under its original title Tomorrow Never Lies.  It, too, suffers from too much exposition, but by gum, the villain actually does something, unlike in the overrated Goldeneye, where as with Renard, a rogue 00 agent -- another fantastic idea for a villain they do almost nothing with-- is just another pretty ordinary bad guy with a Russian general and a computer nerd on the payroll.

The second best Bond film in terms of writing is Dr. No, and if it wasn't for some of the pulp fiction lines that make it seem more like a 40s or 50s movie, I might even argue it's the best.  This movie not only establishes the Bond character but also creates the template for the Bond villain, and that dinner scene is never eclipsed in any other Bond film, though many of them have their version of it.

63

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

So, to bring this all back to No Time to Die -- whose generic title already makes me fear we'll get a fairly standard Bond film but with muddled modern sensibilities -- I would love to see some real scenes, with real dialogue and emotion, and not just going through the motions to get to the action set pieces, in a real, coherent story. 

Casino Royale for the most part did that -- it only needed another 10 minutes of actual romance rather than the sketch we got, but it was the best written and directed Bond by far in many years -- but it was downhill from there. 

The vastly overrated Skyfall, arguably the best of the other Craig Bond scripts, got by mostly on sentimentality, which it has no shortage of, but its script was still just crap.  It's one of those movies where rather than the story unfolding organically and with some hint of logic, plot elements are jammed in to make the rest of it work, with questions abounding:

1)  Why does MI:6's greatest computer hacker even need to hire a hit man to steal a laptop hard drive?
2)  Why is a 00 sent to retrieve said hard drive, along with two agents who apparently are neither as skilled nor experienced?
3)  How is it Bond is fitted with a tracker in Casino Royale (and again in Spectre) in an age of facial recognition and cameras everywhere, yet both he and Silva can just disappear off the grid without effort?
4)  How could Silva's plan to infiltrate MI:6 possibly have predicted every last detail, such as where Bond would be standing precisely when an Underground train is passing where a bomb somehow has been planted by somebody well beforehand and that a hearing on MI:6's relevancy would be scheduled later that day?
5)  How is it that Silva has destroyed MI:6 headquarters and outed agents worldwide but M's home is neither guarded nor treated as a target, too, even while MI:6 is now on "war footing"?
6) If Bond has been declared legally dead, to the point that his family estate is being sold off, why are his effects in storage, and who pocketed the money when his flat was sold?  If MI:6 owned the flat, why did they sell it?
7) Just why does Bond think going to Skyfall somehow evens the odds when apparently he has no plan whatsoever for when he gets there other than to lure Silva there?
8) If Bond's goal was to stop Silva and keep M alive, how is it it he's not beyond despair for getting her killed?

I won't even go into the issue of Kincaid and the flashlight since he's an amateur nor all the expository dialogue, such as Silva's tedious introduction out of the elevator, telling us a story about rats that could as easily have been shown to us in an actual scene, still with the voiceover if they felt the need, Silva's recounting of the torture and cyanide incident, Kincaid's recounting of the young Bond's night in the priest hole (boy, that doesn't sound right), or M's filling us in on why Silva got betrayed. 

Any or all of these elements could be easily fixed with minor script revisions, which is why it's crap.  Silva never needed the hard drive -- he just wanted to lure Bond into a trap and tells him so later.  M's house isn't unguarded -- she's left herself vulnerable in an attempt to get Silva to make his move, only he doesn't take the bait, and Bond figures this out.  Does M have a death wish from her guilt?  This foreshadows the climax, as it's not Bond who chooses to go to Skyfall but M -- again, in an attempt to flush Silva out -- and Bond is reluctant for both personal and professional reasons to go along with the plan; Mallory is to dispatch reinforcements, but Silva's men cut them down before they can arrive. 

My expectation is Bond 25 will have a script more similar to Skyfall than to Casino Royale.  It'll be jazzed up with some swipes at misogyny and with moments of female and gender empowerment to show that Bond now has a 21st century sensibility or whatever.  But I'm not anticipating something truly character-driven that makes great sense.  I could be wrong, and I hope I am.  But the Craig era started by setting a high standard and hasn't lived up to it in terms of the writing.

64

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

Do you think purvis and wade are to blame at all?
Or do you think they are simply often the scapegoats?

You should do an audio commentary on your thoughts on
One of the bond films, could be interesting.

