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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

caractacus potts wrote:

you guys are writing longer posts than I do, I cant read all that!

Gassy Man wrote:

... Moonraker was not just a huge hit, it was a cultural phenomenon.  Its camp may seem odd to some fans, especially those who weren't around then, but it was made only 10 years after the Batman TV series and two years after Star Wars.  ...

This is true, ...Spy.../Moonraker were a very huge one/two punch that made the Bond franchise as fashionable as it ever has been in my lifetime.
So successful, that Don Adams was able to make a full length Get Smart feature film the next year (it was dreadful, as I recall), and it had a precredits sequence that was a parody of Moonraker's fight-for-the-parachute sequence.
Critics at the time said the idea of parodying Moonraker was redundant.


Anecdotally, me and my school chums flocked to see Moonraker, having all loved the previous film, only to realise it was really corny and we'd "outgrown" this sort of thing.

I actually think the reputation of Moonraker has improved over the years. At the time, I certainly did not appreciate (a) it had John Barry music, (b) a better villain, and (c) a better written leading lady character, just that it was the exact same plot and gimmicks as the previous film, just more expensive and stoopider. As a thirteen year old, I was already cynical about these sort of sequels. And that was the general feeling amongst my schoolchums and the newspaper critics at the time, too.

It was a huge movie, and it ran in theaters for quite some time. The lines to see it went around the block.  I don't recall hearing anything negative about it until years later as well -- beyond the usual dismissal of people who just thought Bond was dumb.  At the time, even some of our teachers talked about how much they liked it.  Because it was PG, it was also what in those days passed for a "family film," as the Disney movies were no longer in vogue, and audiences for the most part considered themselves more sophisticated than that.  So, whole families and not just ardent Bond fans went to see the spectacle. There was hardly more sex and violence than you could see on TV, but everything was bigger and more expensive.

The follow up, For Your Eyes Only, is where people were confused.  They'd expected something even bigger than Moonraker but instead got a more grounded story.  At the time, there wasn't nearly as much respect for it as now. Bond in the 70s had been equated with escapism, but the 80s seemed to want to tilt him more toward realism.  This is when critics really began to debate the efficacy of Bond anymore.

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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

By the way, people are throwing around terms like this thread is about a quantitative study.  Not even close.  Doesn't apply.

Revelator has posited marketing would have changed the outcome of a historical event.  There's no way to prove that conclusively one way or the other.  The closest anyone might come is to do experiments to test the hypothesis -- they might, for instance, find a thousand people at random who've never seen Licence to Kill and show 500 of them more marketing materials than the other 500 and gauge whether or not they're more interested in seeing the film afterward.  But even then, there are all sorts of variables to control -- age, gender, audience tastes, familiarity with Bond in general, and so forth.  It would be a study extant of the context in which Licence to Kill appeared in 1989.  It might suggest a pattern that could be replicated in other studies and, therefore, be more generalizable, but it wouldn't be absolutely conclusive.  Hardly.

Anecdotal evidence and personal opinion overlap, but they're not automatically the same thing.  There's a difference between an eyewitness in a bank robbery objectively reporting that two men entered with guns drawn and demanded money and that the eyewitness subjectively considers both of them short.  As actual evidence -- testimony at a court trial -- it may be enough to convict.  Anecdotal evidence is used all the time -- it's often the starting point for any research, as it involves observation.  Even in a court trial that involves DNA testing, the technicians involved with the collection and testing must testify anecdotally that they followed all the proper procedures.  For historical research, it may be key.  Indeed, historians use letters, testimonials, personal statements, journal entries, and the like all the time to investigate events for which they have no other way.  Psychologists rely on a anecdotal evidence to diagnose and treat patients.  While there are limitations to anecdotal evidence, it may be all that's available because not everything -- indeed, quite a few things -- can't be investigated with quantitative methods.

Beyond eyewitness testimony, your physician uses anecdotal evidence each time he or she asks you to describe the state of your health over a period of time.  In the absence of tests, your physician may even diagnose and prescribe treatment.

If you're looking for hard scientific data in a discussion about a 30-year-old movie, good luck.

