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Re: No Time To Die

Revelator wrote:

Many people in this thread have already pointed out exactly what they disliked about the title--they're not obligated to go beyond this by doing someone else's job.

I don't think you're in danger of being taken up on your suggestions of better titles by Eon; I believe the other poster was simply
encouraging a thought exercise.  ajb007/lol

Revelator wrote:

Pre-production on the next Bond film usually starts soon after the release of the current one. So yes, scripts and treatments and titles have been worked on during the five year break.

And yet, this is what Purvis & Wade were saying as late as 2017. They did not seem to be on the clock by then - “The thing is...I’m just not sure how you would go about writing a James Bond film now. Each time, you’ve got to say something about Bond’s place in the world, which is Britain’s place in the world...with people like Trump, the Bond villain has become a reality. So when they do another one, it will be interesting to see how they deal with the fact that the world has become a fantasy.”

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Jarvio wrote:
AugustWalker wrote:


I really don't know why you're getting so hostile? All I was asking for was further titles (aside the usual ones) people would have found better than NTTD.

Like I said, many titles have been suggested. But also, we can't get full context of the film until we've seen it.

For example, DAD is also a generic title, and after seeing the film, an alternate title off the top of my head would be "Icarus".

‘Moonraker’ is probably the most fitting! ajb007/smile

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When and where did I say there were no titles better than NTTD?

I simply asked what were the other ones being floated about.

I also don't get your hostility over this. It's not like you have any horse in this race. Are you not going to watch this movie because you don't like what they called it? I highly doubt that.

I'll agree with you on one thing; liking anything is completely subjective and due to ones own personal taste. What someone thinks is amazing, someone else may think is crap. Nobody is wrong since they are only opinions.  ajb007/martini

Jarvio wrote:
Enjoying Death wrote:

You mention better titles out there.

What were they?

Jarvio wrote:

Like I said, many better titles have been thrown out there.

Which is why I hate the whole "let's see them do better" argument - because in their opinion, they HAVE done better.

Out of the actual rumoured titles:
A Reason To Die
Eclipse
Shatterhand

So that's basically all of them, except Genoma Of A Woman.

And then there's tonnes of other titles suggested by members, and/or Fleming titles and the like. These may not have relevance to the film though, but:
The Garden Of Death
The Death Collector
Risico
The Property Of A Lady
The Hildebrand Rarity

And I could keep going. But we need to know the context of the film, of course.

C'mon man, do you seriously think there are no titles out there that are better than "No Time To Die"? :/

It's all opinion, and of course we need to know the context of the film, but in many people's opinions there are many other options that would be better than NTTD.

Note that we do not know the context of the film, so titles like The Garden Of Death might not be relevant if the garden isn't in this film for example. We need to know the context of the film, something only the makers have true, full access to. And yet you think the generic NTTD is better than anything else? If that's really your opinion that's cool, but we have ours too.

As I said, NTTD might improve for me when I see the film and know the context.

Pussy Galore: “My name is Pussy Galore.”
Bond: “I must be dreaming.”

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Enjoying Death wrote:

I'll agree with you on one thing; liking anything is completely subjective and due to ones own personal taste. What someone thinks is amazing, someone else may think is crap. Nobody is wrong since they are only opinions. 

Thank you.

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Enjoying Death wrote:

When and where did I say there were no titles better than NTTD?

I simply asked what were the other ones being floated about.

I also don't get your hostility over this. It's not like you have any horse in this race. Are you not going to watch this movie because you don't like what they called it? I highly doubt that.

I'll agree with you on one thing; liking anything is completely subjective and due to ones own personal taste. What someone thinks is amazing, someone else may think is crap. Nobody is wrong since they are only opinions.  ajb007/martini

Jarvio wrote:
Enjoying Death wrote:

You mention better titles out there.

What were they?

Out of the actual rumoured titles:
A Reason To Die
Eclipse
Shatterhand

So that's basically all of them, except Genoma Of A Woman.

And then there's tonnes of other titles suggested by members, and/or Fleming titles and the like. These may not have relevance to the film though, but:
The Garden Of Death
The Death Collector
Risico
The Property Of A Lady
The Hildebrand Rarity

And I could keep going. But we need to know the context of the film, of course.