65

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

I completely agree with Gassy Man. Nicely written critique, too.

I really like CR but it's not perfect. It's just quite a good film, ish. For a Bond. Then QoS I actually really like, even though the quality is lesser than CR. Skyfall I find massively overrated as well. Everyone loved it, but to me almost nothing made sense. Worse than QoS for me. Then Spectre. Huge disappointment. Waltz was awful (blame the script, whatever), and the entire plot was just useless. I hope NTTD is better.

I hope it's good, but I won't hold my breath.

IMO each Craig film has been worse than the previous...

"It is better to be as well dressed as possible to stave off, at least for a very little bit, the total collapse of civilization"

66

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

You'veHadYourSix wrote:

Do you think purvis and wade are to blame at all?
Or do you think they are simply often the scapegoats?

You should do an audio commentary on your thoughts on
One of the bond films, could be interesting.

Not all of it.  Casino Royale is the only script of theirs I think is better than average, and Paul Haggis had to be brought in to polish it up.  At the same time, I've read here and there about how they had other more creative ideas but somehow these don't make it to the screen.  They could be mundane, formulaic writers or they could be trying to bring something better to the screen but keep getting overridden by other interests.

Film is a collaborative process, and when there's too many cooks in the kitchen, the result is usually a mess.  That's why the better commercial film directors -- Billy Wilder, Alfred Hitchcock, and so forth -- tended to work with the same writer(s) or wrote scripts themselves.  Hitchcock in particular was known to put actors in their place.  From his point of view, it was the director's job to have the vision for makes it to the screen from the script.  Actors were to create the characters from the script, not write and direct.

But when directors, producers, and actors start meddling, ideas usually get diluted.  Is that the writer's fault?  Maybe, maybe not.  I suppose it depends on how strong the script is to begin with it and how turf-centered everyone else is.  Someone is supposed to keep track of whether it all makes sense, but after shooting four hours or more of film, some editor often is tasked with putting something together than makes sense.  In fact, editing may be the most important part of the process.

Eh, I babble about this sort of thing, among other, when I teach.  I don't know that anyone else beyond the generous people on these boards needs to be inflicted with it.   ajb007/lol

67

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

martini wrote:

I completely agree with Gassy Man. Nicely written critique, too.

I really like CR but it's not perfect. It's just quite a good film, ish. For a Bond. Then QoS I actually really like, even though the quality is lesser than CR. Skyfall I find massively overrated as well. Everyone loved it, but to me almost nothing made sense. Worse than QoS for me. Then Spectre. Huge disappointment. Waltz was awful (blame the script, whatever), and the entire plot was just useless. I hope NTTD is better.

I hope it's good, but I won't hold my breath.

IMO each Craig film has been worse than the previous...

ajb007/cheers

Skyfall is one of those movies masquerading at being far more clever than it really is.  All of the things that don't make sense are written off with "But Silva is a mad genius -- if we don't tell you, you can just assume he had a way."  Even if we assume that lazy explanation, why doesn't Bond make sense?  I still want to know just what strategy Bond had in mind by going back to Skyfall?  And why he doesn't personally feel responsible for M's demise? 

I thought Waltz should play Blofeld from the time I saw him in Inglorious Basterds.  The problem is the script gave him almost nothing to do.  This is a huge problem with Bond scripts and has been for at least 25 years.  Casino Royale is an exception -- both LeChiffre and Mr. White were given adequate screen time and development to impact the events of the story.  Marginally, so were Green and Silva in their films, but still nothing on the order of Blofeld in the older films or Goldfinger. 

Modern Bond films also waste a lot of time with ponderous shots where nothing of import is happening -- like Bond on the skiff to the Macao casino or traveling up river to find Mr. White -- and elaborate action set pieces, to the degree that there's not as much time left for character development and onscreen dialogue exchanges.  It's interesting that people tend to think older movies are slower, but if you watch the Connery Bonds in particular, you'll see they move a lot faster.  They just don't spend as much time on these other distractions.  Again, Casino Royale is better in this department.  We see Bond simply walking up to the casinos -- his body language communicates who he is and his intent.  That's a lot more interesting than a guy just standing rigidly still in some arty pose while the camera eats up precious seconds showing us the set.