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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

Gassy Man wrote:

If you're looking for hard scientific data in a discussion about a 30-year-old movie featuring a weeping main actor, good luck.

I have corrected your last sentence, GM   ajb007/biggrin  ajb007/biggrin  ajb007/biggrin  ajb007/cheers

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

54

Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

Higgins wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:

If you're looking for hard scientific data in a discussion about a 30-year-old movie featuring a weeping main actor, good luck.

I have corrected your last sentence, GM   ajb007/biggrin  ajb007/biggrin  ajb007/biggrin  ajb007/cheers

Haha!

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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

A big thank you to all who responded. I know that LTK is a flawed movie and at the time not quite what James Bond fans and general movie goers had come expect. Still if things had been different behind the scenes(especially if longtime writer Richard Maibaum had not had to bow out early in pre-production due to the 1988 Writers Guild Strike) the budget was bigger to give audiences what they expected and had a better release date, I am sure that the movie would at least made some decent money at the Box Office.

PS: I think it is interesting to note that 19 years later, QOS was affected production wise by similar  issues. Despite having a really poor marketing campaign, QOS still managed to make some decent money at the Box Office.

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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

I think LTK is a great film, myself. Certainly in my top ten, and that goes for TLD as well.

Higgins seems to have made it his life's mission to hate on the film, and if he could erase Dalton's two from existence, he definitely would, regardless of whether anyone else enjoyed them. I can't stand Craig, but I don't go on about it for years.

My Top 10 Bonds: Octopussy, Goldeneye, From Russia With Love, Tomorrow Never Dies, Licence to Kill, For Your Eyes Only, The Living Daylights, Moonraker, Goldfinger and The Spy Who Loved Me.

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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

PPK 7.65mm wrote:

PS: I think it is interesting to note that 19 years later, QOS was affected production wise by similar  issues. Despite having a really poor marketing campaign, QOS still managed to make some decent money at the Box Office.

QoS had a main actor who was well received by audiences and in general was not a bad movie.
It also did not look like a tv episode.

You are comparing apples and oranges

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

58

Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

DavidJones wrote:

Higgins seems to have made it his life's mission to hate on the film, and if he could erase Dalton's two from existence, he definitely would, regardless of whether anyone else enjoyed them. I can't stand Craig, but I don't go on about it for years.

Well, if you go back in this thread, I was very mild with my criticism.

Every couple of weeks, someone is coming up and explains LTK‘s lack of success with the release date and with the marketing campaign. This creating of an alternative reality is nothing else than ignoring the big white elephant in the room:

Dalton was not widely accepted by the audiences back then. Timboys must deal with it and it‘s no coincidence that his movies both tanked in the box office.

To say that MR was a bad movie and not well received back then - and thus only has been saved by a marketing campaign is another attempt to walking in La-La Land, where Dalton is King!

I will always defend Roger Moore and his movies, but have no problems admitting that he was visibly too old in AVTAK (and OP but that‘s another story - hint NSNA).
I personally have no problem with that but can accept that the broad audiences saw it differently and that certainly affected the financial success of the movie.
So a large part of the lack of success for AVTAK lies there and I don‘t even try explaining it with release date, poster design, competition, marketing budget, writers, supporting acts etc.

It‘s time that Timboys man up and do the same.

Last edited by Higgins (8th Sep 2019 07:10)

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

59

Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

Grindelwald wrote:

Actually you could see Bond on TV in the 70s , at least in the US.......but not as frequent as today

My quote was „we“ and here in Germany, 007 movies started on tv in the 90s  ajb007/wink

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

60

Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

Higgins wrote:
DavidJones wrote:

Higgins seems to have made it his life's mission to hate on the film, and if he could erase Dalton's two from existence, he definitely would, regardless of whether anyone else enjoyed them. I can't stand Craig, but I don't go on about it for years.

Well, if you go back in this thread, I was very mild with my criticism.

Every couple of weeks, someone is coming up and explains LTK‘s lack of success with the release date and with the marketing campaign. This creating of an alternative reality is nothing else than ignoring the big white elephant in the room:

Dalton was not widely accepted by the audiences back then. Timboys must deal with it and it‘s no coincidence that his movies both tanked in the box office.