C'mon man, do you seriously think there are no titles out there that are better than "No Time To Die"? :/

It's all opinion, and of course we need to know the context of the film, but in many people's opinions there are many other options that would be better than NTTD.

Note that we do not know the context of the film, so titles like The Garden Of Death might not be relevant if the garden isn't in this film for example. We need to know the context of the film, something only the makers have true, full access to. And yet you think the generic NTTD is better than anything else? If that's really your opinion that's cool, but we have ours too.

As I said, NTTD might improve for me when I see the film and know the context.

First of all, apologies if I came across as hostile. It wasn't my intention, I wasn't angry at anyone, was just being direct. But sorry if it came across that way.

Secondly, just to be clear, I do not hate or even dislike the title - I just think it's very plain sounding compared to most others, but like I say, the context of the film might make me like it more, we'll see.

It is slowly warming on me anyway, but I was just hoping for something more unique sounding.

1 - Lald, 2 - Ltk, 3 - Avtak, 4 - Op, 5 - Dn, 6 - Fyeo, 7 - Tswlm, 8 - Daf, 9 - Sf, 10 - Ohmss, 11 - Yolt, 12 - Ge, 13 - Tld, 14 - Mr, 15 - Gf, 16 - Tb, 17 - Tmwtgg, 18 - Sp, 19 - Tnd, 20 - Dad, 21 - Twine, 22 - Frwl, 23 - Cr, 24 - Qos

1 - Moore, 2 - Dalton, 3 - Craig, 4 - Connery, 5 - Brosnan, 6 - Lazenby

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I'm with you Jarvio. It's a plain sounding, generic title, but perhaps it will grow on me with time. Meanwhile, the important thing is that NTTD be a good Bond film and a proper swan song for Craig. I'm looking forward to seeing it. ajb007/cheers

"Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."

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Above all else, the title is a marketing tool. I think it's a good title in that sense, even if it isn't all that creative and doesn't shake us up. It sounds like it has been successful in that the public think it sounds like a Bond film. That's important. I also have no doubt that the word "time" was included in the title to give it a sense of urgency. First of all, it gives the story a sense of urgency and adds some excitement, at least to those who aren't thinking about it in the way that we are. Also, marketers always want things to sound urgent. Including "Time" in the title as an indirect way of as saying, "There's no time to see Bond like the present", or rather 2 April 2020. They don't want you to buy another day.

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When was the last time a Bond film had a tagline? I don’t recall any for ages.

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emtiem wrote:

When was the last time a Bond film had a tagline? I don’t recall any for ages.

According to this article there were taglines for QOS and SF, but I am not familiar with them: https://hughlockwood.wordpress.com/2015 … the-years/

How about for the new film, "No Time to Die ... but plenty of time to live"?

Or "Has has no time to drink, no time to kill, no time to f*ck and ... No Time to Die".

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Perhaps the title song should be called 'some kind of hero'?

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Matt S wrote:
emtiem wrote:

When was the last time a Bond film had a tagline? I don’t recall any for ages.

According to this article there were taglines for QOS and SF, but I am not familiar with them: https://hughlockwood.wordpress.com/2015 … the-years/

How about for the new film, "No Time to Die ... but plenty of time to live"?

Or "Has has no time to drink, no time to kill, no time to f*ck and ... No Time to Die".

Hmm. Not sure about those. The TWINE one is just voiceover from the trailer, not the tagline.

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Blackleiter wrote:

Generic title. Disappointing. Yes, I was an advocate of “Shatterhand” as the title. “No Time to Die” could be anybody. “Shatterhand” is Bond!

No offense to Matt S, but I don't think "shat" or "shat her hand" when I hear Shatterhand any more than I think "lice" or "lice incense to kill" when I hear "Licence to Kill."  People can make puns or jokes out of the Bond titles pretty easily and without much effort -- just add "with Lesbians," for instance, to the end of any title and see what happens.  (No, that's not a swipe at sexual orientation; I'm just saying you can completely change the context of the title with a few words, and that change can be so distracting, it's funny.)

Speaking of adding a few words, that's the problem my ear has with "No Time to Die."  It's a very plain title.  Fleming's titles often either were a twist on common phrases -- Live and Let Live or You Only Live Once -- or names or inventions that by themselves were intriguing -- Goldfinger, Thunderball, The Hildebrand Rarity.  Sometimes he used unusual terms, like Risico or Moonraker.