68

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

1)  Why does MI:6's greatest computer hacker even need to hire a hit man to steal a laptop hard drive? [Because he can't get the info otherwise]
2)  Why is a 00 sent to retrieve said hard drive, along with two agents who apparently are neither as skilled nor experienced? [The deal went sideways when Patrice intervened and Bond was called in as cleanup]
3)  How is it Bond is fitted with a tracker in Casino Royale (and again in Spectre) in an age of facial recognition and cameras everywhere, yet both he and Silva can just disappear off the grid without effort? [They're spies. And no tracker in Skyfall!].
4)  How could Silva's plan to infiltrate MI:6 possibly have predicted every last detail, such as where Bond would be standing precisely when an Underground train is passing where a bomb somehow has been planted by somebody well beforehand and that a hearing on MI:6's relevancy would be scheduled later that day? [He had bombs set to go off all around London and lured Bond to that location]
5)  How is it that Silva has destroyed MI:6 headquarters and outed agents worldwide but M's home is neither guarded nor treated as a target, too, even while MI:6 is now on "war footing"?[I don't remember this but M makes it clear that she doesn't want a bunch of carnage]
6) If Bond has been declared legally dead, to the point that his family estate is being sold off, why are his effects in storage, and who pocketed the money when his flat was sold?  If MI:6 owned the flat, why did they sell it? [Nobody was living in it]
7) Just why does Bond think going to Skyfall somehow evens the odds when apparently he has no plan whatsoever for when he gets there other than to lure Silva there? [Silva's tech advantages would be limited, Bond would have the machine gun equipped AM and he expected to find a small armory of hunting rifles that he could use to pick off Silva's men from 500+ yards.]
8) If Bond's goal was to stop Silva and keep M alive, how is it it he's not beyond despair for getting her killed? [He was.]

Hope that helps.

69

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

Interesting Response Gala Brand to Gas Mann's thoughts.
some interesting views, its nice reading something every now and then which really gets you thinking, hmm
you know i never looked at it that way.
Then getting another different spin on it all.
both perfectly valid points there.

ok so from a writing perspective from "No Time To Die"

what do you think most of us want out of it?
and how could it be achieved?

1) a brilliant villain?

2) possibly good henchmen?

3) a story which isn't predicable? (i appreciated theres been a few of these movies now) ajb007/smile

4) gadgets/minimal gadgets no gadgets?

5) strong dialogue and performance

6) snappy editing-quantum
slower editing- spectre
abit of both- casino
or other?

(i'll just state this hear also under editing, i agree wholehearted with your thoughts on editing "Gass Man" i'd love to know
how bond would have turned out if we hadn't had Peter Hunt from the get go.) 

7) a story thats grounded, or takes away from current reality

8) a film that recognises the current changes i.e metoo.
(i personally think that bond has often included the trends
and is apart of why its has evolved and lasted so long)

9) a score that echoes its title goldfinger, diamonds are forever (like the sound of clanging gold bars or twinkling diamonds)
i appreciated this one might take a bit of imagination but say for example the prospect of time, a score like dunkirk which has a real ticking feel.

a score which underscores throughout- spectre
it sits nicely in the film keeping it company throughout, but never shouting the bond theme "hey look yeah i'm over here"

A David Arnold Techno Trip- Twine & DAD- a score that can get us right pumped up like those of us that have the LA LA LAND records realise of twine and Show me the Money burns into Come in 007 your time is up. or the crazy bombast of bond goes to iceland in Die another day.

A gritty/darker score- Casino royale/licence to kill. bits of african rundown, the stairwell fight, fall of a house in venice. licence to kill gun barrel, licence revoked, escape from wavekrest.

synth driven score- FYEO/Spy Who Loved Me- Runaway, ski, shoot, jump. Bond77

A John Barry classic style bond score- Octopussy, A View to A Kill.
I personally don't want this on the scale of note for note, im sure like most consider barry to be the best. Obviously composer's can be inspired by or pay tribute to barry. But i don't think we want a carbon copy of his sound, i think it might just be an insult to his legacy really.

something different- something we've yet to have.