To say that MR was a bad movie and not well received back then - and thus only has been saved by a marketing campaign is another attempt to walking in La-La Land, where Dalton is King!

I will always defend Roger Moore and his movies, but have no problems admitting that he was visibly too old in AVTAK (and OP but that‘s another story - hint NSNA).
I personally have no problem with that but can accept that the broad audiences saw it differently and that certainly affected the financial success of the movie.
So a large part of the lack of success for AVTAK lies there and I don‘t even try explaining it with release date, poster design, competition, marketing budget, writers, supporting acts etc.

It‘s time that Timboys man up and do the same.


Roger certainly looked too old in AVTAK - his sudden weight loss and facelift did him no favours - but I think he looked great in OP.

Dalton's two films couldn't be more different than each other. TLD is a serious, story-centered espionage story - that and FRWL are probably the only films which are. LTK, though, is an American film, top to tail, and I can see why they did that. Miami Vice was in its fifth year and was very popular on television, while Sly and Arnie were doing all those shoot-'em-up in film. I like the whole balmy, sun-drenched West Coast, everyone-wears-beige-and-pale-blue look of the thing. That, and the grittiness and vigilante plot meant it was very timely. 

Dalton was a fine Bond, in my view, and there's not a single moment when he's crying or tearful.

There's no getting away from the fact that summer 1989 was one of the biggest blockbuster seasons ever. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Dead Poets Society, Star Trek 5, Ghostbusters II, Batman, Honey I Shrunk the Kids, The Karate Kid III, Lethal Weapon 2 and When Harry Met Sally.

If I was going to the cinema with a few mates at that time, I don't think I'd have picked Licence to Kill either. Not because it's not a good film - I wouldn't have seen it at that point - but because everything else would look so exciting and new.

Even though several of those titles were sequels, they still weren't a twenty-five years old series.

I would probably have seen Indy, Batman, Lethal Weapon 2 and then LTK, and I'm a massive Bond fan. Also, all the films above, bar none, were American, which would likely mean that Americans would be more drawn to them.

Especially as, at the time, people were getting a bit nonchalant about Bond. There had been a film every year or two since 1962 and there had already been five that decade already.

It took a six year break, a nostalgia for the '60s and a seismic political shift for Bond to be welcomed back.

Last edited by DavidJones (8th Sep 2019 14:02)

My Top 10 Bonds: Octopussy, Goldeneye, From Russia With Love, Tomorrow Never Dies, Licence to Kill, For Your Eyes Only, The Living Daylights, Moonraker, Goldfinger and The Spy Who Loved Me.

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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

Still ignoring the big white elephant in the room?  ajb007/biggrin

Last edited by Higgins (9th Sep 2019 01:29)

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

DavidJones wrote:

Also, all the films above [Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Dead Poets Society, Star Trek 5, Ghostbusters II, Batman, Honey I Shrunk the Kids, The Karate Kid III, Lethal Weapon 2 and When Harry Met Sally], bar none, were American, which would likely mean that Americans would be more drawn to them.

not usually one to wave the flag, but speaking as a lifelong SCTV loyalist I must point out most of the talent behind Ghostbusters was Canadian (Aykroyd, Reitman, and Moranis), and Ramis and Murray had spent a lot of time in Toronto collaborating with their Second City pals.

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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

But Licence To Kill is set in both North America and South America for all of the movie. Surely that must count for something against that argument.

"...I have the oddest feeling we will be meeting again sometime..."
-Roger Moore's James Bond. RIP.
I have a YouTube channel on all things Bond (amongst other things, coming soon™).
The name's Bond and Beyond. It's currently on hold, though.

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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

Higgins wrote:

Still ignoring the big white elephant in the room?  ajb007/biggrin

What is the white elephant, then?

Last edited by DavidJones (8th Sep 2019 22:43)

My Top 10 Bonds: Octopussy, Goldeneye, From Russia With Love, Tomorrow Never Dies, Licence to Kill, For Your Eyes Only, The Living Daylights, Moonraker, Goldfinger and The Spy Who Loved Me.