Take a generic title of his that is enhanced with one word:  The Man with the Golden Gun.  Take Golden out, and it's incredibly plain.  The Man with the Gun.  Even one of his best titles, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, is improved because of the preposition On, which changes the context from a simple thing -- Her Majesty's Secret Service -- to an implied action -- "(Bond is) On Her Majesty's Secret Service.

No Time to Die has none of this.  It suggests an obvious spy movie theme, I suppose, and it sounds Bondian in a formulaic way.  That's why it could easily work as a parody of Bond titles.  But adding even one more word to the title could punch it up, especially given that the four-syllable phrase doesn't really have any rhythm to it.

No Good Time to Die
No More Time to Die
No Better Time to Die
No Proper Time to Die
No Other Time to Die

I'm not saying any of these titles is better in terms of how they sound because I've just thrown them together, without much wordsmithing.  And I'm sure some people would say they're worse for any number of reasons.  But my larger point is what makes No Time to Die so bland and generic is there's no hook right now.  There's no commentary, no insight.  From Russia with Love is ironic; Diamonds are Forever at least lampoons an advertising phrase; From a View to a Kill is something an assassin or a sniper would say.  No Time to Die is on the order of Die Another Day in the sense that it doesn't really say anything other than what it's literally saying. 

Of course, all this is moot because A) People will still go see a Bond movie even with a plain title -- we're well into the franchise, not at the beginning, and arguably they don't have to try as hard, and ajb007/cool Many people will end up liking the title if they like the movie, a sort of backwards reaction, as titles are really intended to get the audience's positive attention and not the other way around.

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gawrsh, I'm away from my computer for a week and look what happens!

Maybe the title means Bond won't be pulling a Logan in the last scene of the new film, as has so often been rumoured. So thatd be good, right?
...or maybe it means theres been so many bad rumours about "I'd rather slit my wrists" and other overpublicized "production woes" they feel the need to address the series survival with the title?


On the other hand, seriously, the precedents are dreadful. The two previous films with ...Die... in the title (not counting genuine Fleming) were the worst, most formulaic soulless action heavy plot absent entries in the series ... Revelator jokes about a Random Bond Title Generator, those two films were the product of a Random Bond Script Generator. If they're so worried about the series survival, they'd be doing well not to remind us of those two films.


There was much panic mongering over the last couple of months about the lack of a title announcement. Really, they would have done better to keep this one under wraps til the very last minute.
Supposing the title is actually somehow relevant to the plot... if they revealed the title the week before, we'd all go see the film a few days later and come home talking about how clever the title/plot relationship was. Big win for the filmmakers and their marketers!
But now that the title's out, there's approx. eight months still to go where we don't know how clever is this theoretical title/plot relationship, in which all we know is the Automatically Generated sounding title, in which time we're going to continue mocking it mercilessly. By the time the film comes out no-one's going to care if the title does turn out to means something, its alleged uncaring formulaic origin will have long been established and won't go away.

Last edited by caractacus potts (24th Aug 2019 01:16)

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Re: No Time To Die

caractacus potts wrote:

gawrsh, I'm away from my computer for a week and look what happens!

Maybe the title means Bond won't be pulling a Logan in the last scene of the new film, as has so often been rumoured. So thatd be good, right?
...or maybe it means theres been so many bad rumours about "I'd rather slit my wrists" and other overpublicized "production woes" they feel the need to address the series survival with the title?


On the other hand, seriously, the precedents are dreadful. The two previous films with ...Die... in the title (not counting genuine Fleming) were the worst, most formulaic soulless action heavy plot absent entries in the series ... Revelator jokes about a Random Bond Title Generator, those two films were the product of a Random Bond Script Generator. If they're so worried about the series survival, they'd be doing well not to remind us of those two films.


There was much panic mongering over the last couple of months about the lack of a title announcement. Really, they would have done better to keep this one under wraps til the very last minute.
Supposing the title is actually somehow relevant to the plot... if they revealed the title the week before, we'd all go see the film a few days later and come home talking about how clever the title/plot relationship was. Big win for the filmmakers and their marketers!
But now that the title's out, there's approx. eight months still to go where we don't know how clever is this theoretical title/plot relationship, in which all we know is the Automatically Generated sounding title, in which time we're going to continue mocking it mercilessly. By the time the film comes out no-one's going to care if the title does turn out to means something, its alleged uncaring formulaic origin will have long been established and won't go away.