And anything else you guys think of course.   ajb007/smile

Last edited by You'veHadYourSix (19th Sep 2019 17:29)

70

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

Gala Brand wrote:

1)  Why does MI:6's greatest computer hacker even need to hire a hit man to steal a laptop hard drive? [Because he can't get the info otherwise] That's just speculation -- there's nothing onscreen to confirm this.  It's like saying Silva used a helicopter at the end because no cars were available at the rental agency.
2)  Why is a 00 sent to retrieve said hard drive, along with two agents who apparently are neither as skilled nor experienced? [The deal went sideways when Patrice intervened and Bond was called in as cleanup]Again, speculation.  There's nothing onscreen to confirm this.  If anything, based on the timing and onscreen information, Bond is in the middle of the operation, not sent in after the fact.
3)  How is it Bond is fitted with a tracker in Casino Royale (and again in Spectre) in an age of facial recognition and cameras everywhere, yet both he and Silva can just disappear off the grid without effort? [They're spies. And no tracker in Skyfall!].Speculation.  If spies are as good as this, they would never be able to find one another.  And Bond does get the radio tracker late,r which is how the helicopters get to Silva's island.
4)  How could Silva's plan to infiltrate MI:6 possibly have predicted every last detail, such as where Bond would be standing precisely when an Underground train is passing where a bomb somehow has been planted by somebody well beforehand and that a hearing on MI:6's relevancy would be scheduled later that day? [He had bombs set to go off all around London and lured Bond to that location]What is the onscreen evidence of this?  How did he lure Bond to the location when he wouldn't even know if Bond would still be at MI:6?
5)  How is it that Silva has destroyed MI:6 headquarters and outed agents worldwide but M's home is neither guarded nor treated as a target, too, even while MI:6 is now on "war footing"?[I don't remember this but M makes it clear that she doesn't want a bunch of carnage] If she doesn't want a bunch of carnage, why is she even staying in her own home?  If MI:6 is on "war footing," why is she not staying there?  She's arguably the most important person in the organization.
6) If Bond has been declared legally dead, to the point that his family estate is being sold off, why are his effects in storage, and who pocketed the money when his flat was sold?  If MI:6 owned the flat, why did they sell it? [Nobody was living in it]That still doesn't answer the question.  If no one is living in the flat and MI:6 somehow has the authority to sell it, then why not also sell Bond's effects, too?  What is the purpose of storing his personal belongings?  And if MI:6 owns an expensive flat in a wealthy section of London, why not just keep it for the next 007?
7) Just why does Bond think going to Skyfall somehow evens the odds when apparently he has no plan whatsoever for when he gets there other than to lure Silva there? [Silva's tech advantages would be limited, Bond would have the machine gun equipped AM and he expected to find a small armory of hunting rifles that he could use to pick off Silva's men from 500+ yards.]Onscreen evidence?  The best we get is that he's dismayed that there's not much left.  But even considering Bond might plan to play sniper -- which we have zero confirmation of -- that doesn't make sense when the plan we're shown is to hole up in the house.  In fact, nothing really makes sense.  How did Bond know of Mallory's leaving "bread crumbs" for Silva to follow?  Why doesn't Mallory dispatch reinforcements?  Why would Bond assume Silva's tech advantages are limited when he shows up in a heavily armed helicopter with a commando team?  I could almost give credit to the idea that Bond's plan was only to hide at Skyfall, but then Bond says onscreen that he knows Silva is coming.  There's nothing about Bond's plan that makes any sense strategically.
8) If Bond's goal was to stop Silva and keep M alive, how is it it he's not beyond despair for getting her killed? [He was.]Where onscreen does he say this?  He appears to grieve for some moments and then spend a lot of time on the rooftop staring.  But I don't see a moment where he seems affected by guilt at all, including in Spectre.

Hope that helps.

You've done more work here than the screenwriters -- which is why it's a lazy script.  I appreciate the effort, but there's very little onscreen to corroborate the speculation here. 

What you're doing is what Star Trek fans do to explain away inconsistencies when the continuity is disrupted.  Why didn't they use the shuttlecraft?  Oh, it was broken that week.  How is it Vulcans can't lie, but Spock does more than once during the series?  He's half human, so he can invoke that side of his heritage when necessary.  Why don't they just beam the genesis device into oblivion?  They couldn't get a lock on because of the nebula.

Better scripts don't require speculation.  Major plot issues are answered concretely either in dialogue or action or both.  Skyfall's is so sloppy in this regard, people have to do what you're doing, though my suspicion is the writer and director just assumed nobody would pay that close attention.  They bundled something together, put it out there, it made money, and that's that.