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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

Hmmm...in short of conducting a blind taste test among a thousand guinea pigs or prop up a similarly absurd straw man argument, what’s a more reasonable alternative to “anecdotal stories”? (for what’s been dished out, “evidence” suggests too much credence than it deserves.)

Though not perfect, Wikipedia is just one of several sources and the wonderful thing is it can be corroborated or refuted with other publicly available documentation.  Batman 1989 and LTK as examples have very interesting histories about their development, marketing campaigns and the market conditions unique to their theatrical releases that contributed to their success and failure. What one can glean would be more reliable than say, the consensus of one’s grandaunt Thelma’s knitting group from 30 years ago.

"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....

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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

It's a shame we'll never know precisely why the film did so abysmally, why it was the lowest grossing official Bond film of all time -- just that it did and it is.

EDIT:  It is interesting that in multiple polls, Dalton ranks near the bottom in popularity as Bond.  In this poll, he secures that dubious honor in both the U.S. and the U.K., ahead of George Lazenby, whose On Her Majesty's Secret Service nonetheless earned nearly three quarters as much as Dalton's films combined in the U.S., adjusted for inflation.

https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment … ce-Brosnan

Last edited by Gassy Man (9th Sep 2019 02:48)

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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

DavidJones wrote:
Higgins wrote:
DavidJones wrote:

Higgins seems to have made it his life's mission to hate on the film, and if he could erase Dalton's two from existence, he definitely would, regardless of whether anyone else enjoyed them. I can't stand Craig, but I don't go on about it for years.

Well, if you go back in this thread, I was very mild with my criticism.

Every couple of weeks, someone is coming up and explains LTK‘s lack of success with the release date and with the marketing campaign. This creating of an alternative reality is nothing else than ignoring the big white elephant in the room:

Dalton was not widely accepted by the audiences back then. Timboys must deal with it and it‘s no coincidence that his movies both tanked in the box office.

To say that MR was a bad movie and not well received back then - and thus only has been saved by a marketing campaign is another attempt to walking in La-La Land, where Dalton is King!

I will always defend Roger Moore and his movies, but have no problems admitting that he was visibly too old in AVTAK (and OP but that‘s another story - hint NSNA).
I personally have no problem with that but can accept that the broad audiences saw it differently and that certainly affected the financial success of the movie.
So a large part of the lack of success for AVTAK lies there and I don‘t even try explaining it with release date, poster design, competition, marketing budget, writers, supporting acts etc.

It‘s time that Timboys man up and do the same.

Miami Vice was in its fifth year and was very popular on television, while Sly and Arnie were doing all those shoot-'em-up in film . . . That, and the grittiness and vigilante plot meant it was very timely. 

There's no getting away from the fact that summer 1989 was one of the biggest blockbuster seasons ever. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Dead Poets Society, Star Trek 5, Ghostbusters II, Batman, Honey I Shrunk the Kids, The Karate Kid III, Lethal Weapon 2 and When Harry Met Sally.

Actually, Miami Vice was on its way out.  The ratings had been declining for some time, as the show juggled producers and changed its style up enough to alienate a lot of the original viewers.  Beyond that, the whole "Latin American druglord" angle was played out.  It seemed fresh at the start of the 80s, when movies like Scarface were popular, but by the end, people were tired of it. 

In the 80s and well into the 90s, movies made huge box office from repeat viewings.  I saw Batman at least twice in the theater, for instance.  There was no shortage of box office dollars to be earned with the right film.  But just as audiences might pay to see one film two or three times, they might ignore another they thought wasn't worth it.

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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

DavidJones wrote:
Higgins wrote:

Still ignoring the big white elephant in the room?  ajb007/biggrin

What is the white elephant, then?

Seriously?
Are you reading previous posts?
Obviously not!

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

69

Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

Gassy Man wrote:

In the 80s and well into the 90s, movies made huge box office from repeat viewings.  I saw Batman at least twice in the theater, for instance.  There was no shortage of box office dollars to be earned with the right film.  But just as audiences might pay to see one film two or three times, they might ignore another they thought wasn't worth it.

ajb007/cheers  totally agree.