Very good points here. I agree with pretty much all of it. I did say that maybe the context of the film might improve the title for me, which I still believe, but honestly, that is just because I'm trying to put in the effort to like it / get used to it. It would be nice if we had a great title where people didn't have to put in the effort to like it, but instead, just liked it anyway...

I've also been linking it as like a cross between Dr No and Live And Let Die, the two other bond films that had scenes filmed in Jamaica. But again, that's just me linking stuff to try and like this new title more...

1 - Lald, 2 - Ltk, 3 - Avtak, 4 - Op, 5 - Dn, 6 - Fyeo, 7 - Tswlm, 8 - Daf, 9 - Sf, 10 - Ohmss, 11 - Yolt, 12 - Ge, 13 - Tld, 14 - Mr, 15 - Gf, 16 - Tb, 17 - Tmwtgg, 18 - Sp, 19 - Tnd, 20 - Dad, 21 - Twine, 22 - Frwl, 23 - Cr, 24 - Qos

1 - Moore, 2 - Dalton, 3 - Craig, 4 - Connery, 5 - Brosnan, 6 - Lazenby

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Just something else I wanted to point out, this is more of a random thought on my part, and I said this earlier in the thread, but Ed Sheeran said ages ago that he had already written a bond song. He did this just in case the producers pick him to do a theme one day, that way he will have the song written straight away. Now, how can one write a bond song intended for a bond film that you have no idea what will be? Use generic bond lyrics and a generic bond title. Is No Time To Die the name of Ed Sheeran's bond song, and that's why they've chosen this title? I have my suspicions lol. But maybe I'm also way off. We will see, but if I turn out to be right, refer back to this post when the time comes lol.

1 - Lald, 2 - Ltk, 3 - Avtak, 4 - Op, 5 - Dn, 6 - Fyeo, 7 - Tswlm, 8 - Daf, 9 - Sf, 10 - Ohmss, 11 - Yolt, 12 - Ge, 13 - Tld, 14 - Mr, 15 - Gf, 16 - Tb, 17 - Tmwtgg, 18 - Sp, 19 - Tnd, 20 - Dad, 21 - Twine, 22 - Frwl, 23 - Cr, 24 - Qos

1 - Moore, 2 - Dalton, 3 - Craig, 4 - Connery, 5 - Brosnan, 6 - Lazenby

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Jarvio wrote:

I've also been linking it as like a cross between Dr No and Live And Let Die, the two other bond films that had scenes filmed in Jamaica.

that's an interesting connection, I hadn't thought of it, and yes its true, those are the two previous films actually filmed in Jamaica, so this one is linked to them. And you are wise to stay positive.

I think you had also linked the title to depression upthread, and if we get some version of the You Only Live Twice plot, as I know you and me would both like, that would make sense. In Fleming's plot, Bond had to find the will to live again to get his revenge, though he was pretty messed up til Tanaka showed him that photo. If he gave up before he saw the photo of Shatterhand, he never would have avenged Tracy, and Blofeld would have successfully carried on his evil ways.

We gotta gotta hope this title makes sense in context of the plot.

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HalfMonk HalfHitman wrote:

If you line up the uses of root words LIVE, DEATH, DIE, and KILL in the series:

1967
1973
1985
1987 (LIVING, but the root word is there, discard it if you like)
1989
1997
2002
2020

No Time To Die is the first time in 18 years* one of the words has been used. Seems silly to get worked up about it given past frequency.

*The QoS theme song sneaks it into its title, but I don't think that should count here.

This is intersting analysis, but by cherrypicking titles, masks some important patterns.

I would also link We Have All the Time in the World and Diamonds are Forever lyrics that reference mortality ("men are mere mortals who are not worth going to your grave for"), and the related The World is Not Enough (which is from Fleming, and is the dark corollary of "We Have All the Time in the World").

And in Fleming's Diamonds are Forever book, there is a very Chandleresque bit of philosophising on the final page about diamonds' longevity vs human lives (very similar to his pal Chandler's paragraph about the meaning of "the big sleep" near the end of that book). Sorry my books are packed away or I would quote. But I swear, that title is another reference to mortality.