We don't need minor, obvious actions explained.  Did Bond open the car door before he got in?  Yeah, there's no other way except to break the window, which is intact.  How did Bond know where the warehouse was located?  I dunno, he googled it?  It's not hiding.  Where did M get that bulldog figurine?  A store.  How did Bond get back to London?  Airplane?  Then maybe a taxi?  These sorts of ordinary things have zero bearing on the plot. 

Now, compare this to the script for Casino Royale.  Why was LeChiffre going to bomb the plane?  He's a mathematical genius who needs to crash the stock to cover gambling losses.  Why doesn't M just have him assassinated?  She wants to shut his operation down and not just eliminate him personally.  Why does LeChiffre poison Bond?  He needs Bond out of the game and to make it look like natural causes.  Why is Vesper put on the mission?  She controls the finances and is a check-and-balance against Bond being reckless.  Why does Vesper turn on him?  She's being blackmailed by LeChiffre.  And so on.

The only thing the script doesn't really answer is whether or not Mathis really was a double agent working against Bond.  That's not even fully resolved in Quantum of Solace.  However, the implication is he was, in fact, a double agent since MI:6 takes him away in Casino Royale.  So it's really Quantum of Solace that muddles things, even though it's suggested in the film he wasn't (the girlfriend says he wasn't, but then Mathis' final words make it less certain.)

71

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

You'veHadYourSix wrote:

Interesting Response Gala Brand to Gas Mann's thoughts.
some interesting views, its nice reading something every now and then which really gets you thinking, hmm
you know i never looked at it that way.
Then getting another different spin on it all.
both perfectly valid points there.

ok so from a writing perspective from "No Time To Die"

what do you think most of us want out of it?
and how could it be achieved?

1) a brilliant villain?

2) possibly good henchmen?

3) a story which isn't predicable? (i appreciated theres been a few of these movies now) ajb007/smile

4) gadgets/minimal gadgets no gadgets?

5) strong dialogue and performance

6) snappy editing-quantum
slower editing- spectre
abit of both- casino
or other?

(i'll just state this hear also under editing, i agree wholehearted with your thoughts on editing "Gass Man" i'd love to know
how bond would have turned out if we hadn't had Peter Hunt from the get go.) 

7) a story thats grounded, or takes away from current reality

8) a film that recognises the current changes i.e metoo.
(i personally think that bond has often included the trends
and is apart of why its has evolved and lasted so long)

9) a score that echoes its title goldfinger, diamonds are forever (like the sound of clanging gold bars or twinkling diamonds)
i appreciated this one might take a bit of imagination but say for example the prospect of time, a score like dunkirk which has a real ticking feel.

a score which underscores throughout- spectre
it sits nicely in the film keeping it company throughout, but never shouting the bond theme "hey look yeah i'm over here"

A David Arnold Techno Trip- Twine & DAD- a score that can get us right pumped up like those of us that have the LA LA LAND records realise of twine and Show me the Money burns into Come in 007 your time is up. or the crazy bombast of bond goes to iceland in Die another day.

A gritty/darker score- Casino royale/licence to kill. bits of african rundown, the stairwell fight, fall of a house in venice. licence to kill gun barrel, licence revoked, escape from wavekrest.

synth driven score- FYEO/Spy Who Loved Me- Runaway, ski, shoot, jump. Bond77

A John Barry classic style bond score- Octopussy, A View to A Kill.
I personally don't want this on the scale of note for note, im sure like most consider barry to be the best. Obviously composer's can be inspired by or pay tribute to barry. But i don't think we want a carbon copy of his sound, i think it might just be an insult to his legacy really.

something different- something we've yet to have.


And anything else you guys think of course.   ajb007/smile

I'd like a believable adult relationship between Madeleine and Bond.

72

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

Any Bond script has to start with the villain.  What he or she does puts everything else in motion.  The rest is just decoration.

I want a Bond with real emotions and strong dialogue.  If that happens, everything else will fall into place.  If it doesn't happen, everything else will have to be used to try to cover up for it.

It's been done, even with the movies that produced great action and suspense -- Dr. No, From Russia with Love, Goldfinger, Thunderball, You Only Live Twice, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, and so forth.  It can be done again.

73

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

Wow, three pages already about thoughts where a movie no-one has ever seen will sit in the rankings...

74

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

Jag wrote:

Wow, three pages already about thoughts where a movie no-one has ever seen will sit in the rankings...

Positively shocking.  ajb007/lol

75

Re: Thoughts on where bond 25 will sit in the rankings.

and its about to be 4