I have never understood the ‚competition argument‘.
Seeing movies in the cinemas was a main activity back then because nothing like it was shown on tv.

When your favorite musician released a new album, you bought it, no matter what the competition (new or established) brought - unless word of mouth was, that the new album was crap - which brings us back to the initial argument.

If there where 4 or 5 good movies, our choice was not, which one we don‘t want to see.
In my opinion, several good movies lift the market up and don‘t put single good movies down.

It‘s only the bad movies that suffer from competition!

Last edited by Higgins (9th Sep 2019 06:22)

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

70

Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

Higgins wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:

In the 80s and well into the 90s, movies made huge box office from repeat viewings.  I saw Batman at least twice in the theater, for instance.  There was no shortage of box office dollars to be earned with the right film.  But just as audiences might pay to see one film two or three times, they might ignore another they thought wasn't worth it.

ajb007/cheers  totally agree.

I have never understood the ‚competition argument‘.
Seeing movies in the cinemas was a main activity back then because nothing like it was shown on tv.

When your favorite musician released a new album, you bought it, no matter what the competition (new or established) brought - unless word of mouth was, that the new album was crap - which brings us back to the initial argument.

If there where 4 or 5 good movies, our choice was not, which one we don‘t want to see.
In my opinion, several good movies lift the market up and don‘t put single good movies down.

It‘s only the bad movies that suffer from competition!

I take it the "elephant in the room" is the idea that LTD wasn't a good film or that Dalton wasn't a good Bond?

The competition argument, I think, is a strong one. Not everyone are Bond "fans", as such; many are simply "viewers". Ticket prices aren't cheap and people may not be able to afford five or six trips to the cinema inside a single six week period, and they could well be busy with work etc. If they were married with kids, they might have had limited time for that sort of thing and have to pay for baby-sitters etc and only get to the cinema once every couple of months.

As for polls, it stands to reason that if people missed out on seeing Dalton's Bond then they won't have anything to go on and therefore won't vote for him. Equally, as Lazenby had only one film, people's affection for that film may shape their view of the actor in it.

My Top 10 Bonds: Octopussy, Goldeneye, From Russia With Love, Tomorrow Never Dies, Licence to Kill, For Your Eyes Only, The Living Daylights, Moonraker, Goldfinger and The Spy Who Loved Me.

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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

DavidJones wrote:

I take it the "elephant in the room" is the idea that LTD wasn't a good film or that Dalton wasn't a good Bond?

Errr ... No!  ajb007/rolleyes

As for the rest of your post, you still ignore the elephant in the room  ajb007/biggrin  and try to find alternative realities.

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

72

Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

Higgins wrote:
DavidJones wrote:

I take it the "elephant in the room" is the idea that LTD wasn't a good film or that Dalton wasn't a good Bond?

Errr ... No!  ajb007/rolleyes

As for the rest of your post, you still ignore the elephant in the room  ajb007/biggrin  and try to find alternative realities.

Fine, I'll bite. What is the elephant, then?

My Top 10 Bonds: Octopussy, Goldeneye, From Russia With Love, Tomorrow Never Dies, Licence to Kill, For Your Eyes Only, The Living Daylights, Moonraker, Goldfinger and The Spy Who Loved Me.

73

Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

Just read the previous posts, man  ajb007/mad

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!

74

Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

I have!  ajb007/insane  You think Dalton wasn't accepted by audiences. That's the elephant.

Last edited by DavidJones (9th Sep 2019 11:24)

My Top 10 Bonds: Octopussy, Goldeneye, From Russia With Love, Tomorrow Never Dies, Licence to Kill, For Your Eyes Only, The Living Daylights, Moonraker, Goldfinger and The Spy Who Loved Me.

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Re: What if Licence To Kill was released in the autumn of 1989?

https://ddppchicago.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/giphy.gif?w=665

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------
FIRST TO DISCOVER substantial evidence that Chew Mee is in fact not totally nude in the TMWTGG pool scenes!