But the whole life and death imagery in relation to 1) Bond's job as assassin 2) the risks to Bond's life and 3) the fate of the world ... are a constant theme in all the stories one way or another. Its just some titles reference this much more creatively than others.

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Re: No Time To Die

here's the pattern that is missed:

first of all there haven't been that many films made since the Brocolli kids took over, so that's three ...Die... films within nine films total, over 24 years.

In contrast, Live and Let Die is the only title with the word ...Die... in it in the first batch of films made by Cubby. And of course it's genuine Fleming, which does make a difference.
One title in sixteen films made over 27 years.
It was the eighth film title and eleven years after the series began (and had been 19 years since Fleming wrote the book and never used the word in a title again).

And it would be another 24 years and ten films til the word ...Die... was used again. So while Cubby was alive the word was only used once, and that was an authentic Fleming title. It wasn't til his kids were left in charge that it was used again for a second title.


Of the 25 films (counting this new one currently being filmed) there have been 17 Fleming titles used.
So eight original titles.
Of those, License to Kill, Goldeneye, the World is Not Enough, and SPECTRE are all taken from Fleming, even if they aren't Fleming titles per se.

Which leaves four fully original titles that the Brocolli kids came up with themselves. And of those, this is the third with the word ...Die... in the title.


SkyFall is the only completely original title they came up with that does not have the word ...Die... in it. And its a damn good one! Major props to them for that title. I wish they'd try again to come up with another truely good title like that one!



(NOTE: Never Say Never Again is of course another all-original Bond title, that doesn't have the word ...Die... in it. But as it was an unofficial film, EON can neither take the credit nor the blame for that one)

Last edited by caractacus potts (24th Aug 2019 03:59)

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No Good About Goodbye would have been good if it wasn't already kind of used.

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It's a great song, and of course I wish it had been used at the time, but if it was an actual title then lazy film critics would have their headlines write themselves.

"New Bond film is No Good" etc.

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Blackleiter wrote:

Generic title. Disappointing. Yes, I was an advocate of “Shatterhand” as the title. “No Time to Die” could be anybody. “Shatterhand” is Bond!

Agreed , I really liked the idea of Shatterhand as well. I reread YOLT a few years ago. Would have loved to see 007 choke the life out of Ernst Stavro Blofeld on screen.

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AugustWalker wrote:

Some people on here are disappointed with it, but rather than just moaning about it, maybe ... could give us their best shot instead  ajb007/confused

there have been many suggestions or titles over the last four years, both using Fleming quotes or original.
Number24 compiled a bunch of them in this thread.
I picked Motel Nymph, and still would rather see a film with that title. I can imagine more interesting plot possibilities opening up (so to speak) with my title than the one they have chosen!

There's also the fictional Bond title from the Simpsons: Yesterday Never Tomorrows, which is just about as good as the actual one they have chosen.
https://static.simpsonswiki.com/images/0/08/Yesterday_Never_Tomorrows.png

and when Craig makes Bond26 ten  years from now, I want them to use the title Never Say I'd Rather Slit My Wrists Again

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Matt S wrote:

...Like "No Time to Die", many Bond titles are interchangeable. Sometimes it's just a Fleming title with no relation to the film, like TSWLM or AVTAK (an altered Fleming title). LALD, FYEO and TLD are like NTTD in that they don't have any specific significance to the stories.

Live and Let Die I gotta concede does not mean anything within the plot of either the film or the book. The book has a very high body count, that's all I got.

The Spy Who Loved Me may not share the meaning of Fleming's book, but in the film refers to rival KGB agent Anya Amasova. There had been previous lady spies in the movies before, but none quite like Amasova (and Christopher Wood's novelisation shifted the focus almost entirely onto Anya's plot thread).
Carly Simon's lyrics do confuse the issue, seeming more relevant to the missing Vivienne Michel's relationship to Bond than Bond's relationship to Amasova.

For Your Eyes Only is definitely one that lost meaning between book and film. In the book, M was using his employee to take care of personal vengeance, thus it was a completely unofficial mission that did not technically exist. In the film, the M/Havelock personal relationship is not part of the adaptation, thus the film mission is a normal appropriate use of M's employee. (the personal relationship betwen M and a murdered friend, plus daughter, actually appears in the World is Not Enough).
Simply handing Bond a file labeled "For Your Eyes Only" does not replicate the meaning Fleming implied in that title.

Octopussy is completely forced. That said, Fleming himself really stretched including an octopus that would kill Smythe when Bond had given him the chance to discretely kill himself. Smythe could have just used a gun, but the octopus gave an excuse for Fleming to do more descriptions of tropical sealife.

A View to a Kill is not just meaningless in the context of the film, it's a typo!!!. Titles with typos that make it to the marketting stage are a sign of a sloppy movie altogether. (See also Tomorrow Never Dies)

the Living Daylights means something in both the short story and the film. Bond chooses not to kill the rival assassin as ordered, instead scaring "the living daylights" out of her. It means more in the book, where Bond resents being used as an assassin, and empathises more with his opposite number than he does with his own coworkers in the Service. His motive in the film is different, and more rational.
But the story was originally published under the title Berlin Escape, and the film changes the location to Prague. Fleming's first choice was Trigger Finger. I'm not convinced he ever planned it to be published under the title the Living Daylights?


You Only Live Twice is of course another one where they didn't use Fleming's meaning for the title, because they filmed the damn story out of order so the phrase was meaningless if not paradoxical! so instead they forced  in the otherwise irrelevant fake death in the precredits sequence.

and then there's Quantum of Solace .... ack, words fail me.

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caractacus potts wrote:
Matt S wrote:

...Like "No Time to Die", many Bond titles are interchangeable. Sometimes it's just a Fleming title with no relation to the film, like TSWLM or AVTAK (an altered Fleming title). LALD, FYEO and TLD are like NTTD in that they don't have any specific significance to the stories.

Live and Let Die I gotta concede does not mean anything within the plot of either the film or the book. The book has a very high body count, that's all I got.

The Spy Who Loved Me may not share the meaning of Fleming's book, but in the film refers to rival KGB agent Anya Amasova. There had been previous lady spies in the movies before, but none quite like Amasova (and Christopher Wood's novelisation shifted the focus almost entirely onto Anya's plot thread).
Carly Simon's lyrics do confuse the issue, seeming more relevant to the missing Vivienne Michel's relationship to Bond than Bond's relationship to Amasova.

For Your Eyes Only is definitely one that lost meaning between book and film. In the book, M was using his employee to take care of personal vengeance, thus it was a completely unofficial mission that did not technically exist. In the film, the M/Havelock personal relationship is not part of the adaptation, thus the film mission is a normal appropriate use of M's employee. (the personal relationship betwen M and a murdered friend, plus daughter, actually appears in the World is Not Enough).
Simply handing Bond a file labeled "For Your Eyes Only" does not replicate the meaning Fleming implied in that title.

Octopussy is completely forced. That said, Fleming himself really stretched including an octopus that would kill Smythe when Bond had given him the chance to discretely kill himself. Smythe could have just used a gun, but the octopus gave an excuse for Fleming to do more descriptions of tropical sealife.

A View to a Kill is not just meaningless in the context of the film, it's a typo!!!. Titles with typos that make it to the marketting stage are a sign of a sloppy movie altogether. (See also Tomorrow Never Dies)

the Living Daylights means something in both the short story and the film. Bond chooses not to kill the rival assassin as ordered, instead scaring "the living daylights" out of her. It means more in the book, where Bond resents being used as an assassin, and empathises more with his opposite number than he does with his own coworkers in the Service. His motive in the film is different, and more rational.
But the story was originally published under the title Berlin Escape, and the film changes the location to Prague. Fleming's first choice was Trigger Finger. I'm not convinced he ever planned it to be published under the title the Living Daylights?


You Only Live Twice is of course another one where they didn't use Fleming's meaning for the title, because they filmed the damn story out of order so the phrase was meaningless if not paradoxical! so instead they forced  in the otherwise irrelevant fake death in the precredits sequence.

and then there's Quantum of Solace .... ack, words fail me.

I don't think it's fair to compare title meaning in the book when we're talking about the films that have altered or unique stories. Just because a title has specific meaning in Fleming's story doesn't give meaning to its use in the film.

I have never heard of "A View to a Kill" being a typo. I thought the "From" was dropped on purpose. I know that TND was the result of a typo. TNL would have been much better.

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This movie title is hotly debated because it's so bland and uncontroversial  ajb007/biggrin